14:54:58 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #lws
14:55:02 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/02/09-lws-irc
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14:55:12 <TallTed> meeting: Linked Web Storage WG meeting
14:55:39 <TallTed> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/a19ab7dc-1753-433d-bac5-64e3ad8c0a43/20260209T100000/
14:55:39 <agendabot> clear agenda
14:55:39 <agendabot> agenda+ Introduction & announcements
14:55:39 <agendabot> agenda+ Issue triage
14:55:39 <agendabot> agenda+ Containment: paging
14:55:39 <agendabot> agenda+ Containment: other issues
14:55:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/02/09-lws-minutes.html TallTed
14:56:17 <TallTed> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2026/02/02-lws-minutes.html
14:56:24 <TallTed> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2026/02/16-lws-minutes.html
14:56:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/02/09-lws-minutes.html TallTed
14:58:16 <acoburn> present+
14:58:21 <acoburn> chair: acoburn
14:59:12 <TallTed> present+
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15:00:28 <eBremer> eBremer has joined #lws
15:01:09 <eBremer> present+
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15:03:01 <gibsonf1> present+
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15:04:55 <eBremer> scribe+
15:05:08 <laurens> present+
15:05:09 <RazaN> present+
15:05:14 <acoburn> zakim, open agendum 1
15:05:14 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Introduction & announcements -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:05:22 <ericP> ericP has joined #lws
15:05:28 <ericP> present+
15:05:32 <uvdsl> present+
15:06:06 <Luke> Luke has joined #lws
15:06:41 <eBremer> acoburn: one announcement...next Monday holiday in the USA
15:07:06 <eBremer> ... ask the question whether we should go ahead with a meeting....or cancel
15:07:06 <AZ> AZ has joined #lws
15:07:16 <AZ> present+
15:07:18 <TallTed> +0 (I won't be in attendance, but won't block others meeting without me)
15:07:38 <uvdsl> No strong opinion here
15:07:44 <eBremer> laurens: im fine either way
15:08:09 <acoburn> zakim, open agendum 2
15:08:10 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Issue triage -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:08:28 <eBremer> acoburn: we're going ot time box to 10 mins or less
15:09:29 <eBremer> ...lws issue #24 my recommendation to having separate binding...is to merge
15:09:29 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/lws-protocol/issues/24 -> Issue 24 Reasons for separate rest bindings (by jeswr)
15:09:34 <uvdsl> q+
15:09:45 <eBremer> ... if people disagree, then to weigh in
15:09:50 <acoburn> ack next
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15:10:03 <Luke> present+
15:10:06 <bendm> present+
15:10:56 <eBremer> uvdl: would second your recommendation
15:11:14 <eBremer> acoburn: please weigh in if you have opinions on any of the items
15:11:38 <eBremer> s/uvdl/uvdsl
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15:12:19 <eBremer> acoburn: You added this. This is, um ... This has to do with recursive. container deletion, virtual resources, and such. I think this is going to have to be clarified as part of.
15:12:28 <eBremer> laurens: i will
15:12:51 <eBremer> acoburn: Um, particularly the authorization suites and. references to ACLs. Um, I think this person's making a good point here. Um, we should ... Discuss and clarify what is going on with this, so ... let me add needs discussion.
15:13:27 <eBremer> ...this one here, it ... Seems to me like this is ... a, um ... Uh, about not changing. Things significantly, the specification, but clarifying. And making things consistent, especially with regard to how resource identifiers are explained.
15:13:50 <eBremer> ... Erich Bremer take special look as they relate to CRUD
15:15:05 <eBremer> lws issue#73
15:15:06 <gb> Issue 73 not found
15:15:07 <gibsonf1> q+
15:15:24 <acoburn> ack next
15:16:06 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/lws-protocol/issues/73 -> Issue 73 Scalability and implementation concerns regarding permission-based filtering (by wkerckho)
15:16:50 <eBremer> laurens: Just to quickly add that the current proposal assumes that if one has read access to a container, they can see the contents of that container regardless of the permissions of the resources that are contained within. I think it brings a lot of complexity to do it the other way around, but this is something we can discuss in the context of
15:16:50 <eBremer> the container proposal.
