17:45:53 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:45:57 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/02/05-aria-irc
17:45:57 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:45:58 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA WG
17:46:02 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
17:46:02 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
17:46:04 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/690d057f-db6d-4169-b13f-68d7f1336b59/20260205T130000/
17:46:04 <agendabot> clear agenda
17:46:04 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://github.com/search?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created:%3E=2026-01-29+repo:w3c/aria&type=Issues
17:46:04 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/ye268z5m
17:46:06 <agendabot> agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y
17:46:08 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
17:46:11 <agendabot> agenda+ -> AriaNotify Permissions Policy -- needs resolution https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2577#issuecomment-3787651067
17:46:14 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Consider adding an attribute for table-cell formulas https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2709
17:46:17 <agendabot> agenda+ If time, next steps for aria-actions: -> aria-actions: handling focus when actions are synthetically triggered https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2691
18:01:17 <smockle> present+
18:02:19 <aardrian> aardrian has joined #aria
18:02:21 <Adam_Page> Adam_Page has joined #aria
18:03:27 <dgrogan> present+
18:03:38 <aardrian> present+
18:03:57 <Adam_Page> present+
18:04:14 <giacomo-petri0> giacomo-petri0 has joined #aria
18:04:26 <giacomo-petri> giacomo-petri has joined #aria
18:04:30 <giacomo-petri> present+
18:04:39 <jamesn> Zakim, pick a victim
18:04:39 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Adam_Page
18:04:43 <Jacques> Jacques has joined #aria
18:04:55 <Francis_Storr> Francis_Storr has joined #aria
18:04:58 <Jacques> scribe+
18:05:08 <Francis_Storr> present+
18:05:16 <Jacques> zakim, next item
18:05:16 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New PR Triage https://github.com/search?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created:%3E=2026-01-29+repo:w3c/aria&type=Issues -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:05:16 <github-bot> I can't comment on that because it doesn't look like a github issue to me.
18:06:42 <pkra> pkra has joined #aria
18:07:06 <sarah> sarah has joined #aria
18:07:09 <sarah> present+
18:07:11 <pkra> present+
18:07:22 <Jacques> jamesn: this is a normative change so it should have the checklist on it.
18:08:08 <Jacques> jamesn: we (the editors) can do that for you.
18:08:25 <Stefan> Stefan has joined #aria
18:08:33 <Stefan> present+
18:09:39 <CurtBellew> CurtBellew has joined #aria
18:09:40 <Jacques> zakim, next item
18:09:40 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/ye268z5m -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:09:40 <github-bot> I can't comment on that because it doesn't look like a github issue to me.
18:09:45 <CurtBellew> present+
18:14:58 <Jacques> zakim, next item
18:14:58 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:14:58 <github-bot> I can't comment on that because it doesn't look like a github issue to me.
18:15:21 <Jacques> zakim, close this item
18:15:21 <Zakim> agendum 3 closed
18:15:22 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:15:22 <Zakim> 4. -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates [from agendabot]
18:15:27 <Jacques> zakim, next item
18:15:27 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:15:27 <github-bot> I can't comment on that because it doesn't look like a github issue to me.
18:15:51 <Jacques> zakim, close this item
18:15:51 <Zakim> agendum 4 closed
18:15:52 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:15:52 <Zakim> 5. -> AriaNotify Permissions Policy -- needs resolution https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2577#issuecomment-3787651067 [from agendabot]
18:15:54 <Jacques> zakim, next item
18:15:54 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- -> AriaNotify Permissions Policy -- needs resolution https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2577#issuecomment-3787651067 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:16:01 <smockle> q+
18:16:13 <Daniel> scribe+
18:16:28 <jamesn> Ack smockle
18:18:48 <jamesn> q+
18:21:05 <Daniel> Jacques: What concerns me is sites embeding content from other sites
18:21:12 <Daniel> ... this is going to make adoption hard
18:21:13 <jamesn> Q?
