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13:02:30 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group
13:03:03 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Details 2026-02-12: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2026Feb/0011.html
13:03:04 <ivan> Chair: wendy
13:03:04 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group Telco
13:03:04 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2026Feb/0011.html
13:58:37 <ivan> present+
13:58:47 <ivan> present+ george
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14:02:17 <ivan> present+ DaleRogers
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14:03:03 <wendyreid> Topic: Annotations
14:03:27 <sueneu> wendyreid: we wanted to talk briefly about the open PR for the selectors
14:03:42 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/2912
14:03:48 <sueneu> …and if everyone is good with that, then we can move on to talking about the first public working draft
14:04:21 <sueneu> ivan: I'm picking up this PR for Laurent who is on vacation. This PR makes the old one obsolete
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14:04:42 <sueneu> …I recorded the list of selectors we agreed on two weeks ago
14:04:43 <Hadrien> present+
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14:04:52 <sueneu> …there are two issues for discussion
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14:05:02 <CharlesL> present+
14:05:25 <sueneu> …we discussed one last time, how to handle the text fragment
14:05:33 <sueneu> …we didn't agree on how to do that
14:05:47 <sueneu> …so I added two approaches, it would be best to remove one of them
14:06:21 <sueneu> …I removed some of the selectors from our table, and added text fragment selector
14:06:40 <sueneu> …it has two downsides, it is not yet a standard, and we don't know when it will be
14:06:54 <sueneu> …we don't know if the syntax will stay on or if it will change
14:07:02 <sueneu> …causing issues
14:07:26 <sueneu> …if it is a URL it has to be encoded, which would make the text fragment pretty much unreadable
14:07:42 <sueneu> …we have a quote selector in the original text
14:08:06 <sueneu> …I added that with a note that it is up to the implementers to decide if they want to use it and how
14:08:24 <sueneu> …there are two advantages to leaving this to the implementers
14:08:40 <sueneu> …the person quoting can set the quote
14:08:51 <sueneu> …and we don't have to worry about the syntax change
14:09:02 <sueneu> …but we are pushing this into the reading system's court
14:09:09 <wendyreid> q?
14:09:30 <sueneu> …the second problem: we discussed the text position selector
14:09:51 <sueneu> …which counts characters and selects the text between two integers.
14:09:57 <LaurentLM> q+
14:09:58 <sueneu> …how do we do this in HTML
14:10:24 <sueneu> …the text position selector was intended for pure text files
14:12:05 <sueneu> …there is normative text that would work and is applied to a different selector and doesn't apply here
14:12:13 <wendyreid> ack LaurentLM
14:12:23 <sueneu> …all other things are editorial and don't need discussion
14:12:49 <duga> q+
14:13:15 <sueneu> LaurentLM: The text must be selected before using the text position selector
14:13:39 <sueneu> …when I read the two sections, quote selector, and text position selector
14:14:39 <sueneu> …there is a conditional approach, if you have to work with copyrighted protected contents, use the text position selector, otherwise use the quote selector
14:14:42 <wendyreid> ack duga
14:15:08 <sueneu> ivan: I understand now, my comments are withdrawn
14:15:13 <Hadrien> q+
14:15:43 <sueneu> duga: the normalization is ugly, but its OK, because that's what the original text says
14:15:58 <sueneu> …but its not clear where the text stream starts
14:16:18 <sueneu> …where do I get the position for the overall text
14:16:41 <sueneu> LaurentLM: I agree that we should specify the text origin
14:17:24 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
14:17:38 <sueneu> duga: perhaps it is the inner text of the closest element that we are talikng about, if it there isn't one then it is body.
14:18:00 <sueneu> Hadrien: I don't want to do the second option, I don't want to have to process all of the text before I start
14:18:20 <sueneu> …the risk of the syntax changing for text fragment isn't very big
14:18:32 <sueneu> …it is widely used, and the people working on this know that
14:19:01 <sueneu> wendreid: where does this leave us?