15:17:09 <eBremer> acoburn: lws #74
15:17:10 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/lws-protocol/issues/74 -> Issue 74 Does Authorization Server need to get user consent again for resource authorization grant? (by damooo)
15:17:49 <acoburn> zakim, open agendum 3
15:17:49 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Containment: paging -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:18:12 <eBremer> laurens: you should be able to see my screen I hope
15:18:44 <eBremer> ... a lot of discussion on pagination...
15:19:00 <eBremer> ... ive prepared some slides (link?)
15:19:35 <eBremer> ... two options.  linked based schema or client-specificed interface
15:20:04 <acoburn> q+ to ask about agreement on core purpose
15:20:07 <eBremer> ...Or pagination, with more control for client applications to vary parameters like the size of a page, or to traverse through the collection. And then, lastly, we have some common pagination mechanisms regarding that explicit client interface that we might want to consider here. Um, so basically what is pagination? It's dividing a large collection
15:20:07 <eBremer> of items into subsets, which we will call pages.
15:20:48 <acoburn> ack next
15:20:49 <Zakim> acoburn, you wanted to ask about agreement on core purpose
15:20:56 <gibsonf1> q+
15:21:05 <eBremer> acoburn: is there actually agreement on that core purpose?
15:21:06 <acoburn> ack next
15:21:25 <eBremer> gibsonf1: should all be the same approach..
15:21:44 <TallTed> q+
15:21:45 <eBremer> acoburn: before discussing approach, we need to define purpose
15:21:51 <acoburn> ack next
15:22:13 <eBremer> talltred: devling in to purpose is premature...
15:22:31 <eBremer> ... we need some sort of short list of problems if you lack pagination
15:22:31 <gb> https://github.com/solid-contrib/practitioners/discussions/10 -> Discussion 10 Use Cases for Search and Indexing (by jeff-zucker)
15:22:32 <ryey> present+
15:23:33 <uvdsl> Do we have documented LWS UCs that require pagination?
15:24:12 <eBremer> ... (lists multiple problems) it's a big space and people are coming to it from different places....
15:24:44 <eBremer> ... dont refer to in windows terms, they talk about offsets and counts...
15:25:19 <eBremer> ... lastly, there is a beig challenge in the space were in because we are largely not completely bound to HTTP
15:25:51 <eBremer> acoburn: what you described, I've encountered as well, and im sure others have well
15:26:04 <eBremer> ... we have use cases that touch upon this
15:26:24 <eBremer> ... Ted, if you can add some of your commentary to the use cases
15:26:34 <acoburn> q?
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15:27:28 <jeswr> present+
15:27:36 <acoburn> @tallted this may be the best use case, though it's not specific to containers: https://github.com/w3c/lws-ucs/issues/103
15:27:37 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/lws-ucs/issues/103 -> Issue 103 [UC] Pagination, filtering and ordering (by srosset81) [triage] [usecase]
15:28:35 <gibsonf1> q+
15:28:50 <acoburn> ack next
15:29:12 <eBremer> gibsonf1: complaint about arbitrary unit called a page...
15:29:36 <acoburn> q+
15:29:42 <eBremer> ... I dont see how this notion of a page benefits us
15:29:53 <eBremer> ... covert the page into an actual request
15:30:02 <eBremer> s/covert/convert
15:30:22 <eBremer> laurens: there are examples of pagination working at scale
15:30:36 <TallTed> Some prior art: https://www.iodbc.org/dataspace/doc/iodbc/wiki/iodbcWiki/ODBCOnUnix#Scrollable%20Cursors
15:30:36 <eBremer> ... typically offset limit-based
15:30:55 <TallTed> q+
15:30:58 <eBremer> ... i dont think the the notion of a page should be server-imposed
15:31:08 <acoburn> ack next
15:31:19 <eBremer> ... basically choose the properties of the pagination scheme
15:31:45 <eBremer> acoburn: Laurens, I like your 3 separate sections
15:32:02 <eBremer> ... we made only decide as a group that we only care about one of those...
