13:57:02 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #matf
13:57:06 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/01/28-matf-irc
13:57:06 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:57:07 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ
13:57:13 <JJ> Zakim, this is MATF 28 January 2026
13:57:13 <Zakim> got it, JJ
13:57:28 <JJ> Meeting: MATF 28 January 2026
13:57:34 <JJ> chair+
14:01:22 <shoobe01> present+
14:01:39 <Tanya> Tanya has joined #matf
14:01:45 <Tanya> present+
14:01:46 <JJ> agenda+ User Agent definition
14:01:52 <JJ> agenda+ Cross-platform Framework definition
14:01:58 <JJ> agenda+ Not modified by the author / Provided by the user agent or platform software
14:02:04 <JJ> agenda- 3
14:02:21 <JJ> agenda- 2
14:02:22 <JJ> agenda- 1
14:02:26 <quintinb> quintinb has joined #MATF
14:02:28 <JJ> agenda+ Underlying Layer
14:02:31 <quintinb> present+
14:02:35 <JJ> agenda+ Platform software
14:02:41 <JJ> agenda+ User agent
14:02:46 <JJ> agenda+ Application Software
14:02:46 <tayef> tayef has joined #matf
14:02:52 <JJ> agenda+ Assistive technologies and accessibility features
14:03:09 <Tanya> present+
14:03:09 <JJ> agenda+ Cross-platform Framework definition
14:03:10 <Joe_Humbert> Joe_Humbert has joined #matf
14:03:35 <quintinb> scribe: quinitnb
14:03:41 <quintinb> scribe: quintinb
14:05:06 <JJ> Recap: https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/270#issuecomment-3783145142
14:09:20 <JJ> move to next agendum
14:09:20 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Underlying Layer -- taken up [from JJ]
14:09:40 <JJ> Proposal: https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/63#issuecomment-3739004029
14:10:16 <tayef> present+
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14:10:26 <Joe_Humbert> present+
14:12:03 <RobW> RobW has joined #matf
14:12:09 <RobW> present+
14:12:22 <rachaely> present+
14:13:26 <quintinb> q+ to say that we should mention thewre will be a cross platform definition
14:13:34 <Joe_Humbert> q+
14:14:00 <JJ> ack quintinb
14:14:00 <Zakim> quintinb, you wanted to say that we should mention thewre will be a cross platform definition
14:14:03 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
14:14:39 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert What is menat by the "... touch input and sensor data" part (not all captured
14:14:41 <quintinb> )
14:15:01 <shoobe01> Add to first sentence "...to enable functionality of higher layers" ???
14:16:02 <shoobe01> Or a new intro sentence to it all that explains the layer concept fully.
14:16:37 <quintinb> @Tanya - difficult to answer - I'm trying to classify the definitions for identifying the different responsibilities. Where do we draw the line? The reason to include it would be to makle the division of responsibilities clear, to avoid people saying that they are not responsible for "lower level" layers.
14:17:22 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert can we keep the first sentence and remove the second one
14:20:07 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert I think it's defining the layers in the note. It's referring to specific layers. I don't understand the deifference between platform software and operating system
14:21:08 <JJ> Poll: create definition for (Underlying) Layer referencing low-level input methods?
14:21:47 <Joe_Humbert> -1
14:21:54 <tayef> 0
14:22:00 <quintinb> -1
14:22:00 <rachaely> 0
14:22:01 <Tanya> -1
14:22:07 <shoobe01> +1
14:24:55 <Joe_Humbert> q+
14:25:28 <quintinb> Tanya We can use the underlying layer in making a diagram of how we see things working together to separate and show interconnected layers, but include it as a separate definition will make it too complex
14:25:37 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
14:27:09 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert mayber it would be easier to re-write the note- is it the same note? Can we not just remove the term underlying layer. I think UL just tries to separate other layers from the system. We need to show what we mean by different layers
14:28:03 <quintinb> quintinb agrees with Joe_Humbert and Tanya
14:28:09 <JJ> Poll: clarify notes that reference "underlying layer" and create diagram to visualize layers in mobile environments?
14:28:29 <Joe_Humbert> +1
14:28:30 <quintinb> +1
14:28:37 <Tanya> +1
14:28:53 <RobW> +1
14:29:11 <tayef> +1
14:29:22 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert we need to run it by someone who knows this
14:29:32 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert I got you fam, I did AOSP
14:29:49 <Joe_Humbert> thanks quintinb
14:29:52 <shoobe01> 0
14:29:55 <rachaely> +1
14:30:03 <quintinb> (Compiled my own custom Android devices, professionally even)
14:30:34 <JJ> move to next agendum
14:30:34 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Platform software -- taken up [from JJ]
14:31:32 <Joe_Humbert> q+
14:32:19 <JJ> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/63#issuecomment-3739004029
14:32:47 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
14:34:19 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert I think the first sentence in there is overly complicate and needs simplification. I'm not sure the amount of detail is required. It could be more general. Like the previous definition, there is actual some control that many layers have. Refer to the fact that harware is in control and provides services to other software
14:35:31 <Tanya> q+
14:36:05 <JJ> ack Tanya
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14:38:33 <quintinb> Tanya I think that Joe_Humbert's suggestion to simplifiy is good. The most important goal is to make it clear that platform software is something that cannot be changed* (quintin recommends OEM) - but if we include good examples of simplified definitions without the second sentence it may work better. We want to be clear what the platform software
14:38:33 <quintinb> is related to. For example Google's Material components are not platform software.