14:19:21 <sueneu> ivan: we have a three way answer for this
14:19:36 <sueneu> …1. we keep it as it is in the PR
14:19:50 <LaurentLM> q+
14:20:18 <wendyreid> ack LaurentLM
14:20:25 <ivan> 1. We keep text fragments in both places
14:20:45 <ivan> 2. remove it from the fragment selector
14:20:57 <sueneu> Laurent: In both cases you have the string you want to use
14:21:00 <ivan> 3. we remove it from the text quote selector
14:21:30 <sueneu> LaurentLM: with the text fragment selector you can keep just the begining and the end
14:21:46 <sueneu> …the choice we've got is not between different models, it is
14:22:01 <duga> q+
14:22:05 <wendyreid> ack duga
14:22:05 <sueneu> …between a syntax that is within the specification but not widely known
14:22:21 <sueneu> …and with one that is widely known but not part of the specifcation
14:22:25 <ivan> q+
14:22:35 <wendyreid> ack ivan
14:22:42 <sueneu> duga: I think we should choose one, and keep in mind we might need to switch
14:22:58 <sueneu> ivan: I almost agree with Brady, it is safer to keep the text quote selector
14:23:17 <sueneu> …we push the specification out of the problem
14:23:30 <sueneu> duga: as long as we pick one I'm happy
14:23:57 <sueneu> ivan: the annotation standard we develop is for exchanging annotations between systems
14:24:21 <duga> q+
14:24:24 <sueneu> …it is not about the styling, and the text quote selector will be much more readable
14:24:26 <wendyreid> ack duga
14:25:00 <sueneu> duga: the text fragment selector is probably better defined
14:25:13 <LaurentLM> q+
14:25:20 <wendyreid> ack LaurentLM
14:25:21 <sueneu> …having a well defined algorithm is important, but that is a guess
14:25:38 <sueneu> LaurentLM: I agree with Brady, the text fragment selector seems well written
14:25:53 <sueneu> …but the quote selector is not
14:26:16 <sueneu> …in the text fragment selector you can leave the middle unsaid
14:26:32 <sueneu> duga: that is a huge difference when we talk about copyright.
14:26:51 <sueneu> …some systems use precentage of the book for copyright
14:27:19 <sueneu> …with the fragment selector, we wouldn't be using up so much of the text
14:27:44 <sueneu> ivan: readability is not an option in the HTML spec
14:27:54 <LaurentLM> q+
14:27:58 <wendyreid> ack LaurentLM
14:28:01 <sueneu> ivan: I change my vote, and propose we remove the quote selector from our spec
14:28:11 <GeorgeK> q+
14:28:14 <Hadrien> q+
14:28:21 <ivan> q+
14:28:22 <wendyreid> ack GeorgeK
14:28:24 <sueneu> LaurentLM: at the time we want to close the recommendation if there is not standard, should we plan now for what we will do?
14:29:29 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
14:29:58 <sueneu> GeorgeK: publishers in education use both EPUB reading systems and HTML reading systems. Using quote selector would bridge those systems
14:30:13 <LaurentLM> q+
14:30:33 <wendyreid> ack ivan
14:30:36 <sueneu> Hadrien: I think we shouldn't publish this if the syntax isn't final. I think it is fine to wait a bit more, there is no reason to rush
14:30:56 <sueneu> ivan: I'm not sure I understand what Hardrien said
14:31:26 <sueneu> Hadrien: I am responding to LaurentLM's question
14:31:42 <sueneu> ivan: we can make a note in the spec now about the possible fallback
14:32:00 <wendyreid> ack LaurentLM
14:32:04 <sueneu> …today we should try to publish a spec that is as close as we can to what we want for its final form
14:32:35 <sueneu> LaurentLM: if the text fragment syntax isn't finalized, I think we should still publish at the end of the year
14:32:40 <duga> q+
14:32:48 <sueneu> Hadrien: but it doesn't need to be normative
14:33:01 <ivan> q+
14:33:08 <wendyreid> ack duga
14:33:11 <sueneu> wendyreid: we could leave the annotation spec in the same state as the text fragment spec, as a working group note
14:33:30 <sueneu> duga: when should we worry about this? we should wait until it was an issue
14:33:40 <sueneu> …rather than solving all possible outcomes
14:34:01 <sueneu> …I think it is too early to worry about it
14:34:03 <wendyreid> ack ivan
14:34:22 <sueneu> ivan: we should move on publishing to the first working draft
14:34:30 <sueneu> …we get the horizontal reviews
14:34:52 <sueneu> …at some point we can say that we suspend the work because we are waiting on a dependent spec
14:35:33 <sueneu> …for the time being we should move ahead believing that the syntax will be resolved
14:35:53 <sueneu> wendyreid: our next step is to decide we can announce this as a first draft
14:36:00 <sueneu> …we can still make changes
14:36:15 <sueneu> …this is a good time to publish the first draft and invite feedback
14:36:32 <ivan> q+
14:36:35 <sueneu> …is there any opposition to publishing this?
