15:55:09 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #coga
15:55:14 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/02/12-coga-irc
15:55:14 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:55:15 <Zakim> Meeting: Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:55:22 <julierawe> meeting: COGA Guidance Subgroup
15:55:27 <julierawe> date: 12 feb 2026
15:55:33 <julierawe> chair: julierawe
15:55:35 <julierawe> present+
15:55:38 <julierawe> agenda?
15:56:16 <julierawe> agenda+ Background
15:56:42 <julierawe> agenda+ V2 group refresher: Revisiting Rain's December 2024 recommendations
15:56:56 <julierawe> agenda+ V2 user needs: Seeking clarification on location and format of user needs [slide 28]
15:57:14 <julierawe> agenda+ Questions about next steps in Rain's December 2024 deck [slide 35]
15:57:32 <julierawe> agenda+ Still-to-do list in December 2024 deck: Wayfinding icons, storyboards, and other items [slide 36]
15:57:48 <julierawe> agenda+ A few recent clarifications from Rain
15:57:52 <julierawe> agenda?
16:00:54 <Jennifer> Jennifer has joined #coga
16:01:31 <Jennifer> present+
16:09:49 <julierawe> present+ kirkwood
16:11:16 <julierawe> agenda+ V2 interactive control pattern: What-to-do info about target size
16:11:25 <julierawe> zakim, take up item 7
16:11:25 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- V2 interactive control pattern: What-to-do info about target size -- taken up [from julierawe]
16:12:26 <julierawe> We discussed changing the guidance to mention "When possible, use WCAG 2's larger target size."
16:12:44 <julierawe> zakim, next itme
16:12:44 <Zakim> I don't understand 'next itme', julierawe
16:12:55 <julierawe> zakim, next item
16:12:55 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Background -- taken up [from julierawe]
16:13:26 <julierawe> We've been in the weeds reformatting a few V2 patterns.
16:13:42 <julierawe> With Jen new to our subgroup, we'll use this week to step back and revisit Rain's December 2024 recommendations.
16:13:46 <julierawe> One high-level goal is to gather questions and help make sure we aren't missing any work that has already been done.
16:14:58 <julierawe> zakim, next item
16:14:58 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- V2 group refresher: Revisiting Rain's December 2024 recommendations -- taken up [from julierawe]
16:15:21 <julierawe> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1aOyK6N5coRlT1ZA7SZNp4w4sP7ynxBNNT2HBUt4NCOQ/edit?slide=id.g31aadb93ea3_0_573#slide=id.g31aadb93ea3_0_573
16:16:53 <LenB> LenB has joined #coga
16:16:57 <LenB> present+
16:25:01 <julierawe> julierawe gave a quick overview of the December 2024 deck
16:25:09 <julierawe> zakim, next item
16:25:09 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- V2 user needs: Seeking clarification on location and format of user needs -- taken up [from slide 28]
16:30:21 <julierawe> julierawe looked at slide 25, which shows the "How it helps" section for a specific pattern. "How it helps" includes a few user stories. https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1aOyK6N5coRlT1ZA7SZNp4w4sP7ynxBNNT2HBUt4NCOQ/edit?slide=id.g31aadb93ea3_1_180#slide=id.g31aadb93ea3_1_180
16:31:20 <julierawe> julierawe looked at slide 28, with details on "Know your users." It includes user stories, not a long list of user needs. https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1aOyK6N5coRlT1ZA7SZNp4w4sP7ynxBNNT2HBUt4NCOQ/edit?slide=id.g31b78dfff81_1_99#slide=id.g31b78dfff81_1_99
16:31:31 <Jennifer> +1 to Len's comment regarding focusing on the guidance at hand.
16:31:40 <julierawe> LenB The goal was to keep people focused, not to sure every single user need.
16:32:14 <julierawe> LenB One possibility would be to link out to a list of user needs.
16:32:25 <julierawe> LenB Do these lists of user needs exist?
