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13:04:40 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group
13:05:17 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Details 2026-02-19: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2026Feb/0016.html
13:05:18 <ivan> Chair: wendy
13:05:18 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group Telco
13:05:18 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2026Feb/0016.html
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14:04:09 <wendyreid> Topic: Horizontal Reviews
14:04:41 <duga> wendyreid: We did some preliminary stuff, and have started the i18n review, that is underway
14:04:59 <duga> ... leave a11y, security and privacy, and TAG review
14:05:20 <duga> ... AvneeshSingh has volunteered for a11y
14:05:37 <ivan> present+ elizabeth
14:05:54 <duga> ... toshiakikoike has volunteered for TAG
14:06:09 <duga> ... that leaves security and privacy
14:06:40 <ivan> q+
14:06:41 <duga> ... each review comes with a questionaire we just need to update it for the current core specs
14:06:50 <duga> ... it does not include annotations
14:06:50 <wendyreid> ack ivan
14:07:27 <duga> ivan: Maybe. in i18n they have said they want a new one
14:07:53 <duga> ... so for that I copied it and reviewed, then added some intro text about new things/changes
14:08:15 <duga> ... it is a question of whether the target groups will accept this approach
14:08:35 <duga> wendyreid: In that case, they have changed the process. They didn't have the self questionnaire
14:08:48 <duga> ivan: They did
14:08:48 <AvneeshSingh> q+
14:09:00 <duga> wendyreid: Yes, but it just needs to be updated
14:09:23 <duga> ivan: They are also looking for an overview/explainer to describe the spec
14:09:49 <duga> ... we have an overview with 3.3, which I have updated (PR coming)
14:10:00 <duga> ... That is a good reference if they ask for it
14:10:01 <wendyreid> ack AvneeshSingh
14:10:11 <duga> AvneeshSingh: Timeline? When is CR?
14:10:41 <duga> ivan: This is a vicious circle. We can go to CR when reviews are done
14:10:50 <sueneu> q+
14:11:09 <duga> ... Unless things change with today's discussion
14:11:28 <sueneu> +1 Avneesh
14:11:30 <sueneu> q-
14:11:43 <duga> AvneeshSingh: Can we pick a date?
14:11:50 <duga> ivan: I would say June 1
14:14:02 <duga> duga: I volunteer to have one assigned to me
14:14:19 <gautierchomel> q+
14:14:23 <wendyreid> ack gautierchomel
14:14:36 <duga> gautierchomel: I will do one
14:14:45 <duga> wendyreid: Security or priacy?
14:14:58 <ivan> s/priacy/privacy/
14:15:05 <duga> gautierchomel: I will take privacy
14:15:18 <duga> wendyreid: Ok, great, that is all we needed
14:15:49 <duga> ivan: Please reach out to me and wendyreid for details
14:15:58 <wendyreid> Topic: Supporting multi-granularity highlighting - https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2917
14:16:27 <duga> wendyreid: There has been of a lot of discussion on the issue
14:16:40 <duga> ... does anyone have a summary?
14:16:52 <Hadrien> https://www.audible.com/about/newsroom/audible-launches-immersion-reading-for-deeper-engagement-with-books
14:16:56 <duga> Hadrien: I can, first some news
14:17:10 <duga> ... audible allowing basically media overlays
14:17:27 <duga> ... we are very focused on trade
14:17:39 <duga> ... but specialty libraries are largely adopting epub
14:18:06 <duga> ... even in the more classic retail apps we are seeing this more
14:18:21 <duga> ... we haven't really looked at this the right way until now
14:18:52 <duga> ... we need to allow users to puck granularity
14:19:11 <duga> ... it would be great for users to control this
14:19:18 <duga> ... so e.g. sentence plus word
14:19:27 <GeorgeK> q+
14:19:32 <duga> ... or maybe just sentence because word is distracting
14:19:46 <duga> ... it is possible now with TTS but not media overlays
14:19:57 <duga> ... we don't need much for that feature
14:20:16 <duga> ... we have all the tools we need from a techincal level (epub:type, etc)
14:20:30 <duga> ... what we don't have is the epub:types
14:20:33 <duga> ... we don'
14:21:01 <duga> ... t need word, most of the discussion has been over bikeshedding names
14:21:14 <duga> ... What I care about is number of options.
14:21:45 <duga> ... We want to limit the number for reading systems, and P, sentence and word are most used in TTS
14:22:14 <duga> ... At the end of the day the user can't determine what is in the SMIL, so if these are not used perfectly it doesn't matter to the user
14:22:32 <duga> ... they will just get whatever 3 things the author chose to mark uo
14:22:48 <duga> ... so we can either bike shed forever, or pick three suboptimal terms
14:22:54 <wendyreid> ack GeorgeK
14:23:16 <duga> GeorgeK: We need a requirement to turn off the highlighting, as it can trigger epilepsy
14:23:40 <duga> ... that has been implemented in several RSes, but we need to note that
14:23:45 <Hadrien> +1 to what GeorgeK said, the ability to turn off or customize highlighting is key
14:24:17 <duga> wendyreid: we should also discuss, we are pushing away from epub:type, and this leans into it
14:24:21 <ivan> q+
14:24:24 <wendyreid> ack ivan
14:24:36 <duga> Hadrien: Do we have anything else for SMIL?