14:37:03 <sueneu> ivan: I don't oppose this. There are two more documents that we may want to publish at some point
14:37:18 <sueneu> …1. the use case document
14:37:30 <sueneu> …we might want to publish this at the same time
14:37:36 <ivan> -> vocab https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/2922
14:37:38 <sueneu> …the other one is
14:37:41 <wendyreid> ack ivan
14:38:06 <sueneu> …I have been developing the vocabulary in parallel
14:38:27 <sueneu> …it might be good to publish this together because the annotation has references to it
14:38:48 <sueneu> …and to make the links live properly, we would need to have the vocabulary document live
14:39:05 <sueneu> wendyreid: is the vocabulary a note?
14:39:27 <sueneu> …we have to publish this as a working draft, and develop a short name
14:40:11 <sueneu> LaurentLM: is the a problem with "ann"
14:40:26 <sueneu> duga: it looks alot like "announcements"
14:40:42 <sueneu> LaurentLM: "annot"? is less confusing?
14:41:21 <sueneu> ivan: i would go with epub-anno
14:41:35 <sueneu> wendyreid: that would be consistent with our pattern
14:41:49 <sueneu> ivan: there is one more question, do we want to add a version number?
14:41:59 <sueneu> …if so, 1.0 or 3.4?
14:42:19 <sueneu> LaurentLM: I would go with 3.4 since it is related to EPUB 3.4
14:42:31 <sueneu> ivan: the version number would go in the title
14:42:35 <mgarrish> q+
14:42:55 <sueneu> shinya: since the accessibility is 1.2, 1.0 is good
14:43:19 <sueneu> magarrish: if this is revision bound with 3.4 then I have no problem with it
14:43:26 <AvneeshSingh> EPUB accessibility is independent of EPUB 3 version.
14:43:36 <duga> q+
14:43:45 <wendyreid> ack mgarrish
14:44:06 <wendyreid> ack duga
14:44:09 <sueneu> LaurentLM: if we don't modify epub, why would we push annotations changes
14:44:23 <shiestyle> +1 to duga
14:44:37 <sueneu> duga: it seems like 1.0 makes more sense, then we can update annotations without updating EPUB specs
14:44:47 <wendyreid> Proposed: Publish EPUB Annotations 1.0 as a FPWD, with the shortname epub-anno
14:44:51 <shiestyle> +1
14:44:51 <CharlesL> +1
14:44:53 <ivan> +1
14:44:53 <wendyreid> +1
14:44:53 <DaleRogers> +1
14:44:54 <duga> +1
14:44:54 <mgarrish> +1
14:44:54 <Hadrien> +1
14:44:54 <LaurentLM> +1
14:44:55 <toshiakikoike> +1
14:44:57 <sueneu> +1
14:44:57 <gman> +1
14:44:58 <rdeltour> +1
14:44:59 <AvneeshSingh> +1
14:45:00 <MasakazuKitahara> +1
14:45:04 <wendyreid> RESOLVED: Publish EPUB Annotations 1.0 as a FPWD, with the shortname epub-anno
14:45:08 <GeorgeK> +1
14:45:50 <wendyreid> Proposed: Publish the EPUB Annotations Vocabulary as a draft note, with the shortname epub-anno-vocab
14:45:52 <GeorgeK> +1
14:45:54 <wendyreid> +1
14:45:54 <sueneu> +1
14:45:54 <CharlesL> +1
14:45:54 <mgarrish> +1
14:45:55 <shiestyle> +1
14:45:56 <ivan> +1
14:45:56 <duga> +1
14:45:57 <DaleRogers> +1
14:45:58 <toshiakikoike> +1
14:45:58 <gman> +1
14:45:59 <Hadrien> +1
14:46:00 <AvneeshSingh> +1
14:46:00 <LaurentLM> +1
14:46:02 <MasakazuKitahara> +1
14:46:03 <rdeltour> +1
14:46:06 <wendyreid> RESOLVED: Publish the EPUB Annotations Vocabulary as a draft note, with the shortname epub-anno-vocab
14:46:26 <sueneu> ivan: is the use CR ready to publish?