15:32:20 <TallTed> closely related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACID
15:32:36 <eBremer> ...but a page is justa subset.  I do think we need some clear defintions, but a page is really just a subset of a collection
15:32:37 <acoburn> ack next
15:33:06 <eBremer> tallted: may be old news...those three things your talking about are closely related to acid
15:33:43 <eBremer> ... this is an extremely challenging space of work
15:34:07 <eBremer> ...reinventing it is going to be painful and will take us a lot of time
15:34:32 <eBremer> ...should build on shoulders of giants and not try to do it again
15:34:47 <eBremer> laurens: opaque based or client-specified?
15:35:10 <eBremer> ... to do this withing the timeframe of the wg
15:35:39 <eBremer> ... current is based on opaque link-based traversal scheme...
15:36:26 <eBremer> ... givens us flexibility, servers can choose the algo they want...the client doesnt necessarily change anything
15:36:56 <eBremer> ...explicity client interface...there is prior art...like http range headers
15:37:13 <eBremer> ...or using conventions of query parameters like offset and limit
15:37:36 <eBremer> ... is it desirable for us to define both?
15:37:44 <eBremer> ... we will want to tread carefully on
15:38:21 <eBremer> acoburn: its true http range requests allows users to define other than bytes
15:38:31 <eBremer> ...if we define something else, would be novel
15:38:52 <eBremer> ... other systems have used other header units...not used in a specification though
15:39:30 <eBremer> laurens: (turns slide deck over to acoburn) until laurens leaves
15:40:15 <TallTed> Can we get a link to Laurens' deck (or a copy)?
15:40:33 <eBremer> laurens: That's good. So, the slide here lists some common explicit pagination mechanisms that are found. One of them would be cursor-based, so using an opaque token. which, has some properties that might be desirable, having a graceful handling of inserts and deletes, working with indexes.
15:40:38 <TallTed> s/things your talking about are closely related to acid/things you're talking about are closely related to ACID/
15:41:09 <eBremer> acoburn: if using hypermedia controls, next, previous, all of these mechanisms are possible
15:41:23 <eBremer> ... snapshot based is nice if you need consistency
15:41:37 <TallTed> q+
15:41:40 <eBremer> ...collections are changing....talking about changing collections
15:42:04 <eBremer> ... with snapshot you need copy on write and is not trivial
15:42:40 <eBremer> ... third one, offset/limit easiest to implement, but as you are progressing, will encounter duplicates and skips.
15:42:52 <eBremer> ...doesnt occur in the other three
15:43:01 <acoburn> ack next
15:43:07 <eBremer> ...most of these require stable keys in order to do efficiently
15:43:21 <eBremer> tallted: again, reinventing the database world
15:43:53 <eBremer> ... what you were just talking about is isolation...
15:44:14 <eBremer> ... the client needs to know what isolation they need...the server might not be able to grant it
15:44:49 <eBremer> ...may needs to maintain 7 copies of a 1TB dataset if server knows how to break things down...
15:45:07 <eBremer> ...implementing this is non-trivial, talking about it is non-trivial
15:45:42 <eBremer> acoburn: S3 is an example of a large scale software that has a pagination mechanism
15:46:17 <eBremer> ...2 approaches S3 provides is cursor-basedd and key/seek/items
15:47:05 <eBremer> acoburn: need to decide, and echo teds point, this is a non-trivial feature
15:47:38 <eBremer> ... if we don't get consensus, it will get bumped to a WG note or drop it entirely
15:47:40 <TallTed> q+
15:47:52 <eBremer> ...where do people stand on this?
15:47:59 <acoburn> ack next
15:48:22 <eBremer> tallted: one more piece of DB experience, these questions do not have universal answers....