14:24:52 <duga> ivan: Now that we are xhtml only it isn't much of a problem
14:24:58 <AvneeshSingh> q+
14:25:02 <wendyreid> ack AvneeshSingh
14:25:06 <duga> ... epub:type is here to stay
14:25:31 <CharlesL> q+
14:25:34 <duga> AvneeshSingh: FYI GeorgeK and I have proposed a topicin the June DAISY roundtable
14:25:52 <duga> ... what we are hearing from specialist libraries is diverse
14:26:00 <Hadrien> q+
14:26:04 <wendyreid> q+
14:26:09 <duga> ... some are saying media overlays are too expensive
14:26:33 <duga> ... others think having so many levels is hard
14:26:47 <duga> ... many are just going to AI to generate the overlay content
14:27:09 <duga> ... so we thought it would be a good to discuss at the roundtable
14:27:29 <duga> CharlesL: On the bike shedding topic, we can just small/med/large it
14:27:35 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
14:27:39 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
14:28:00 <GeorgeK> q+
14:28:02 <duga> Hadrien: Yeah, we can call it something general. We just need to call it something. It has to make sense for the UI
14:28:16 <duga> ... I don't really care, I just want it to be usable
14:28:30 <duga> ... for production, we are seeing tools that do this automatically
14:28:53 <duga> ... there are whole communitees around it, so cost isn't really a problem
14:29:04 <duga> ... I don't think the TTS issue is valid
14:29:22 <duga> ... even the best models need to be online and paid
14:29:35 <duga> ... There are some that can be used on device, but they are limited
14:29:47 <duga> ... so if you don't pre-generate you will be stuck with what is on device
14:30:06 <duga> ... I don't think this is one or the other
14:30:36 <duga> ... Audible is doing the alignment early
14:31:02 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
14:31:14 <duga> wendyreid: Both things are true about TTS
14:31:17 <GeorgeK> q?
14:31:45 <duga> ... some people are currently using computer generated audio in audiobooks
14:32:11 <duga> ... mostyl for front matter
14:32:24 <sueneu> s/mostyl/mostly
14:32:40 <duga> ... for audible, it is some sort if internal alignment, not media overlays
14:32:54 <duga> ... you need to do a lot of smart things to align the text and audio
14:32:54 <sueneu> s/communitees/communities
14:33:13 <Hadrien> q+
14:33:13 <duga> ... on to CharlesL, I like small/.medium/large
14:33:27 <duga> ... I wonder if the RS should be allowed to combine and group?
14:34:02 <wendyreid> ack GeorgeK
14:34:02 <duga> ... e.g. line-by-line that can't be embedded in the epub as it depends on viewport etc
14:34:14 <duga> ... so I am not sure about embedding, but could go either way
14:34:37 <duga> GeorgeK: Do we have an example we can show at the Oslo event [DAISY roundtable]
14:34:43 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
14:35:05 <duga> Hadrien: Yes, we will have something that works in thorium mobile for Oslo
14:35:12 <duga> ... the problem is no files
14:35:33 <duga> ... in the issue we have tools authors saying they will do it, regardless of what we decide
14:35:58 <duga> ... they would prefer to have us define it, but they will do their own thing if they need to
14:36:06 <duga> ... but we can certainly demo this
14:36:23 <duga> ... I know at least one retailer that really wants to do this with media overlays
14:36:39 <duga> ... so an audiobook and ebook could be bundled and synced
14:36:50 <duga> q+
14:37:08 <duga> ... I can't name or give timelines, but there is interest
14:37:18 <duga> ... (this is a platform)
14:37:59 <duga> ... we have people chiming in to say "no, we can't do it on device"
14:38:08 <duga> ... so for now it needs to be authored
14:38:23 <shiestyle> q+
14:38:31 <wendyreid> ack duga
14:38:34 <duga> ... not a very big additoon to the spec
14:38:39 <wendyreid> scribe+ sueneu
14:39:04 <sueneu> duga: this is a lot of markup authors will have to do
14:39:05 <sueneu> …its a lot of tagging
14:39:06 <Hadrien> q+
14:39:21 <sueneu> …aren't there accessibility issues on readaloud when
14:39:39 <sueneu> …there is a lot of arbitrary markup around words and sentences?