14:46:34 <sueneu> LaurentLM: yes it is stable
14:46:35 <ivan> s/CR/UCR/
14:47:21 <wendyreid> Proposed: Publish the EPUB Annotations Use Cases document as a working group note, with the shortname epub-anno-ucr
14:47:24 <shiestyle> +1
14:47:24 <mgarrish> +1
14:47:26 <wendyreid> +1
14:47:26 <ivan> +1
14:47:27 <LaurentLM> +1
14:47:27 <CharlesL> +1
14:47:28 <toshiakikoike> +1
14:47:28 <gman> +1
14:47:28 <duga> +1
14:47:28 <rdeltour> +1
14:47:28 <sueneu> +1
14:47:30 <DaleRogers> +1
14:47:32 <MasakazuKitahara> +1
14:47:32 <GeorgeK> +1
14:47:32 <Hadrien> +1
14:47:35 <AvneeshSingh> +1
14:47:43 <wendyreid> RESOLVED: Publish the EPUB Annotations Use Cases document as a working group note, with the shortname epub-anno-ucr
14:49:02 <wendyreid> Topic: Multi-granularity highlighting in media overlays
14:49:14 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2917
14:49:25 <sueneu> Hadrien: a number of specialized libraries are moving away from Daisy
14:49:41 <sueneu> …they are using media overlays with human or computer audio
14:50:07 <sueneu> …they are using tools that can generate a media overlay with open source voices
14:50:30 <sueneu> …audiobook publishers are interested in this technology too
14:50:41 <sueneu> …usually we just talk about media overlays in kids books
14:50:48 <sueneu> but there is a wider use
14:51:16 <sueneu> …the technologies are using different levels of highlighting and aligning
14:51:34 <sueneu> …you may want to choose the level of alignment
14:51:48 <sueneu> …it wouldn't take very much to do this
14:52:06 <sueneu> …we would need additional roles in epub type that identify structures
14:52:19 <sueneu> …I use "utterance"
14:52:47 <sueneu> …thanks to the use of seq plus [?] plus epub type it would be easy to do
14:53:03 <sueneu> …it would be a non normative change in that it only adds vocabulary
14:53:14 <sueneu> …and would be backward compaitible
14:53:43 <sueneu> …for reading systems that are aware of this, it could allow users to make a choice between word by word or other anchoring
14:54:00 <sueneu> …we would probably see tools and reading systems capable of this in the short term
14:54:08 <wendyreid> q+
14:54:26 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
14:54:38 <sueneu> …this will add value, is compatible with existing implementations, and we have commitments for reading system support and production
14:55:07 <Hadrien> q+
14:55:15 <sueneu> wendyreid: I've seen this. I am concern about the nesting required
14:55:25 <sueneu> …is that feasible in a media overlay file?
14:55:46 <sueneu> …the other concern is does this need to be a production concern?
14:56:02 <LaurentLM> q+
14:56:21 <sueneu> …can reading systems detect this? Can they identify a part of a document as a paragraph, say?
14:56:48 <sueneu> …a third concern is internationalization, since not all languages have the same word boundaries as, say, English
14:56:54 <ivan> q+
14:57:06 <shiestyle> q?
14:57:11 <shiestyle> ack Hadrien
14:57:15 <LaurentLM> q-
14:57:39 <sueneu> Hadrien: about production: many files already wrap words and containers for utterance
14:57:47 <sueneu> …what is missing is the role in SMIL
14:57:53 <mgarrish> q+
14:57:55 <sueneu> …it is completely automatable
14:58:18 <sueneu> …the second question: it would be challenging to do this on the reading system side
14:58:36 <sueneu> …for instance tts is not always acurate
14:59:15 <sueneu> Hadrien: we don't need to worry about internationalization if we use something like utterance which is pretty open
14:59:15 <shiestyle> q?
14:59:18 <shiestyle> ack ivan
14:59:35 <sueneu> ivan: a formal question: you are asking for new values for the role
15:02:12 <shiestyle> shiestyle: let's continue this topic next week
15:02:15 <sueneu> shiestyle: we are out of time, we can continue this disucsion
15:02:40 <sueneu> s/disucsion/discussion
15:03:05 <shiestyle> zakim, end the meeting
15:03:05 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been ivan, george, avneeshsingh, toshiakikoike, sueneu, wendyreid, shiestyle, mgarrish, MasakazuKitahara, duga, LaurentLM, kimberg, gman,
15:03:08 <Zakim> ... DaleRogers, GeorgeK, rdeltour, Hadrien, CharlesL
15:03:08 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
15:03:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/02/12-pmwg-minutes.html Zakim
15:03:18 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, shiestyle; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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15:16:20 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:16:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/02/12-pmwg-minutes.html ivan
15:17:20 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
15:17:20 <RRSAgent> I see no action items