18:21:17 <jamesn> Ack me
18:21:25 <Daniel> Clay: I think there could be a list of allowed domains that we can reuse in the future
18:21:36 <Daniel> Jacques: Don't think this would be even exposed to ATs
18:22:05 <Daniel> JamesN: Is there anything we could ask browsers to do? For example, if something is allowed by defult or blocked by default that could ranslate to ARIANotify
18:22:45 <Daniel> Jacques: That's where I'm not sure. The equestion is it should be allowed or blocked by default
18:23:06 <Daniel> ... Authors may not know that they need to opt-in
18:23:12 <giacomo-petri> +1 allow by default
18:23:33 <Daniel> JamesN: I lean towards allowing by default, you can block bad actors when they start to misbehave
18:23:55 <Daniel> ... If you don't trust the site you'll block JavaScript anyways and that's not going to work
18:24:02 <Daniel> Jacques: Agree.
18:24:34 <jamesn> Q?
18:26:24 <Jacques> proposed resolution: we should allow arianotify to be allowed by default as written in the current version.
18:26:59 <Daniel> Jamesn: Objections?
18:27:16 <Jacques> Resolved: we should allow arianotify to be allowed by default as written in the current version.
18:27:30 <Jacques> RESOLVED: we should allow arianotify to be allowed by default as written in the current version.
18:27:33 <smockle> q+
18:27:40 <jamesn> Ack smockle
18:27:54 <Daniel> Clay: If we decide to change this, what would this look like?
18:28:22 <Daniel> Jacques: It'd require implementation changes. I think allowing by default and then changing to denying by default would be an option
18:28:59 <Daniel> JamesN: What we are resolving on today is not to give somebody something new that hey couldn't do with live-regions
18:29:23 <Daniel> Clay: Yes, this is not going to work worse than live regions
18:29:31 <Daniel> zakim, take up next
18:29:31 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- -> Consider adding an attribute for table-cell formulas https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2709 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:29:35 <Daniel> scribe-
18:30:18 <Jacques> jamesn: we asked three implementors how this was going to work but haven't heard back.
18:30:45 <Jacques> aardrian: lets skip this one.
18:31:41 <Jacques> zakim, next item
18:31:41 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- If time, next steps for aria-actions: -> aria-actions: handling focus when actions are synthetically triggered https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2691 -- taken up
18:31:44 <Zakim> ... [from agendabot]
18:32:36 <Daniel> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:32:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/02/05-aria-minutes.html Daniel
18:32:52 <Jacques> sarah: I wanted to check - the tables added are script heavy and focused on aria-activedescendant
18:34:55 <Jacques> Matt: in the first use case, the APG example cannot do what is expected, but in the other use cases that are related to keyboard and mouse they do what is expected
18:35:38 <Jacques> Matt: I rewrote all of the tables on James Craig's feedback to be clear on focus vs active descendant.
18:36:04 <Jacques> sarah: this is good, but this isn't focused on what the browser does
18:36:24 <Jacques> sarah: this is fine for this example, but this is a very specific example.
18:36:47 <Jacques> sarah: this isn't talking about the difference of what the browser would do
18:37:26 <Jacques> Matt: we want to make sure this works in both the case where you do and don't use activedescendant. These are real world examples we expect to work.
18:37:46 <Jacques> sarah: Is the conclusion that the browser does not set focus when you use the actions rotor
18:37:54 <Jacques> Matt: that is correct
18:38:21 <Daniel> +1 to JamesN, we should really keep these arguments for when they ask for rationale
18:38:23 <Jacques> jamesn: we should prepare ourselves for feedback from wider review, make sure we have a good response for why this is OK. I suspect they will flag this.
18:41:11 <Jacques> jcraig: the js event model gives away more about users than anything this is doing.
18:42:14 <Daniel> q?
18:43:06 <Jacques> jcraig: I would object to the browser doing anything different than it normally would. Say  the browser is synthesizing a mouse click, by default the focus will move. Doing what browser does today will be the only way to not add an additional detection vector.