14:39:45 <wendyreid> qq+
14:39:59 <sueneu> …are there other issues that might come up with searching, for instance
14:40:06 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
14:40:06 <Zakim> wendyreid, you wanted to react to duga
14:40:15 <sueneu> …when you start tagging every word in a book, problems may arise
14:40:17 <duga> wendyreid: yes, there are potential problems
14:40:42 <duga> ... a lot of those engines are doing better, sometimes screen readers have issues with a lot of spans
14:40:59 <duga> ... like too much pausing, but that is also smoothing out since there is a lot of that on the web
14:41:20 <duga> ... so this comes down to robust testing
14:41:37 <duga> ... If it is too bad you might want to have multiple versions
14:41:38 <CharlesL> q+
14:41:52 <duga> ... it is a valid concern but it is going away
14:41:55 <wendyreid> ack shiestyle
14:42:22 <duga> shiestyle: If we add this to epub, publishers or authors can specify this level of granularity
14:42:34 <duga> ... but I don't understand why they would
14:42:47 <wendyreid> q+ to ask about whether we need flags to RS to determine what levels are available
14:42:50 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
14:42:54 <duga> ... if RSes can allow you to select, that is fine, but I don't see why pubs need this
14:43:13 <duga> Hadrien: You are assuming this happens at prod time but it often happens later
14:43:22 <duga> ... eg at a specialist library
14:43:45 <duga> ... you are both assuming this happens at prod time, which is wrong
14:43:57 <duga> ... to duga, this is already being done
14:44:06 <Hadrien> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2934
14:44:14 <duga> ... I agree that divs and spans is not ideal
14:44:35 <duga> ... I have suggested something for discussion at another time that would avoid the tag soup
14:44:58 <duga> ... to shiestyle, this can't be done only by the RS, this has to be done beforehand
14:45:00 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
14:45:07 <duga> ... probably by specialist libraries
14:45:42 <duga> CharlesL: This reminds me of another reader that uses difference colors for highlighting, which changes as you read along
14:46:07 <duga> ... initially they did it with char by char, and it made screen readers stutter
14:46:18 <duga> ... so they did something to fix it
14:46:18 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
14:46:18 <Zakim> wendyreid, you wanted to ask about whether we need flags to RS to determine what levels are available
14:46:59 <duga> wendyreid: Traditionally media overlay is just play/pause
14:47:08 <duga> ... this has a lot of other options
14:47:18 <Hadrien> q+
14:47:51 <duga> ... how do we signal the different levels of granularity being there? I assume we don't want to force parsing of SMIL to figure out what is available
14:47:54 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
14:48:17 <duga> Hadrien: We don't want 2 affordance for TTS and media overlay
14:48:43 <duga> ... so just "give me audio". For this we will do our best to give what the user wants for both kinds
14:49:00 <duga> ... if the info is missing there isn't much we can do, but I think that is ok
14:49:33 <duga> ... It is better to treat this as a pref for audio, instead of explaining what media overlay is
14:49:57 <duga> wendyreid: That makes sense
14:49:59 <duga> q+
14:50:13 <duga> .. especially if you bought the book
14:50:22 <wendyreid> ack duga
14:50:51 <sueneu> duga: I am have already ignored the marker you put in for granular media overlays because I know you did it wrogn
14:51:13 <sueneu> …I do not believe publishers are going to change this for every book
14:51:35 <sueneu> …the only way to be sure about this is to parse the SMIL
14:51:54 <duga> wendyreid: vibe check
14:52:23 <duga> ... I like s/m/l, or some other similar name. But yes to 3 tiers
14:52:24 <Hadrien> q+
14:52:28 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
14:52:46 <duga> Hadrien: We just need 2 new ones
14:52:50 <ivan> q+
14:52:55 <wendyreid> ack ivan
14:52:58 <duga> ... the third isn't needed for processing
14:53:12 <duga> ivan: Don't you need zero?
14:53:21 <duga> Hadrien: <par> with nothing is zero
14:53:23 <sueneu> +1 to s/m/l or just s/l
14:54:08 <duga> wendyreid: with MO people mark up every word? Is that required or just what people do?
14:54:26 <Hadrien> q+
14:54:29 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
14:54:37 <duga> ... can someone now pick a different base unit? e.g. sentence
14:54:47 <duga> Hadrien: We don't know right now
14:55:08 <duga> ... books targeting kids use word, adults use sentence
14:55:26 <DaleRogers> q+
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14:55:34 <duga> ... if you use more types with a container you are giving an intent
14:55:54 <wendyreid> ack DaleRogers
14:56:21 <duga> DaleRogers: From a text based Eng point of view, how does this relate to other langs, e.g. Japanese?
14:56:28 <ivan> q+
14:56:44 <duga> Hadrien: That is where word gets fuzzy, but we don't care since it isn't named
14:56:54 <duga> ... sentence is a little fuzzy but not too bad
14:56:55 <wendyreid> ack ivan
14:57:21 <CharlesL> q+
14:57:26 <duga> ivan: This is why the proposal to ignore linguistic notions has been made
14:57:28 <wendyreid> unit/segment/section?
14:57:31 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
14:57:58 <duga> CharlesL: I am struggling to understand why we don't need 3? Don't we need them all? Is small default?
14:58:20 <duga> Hadrien: It is not word, it is just the smallest, and you know that because it is contained by the other types
14:58:39 <duga> CharlesL: Does that help with tag soup?
14:58:51 <duga> Hadrien: No, you still need it, just no epub:type for small
14:59:23 <duga> ... I don't care about the name
15:00:40 <duga> wendyreid: We are at time, maybe discuss in the issue
15:00:46 <duga> ... and we can finalize next time
15:01:00 <duga> ivan: Maybe vote now on direction
15:01:05 <duga> wendyreid: sorry, at time!
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15:01:29 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:01:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/02/19-pmwg-minutes.html ivan
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