14:39:36 <Joe_Humbert> q+
14:39:41 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
14:39:56 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert I don't like the terms "underlying software"
14:40:11 <quintinb> maybe firmware?
14:40:33 <Tanya> q+
14:41:12 <shoobe01> +q
14:41:17 <JJ> ack Tanya
14:41:50 <quintinb> Tanya what they may mean is (ref: user agent) if we say web views are user agents, then the user agent will probably be running on the platform software running on hardware
14:42:22 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert Then what do we mean platform software running on underlying software - are they separate or not
14:42:37 <pauljadam> maybe platform software could be something like when you use Apple Pay and the software pops up to do that on your iPhone
14:43:03 <quintinb> Please double check - I'm typing "platform software" and by that time some says "underlying software" and then I get worried I'm messing it up
14:43:05 <JJ> ack shoobe01
14:43:09 <JJ> ack shoobe
14:43:51 <quintinb> shoobe01 - aside from the s/h/ware layer being separate. The day to day computers are running on virtual machines.
14:43:54 <Joe_Humbert> q+
14:45:05 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
14:45:40 <shoobe01> Correction to notes: "The day to day mobile software development environments are running on virtual machines, that emulate a hardware phone."
14:46:44 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert I thought the virtualisation can be said differently. I'm recommending making it simple. The biggest thing that throws me off is that platform s/ware refers to browsers for me, which is a user agent. I think platform software is operating systems. But web browsers and plugins are something else - maybe not user agents but not platform
14:46:44 <quintinb> software
14:46:47 <RobW> q+
14:46:52 <pauljadam> yeah like the Chrome app on iOS is not platform software right, it's an App that is also a user agent
14:47:33 <Tanya> q+
14:47:44 <JJ> ack RobW
14:49:28 <quintinb> RobW I would offer my thoughts: I don't think my understanding is correct, but how I do it - the user agent is part of the browser responsible for downloading and fetching content. If you download Chrome, that is software with a user agent, but Edge is platform software with a user agent. Safari on ios is... uh I got lost
14:49:49 <quintinb> scribe outofmemoryexception
14:50:07 <Tanya> q-
14:50:32 <JJ> Poll: clarify Platform Software definition with notes and examples, keep definition as in WCAG2ICT?
14:50:51 <Joe_Humbert> -1
14:50:56 <quintinb> -1
14:51:07 <shoobe01> -1
14:51:12 <Tanya> -1
14:51:19 <shoobe01> q+
14:51:21 <quintinb> trying to scribe this has proved how confusing all this is
14:51:35 <tayef> 0
14:51:42 <rachaely> 0
14:51:46 <RobW> 0
14:51:50 <JJ> Conclusion: definition does need to be clarified
14:52:01 <JJ> ack shoobe01
14:52:34 <quintinb> shoobe01 this seems a lot of this would be solved by the previous discussion. Let's define it more clearly. Or am I on the wrong page
14:52:38 <JJ> ack shoobe
14:52:38 <quintinb> +1 shoobe01
14:54:11 <quintinb> shoobe01 we need to simplyfiy the model for clarifying the layers which become the definitions, so we can say " these are UA's" - we are getting lost between responsibilities
14:54:45 <JJ> move to next agendum
14:54:45 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- User agent -- taken up [from JJ]
14:59:08 <JJ> Poll: Use User Agent definition from WCAG to keep it only applicable to web content?
14:59:09 <Tanya> q+
14:59:23 <rachaely> 0
14:59:26 <shoobe01> 0
14:59:27 <Joe_Humbert> My opinion: platform software = OSes, User agent = renders web content. Web browsers = non-platform software that use user agents
14:59:32 <JJ> ack Tanya
14:59:34 <Joe_Humbert> +1
14:59:36 <JJ> zakim, close the queue
14:59:36 <Zakim> ok, JJ, the speaker queue is closed
14:59:38 <tayef> 0
14:59:38 <quintinb> 0
14:59:44 <RobW> +1
14:59:58 <quintinb> Tanya Maybe there are some volenteers to try make some architectural diagrams
15:00:02 <Tanya> +1
15:00:21 <quintinb> Tanya I'll try - I just need something in writing to remind me what I'm diagramming
15:00:56 <JJ> ACTION: quintinb and RobW will take a first attempt at diagram
15:02:33 <JJ> Zakim, list participants
15:02:35 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been shoobe, Tanya, quintinb, tayef, Joe_Humbert, RobW, rachaely
15:02:41 <JJ> rrsagent, make minutes
15:02:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/01/28-matf-minutes.html JJ
15:32:21 <JJ> rrsagent, bye
15:32:21 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in https://www.w3.org/2026/01/28-matf-actions.rdf :
15:32:21 <RRSAgent> ACTION: quintinb and RobW will take a first attempt at diagram [1]
15:32:21 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2026/01/28-matf-irc#T15-00-56