18:43:45 <Jacques> jcraig: we could say that AT should consider if an automatic focus change should bring AT focus along with it.
18:44:17 <Daniel> q?
18:44:26 <Jacques> Matt: if the AT says activate action X and anything more than that happens, then that breaks.
18:45:18 <sarah> q+
18:45:39 <Jacques> Matt: js should continue to influence focus as it does today, but doing an action from the ATs shouldn't be seen as a regular click event.
18:47:29 <Jacques> jcraig: When you trigger an accessibility press, cascade of event, mouse down, mouse up, events, if the element is focusable then by default focus will move to the element. this is the normal browser behavior, so we shouldn't let actions from an AT avoid this normal flow of events.
18:48:33 <Jacques> sarah: I don't see how preventing focus moving could cause issues with most controls. I do see how this could be used as an AT detection vector, but I don't think this is a new concern.
18:49:01 <Jacques> sarah: eventing and focus differences between AT and non AT are already present.
18:49:33 <Jacques> sarah: This is the same thing, but only happens with aria-actions, as opposed to what already exists.
18:50:46 <Jacques> sarah: one of the major use cases is composit widgets, if dom focus moves then that could already break in some instances.
18:51:37 <Jacques> sarah: if focus moves from a list to a button when an action is used, a user wouldn't expect focus to move, so when they hit down it wouldn't work as they would expect.
18:52:17 <Jacques> jcraig: we should get into more details on a spec PR so we can discuss deeper.
18:52:48 <Jacques> sarah: I can make a PR to my PR branch to discuss this on.
18:53:12 <Jacques> jcraig: Maybe make a new PR to replace the original, if the original is causing issues on Github.
18:53:31 <Jacques> sarah: I could put the proposed wording change on the issue.
18:54:25 <Jacques> jcraig: lets discuss the specific wording on the issue.
18:54:47 <Jacques> RESOLUTION: Sara will propose the specific text change in the issue
18:56:48 <Jacques> sarah: If screen reader focus hasn't moved but dom focus does, it could cause issues.
18:57:29 <Jacques> jcraig: If star is used in gmail, then there could be issues.
18:58:48 <Jacques> jcraig: If I hit star and focus was moved to star, then arrow keys might not do anything, but this would be for all users.
18:59:26 <Jacques> Matt: That might not be how the APG example works. If you click the move-up button, after clicking it focus moves to it.
18:59:55 <Jacques> Matt: that one can be complicated due to activedescendant
19:00:36 <Jacques> jcraig: All the places this is going to be used are reasonably complicated web applications, where subsequent actions are reasonably handled.
19:01:12 <Jacques> sarah: We aren't expecting someone to click on a button with the mouse and then use arrow keys and expect it to work. This could break many things I've seen.
19:02:28 <Daniel> rrsagent, draft minutes
19:02:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/02/05-aria-minutes.html Daniel
19:02:49 <Jacques> zakim, end meeting
19:02:49 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been smockle, dgrogan, aardrian, Adam_Page, giacomo-petri, Francis_Storr, sarah, pkra, Stefan, CurtBellew
19:02:52 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
19:02:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/02/05-aria-minutes.html Zakim
19:02:59 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Jacques; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
19:02:59 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
19:11:08 <bkardell> bkardell has joined #aria
19:15:03 <jcraig> s/subsequent actions are reasonably handled./subsequent actions are reasonably handled for mainstream users, and therefore may benefit these cases too./
19:16:54 <jcraig> s/synthesizing a mouse click, by default the focus will move./synthesizing a mouse click, if the element is focusable, by default the focus will move./
19:17:54 <jcraig> s/so we shouldn't let actions from an AT avoid this normal flow of events./so we shouldn't let actions from an AT prevent or preclude this cascade of expected events./
19:18:40 <jcraig> s/so we shouldn't let actions from an AT /so we shouldn't enshrine in spec language that actions from an AT /
19:19:50 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
19:19:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/02/05-aria-minutes.html jcraig