16:32:39 <julierawe> LenB And would we have to continually update that list?
16:35:50 <julierawe> julierawe Should we include a review question asking if people miss having a list of user needs? Do they like the way we present user needs only in user stories.
16:38:16 <julierawe> Jennifer suggest we could tee up the user stories by framing that this is not an exhaustive list.
16:39:13 <julierawe> Jennifer At Google, people want to hear the impact to user stories. We intentionally avoid trying to have a comprehensive list of all possible needs because of intersectionality. It would be very challenging to make it truly comprehensive.
16:40:18 <LenB> Goal was to keep people focused on the scope of the document. If we added every user need in this document we'd have a big 'intermission' in the content scope for that list.
16:40:18 <LenB> If we add a 'complete' list of user needs we'd need to create a W3C list (that includes COGA, Internationalization, etc). It could then be soo large it becomes a point in the document that people leave it.
16:40:18 <LenB> Another issue was that site authors know their audience better than we do. Some of our guidance may not apply. For example, passive voice is a must for certain industries while others can be a hindrance for users. We'd have a difficult time to selecting the users needs that match the reader's context.
16:40:32 <julierawe> https://www.w3.org/TR/coga-usable/#clear-purpose-user-story
16:42:26 <LenB> +1
16:42:32 <Jennifer> +1
16:42:41 <julierawe> Stick with Rain's proposal to only show user stories, not long bulleted lists of user needs? +1 if you agree
16:42:43 <julierawe> +1
16:42:58 <julierawe> kirkwood +1
16:43:08 <julierawe> zakim, next item
16:43:08 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Questions about next steps in Rain's December 2024 deck -- taken up [from slide 35]
16:43:30 <julierawe> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1aOyK6N5coRlT1ZA7SZNp4w4sP7ynxBNNT2HBUt4NCOQ/edit?slide=id.g31aadb93ea3_0_635#slide=id.g31aadb93ea3_0_635
16:44:50 <julierawe> Did Rain's team meet with Kevin, Shawn, and Tamsin to see if any of the proposed design template is not possible for us to do?
16:46:49 <julierawe> Did the COGA community group provide feedback on December 2024 deck?
16:47:12 <julierawe> Action item: Jennifer to ask Rain today
16:47:26 <julierawe> zakim, next item
16:47:26 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Still-to-do list in December 2024 deck: Wayfinding icons, storyboards, and other items -- taken up [from slide 36]
16:47:33 <julierawe> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1aOyK6N5coRlT1ZA7SZNp4w4sP7ynxBNNT2HBUt4NCOQ/edit?slide=id.g31aadb93ea3_1_16#slide=id.g31aadb93ea3_1_16
16:48:17 <julierawe> LenB we started looking at wayfinding icons but got waylaid. Ask Rain if got reassigned?
16:48:43 <julierawe> LenB This was more than "previous," next," etc. We were looking at icons for "Developer," "Designer," etc.
16:51:28 <julierawe> julierawe Some of these icons we can save for later. ]
16:51:40 <julierawe> lenB We can prioritize what we need first.
16:52:15 <julierawe> Action item: Jennifer to ask Rain if any progress was made on wayfinding icons
16:53:26 <julierawe> Action item: Jennifer to ask Rain about everything on the still-to-do slide
16:53:38 <julierawe> agenda?
16:56:49 <julierawe> This annotated V2 doc had the wrong design template: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lHnpVPSzp1Fe2N5aZwJYm_Q3rObkwQ9BA6FInZM7tVw/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.ulyw4f1mh5g5
16:57:04 <LenB> LenB has joined #coga
16:57:08 <julierawe> But Rain provided the updated link and also some key questions
16:59:38 <julierawe> Those questions are different from the ones we discussed today and that Jennifer will seek answers to.
17:02:25 <julierawe> rrsagent, make minutes
17:02:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/02/12-coga-minutes.html julierawe
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