15:48:24 <gibsonf1> q+ to ask about LDP Paging
15:48:51 <eBremer> ... ODBC and JDBC have DB agnostic client connection mechanisms
15:49:05 <eBremer> ... the generic API into the database-specific API
15:49:19 <eBremer> ...DB isolation is something that you can specify
15:49:37 <eBremer> ...see every change that every other client is making or I just want to see
15:50:00 <eBremer> ... how big is the thing that you';re working on and is it really an atom?
15:50:28 <eBremer> ... transaction atomicity as either the whole transaction succeeds or it fails
15:50:45 <acoburn> ack next
15:50:46 <Zakim> gibsonf, you wanted to ask about LDP Paging
15:51:01 <eBremer> gibsonf1: on prior art LDP paging spec un-implementable
15:51:08 <eBremer> ... nothing I would know how to do
15:51:21 <eBremer> ... I was unable to make it work
15:51:44 <eBremer> acoburn: what specifically?  I've implemented parts of it which were fine
15:52:00 <acoburn> Linked Data Paging: https://www.w3.org/TR/ldp-paging/
15:52:01 <TallTed> q+
15:52:08 <eBremer> gibsonf1: i would have to look into again, there were a few issues that made it not possible
15:52:08 <acoburn> ack next
15:52:36 <eBremer> tallted: I was in LDP, it fell into a note partly because we didn't have good ways to
15:52:47 <eBremer> ...bluntly, we ran out of time
15:53:03 <eBremer> ... not aware of any specific implementations that succeeded
15:53:25 <eBremer> acoburn: i havent done LDP paging over LDP resources
15:53:46 <eBremer> ...because solid doesn't, weve never done that
15:54:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/02/09-lws-minutes.html TallTed
15:54:25 <eBremer> ...straw poll opaque versus client UI
15:54:39 <bendm> q+
15:54:46 <acoburn> ack next
15:55:05 <eBremer> bendm: when you mentioned S3, how do they fall?
15:55:11 <ericP> +1 to opaque links + service desc to describe extensions (e.g. random-access paging)
15:55:17 <eBremer> acoburn: S3 API is a bit different
15:55:27 <Luke> q+
15:55:27 <eBremer> ... theyre using a cursor and a key set
15:55:48 <eBremer> ... its a piece of software and not a specification
15:56:06 <acoburn> ack next
15:56:16 <TallTed> +0 (I strongly advise making both available. Possibly one could be a MUST, and the other a SHOULD. I would not advise making either a MAY.)
15:56:29 <uvdsl> +-0, I do not have any implementation experience with paging. I am also unsure about the corresponding LWS UCs - UCs may inform a direction here as well?
15:56:52 <eBremer> luke: clarification - is the opaque insensitive to multiple people using it, multi user effect like acid-type between either of these?
15:57:04 <TallTed> I do not think there's anything blocking implementing/supporting both.
15:57:28 <eBremer> acoburn: if our remit is to define a link header with a rel=next, that is what I mean by opaque headers
15:57:49 <eBremer> ... with client, a particular parameter in this case P
15:58:12 <ryey> q+
15:58:31 <ryey> q-
15:58:33 <gibsonf1> maybe paging is beyond scope after all
15:59:08 <acoburn> rrsagent, make minutes
15:59:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/02/09-lws-minutes.html acoburn
15:59:56 <acoburn> s/talltred/tallted
16:00:07 <acoburn> rrsagent, make minutes
16:00:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/02/09-lws-minutes.html acoburn
16:00:23 <acoburn> acoburn has left #lws
16:00:26 <TallTed> s/talltred/tallted/g
16:00:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/02/09-lws-minutes.html TallTed
17:34:17 <TallTed> Zakim, end meeting
17:34:17 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been acoburn, TallTed, eBremer, gibsonf, laurens, RazaN, ericP, uvdsl, AZ, Luke, bendm, ryey, jeswr
17:34:19 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:34:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/02/09-lws-minutes.html Zakim
17:34:26 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, TallTed; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
17:34:26 <Zakim> Zakim has left #lws
17:34:35 <RRSAgent> I see no action items