15:50:32 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pmwg-a11y
15:50:36 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/01/22-pmwg-a11y-irc
15:50:44 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #pmwg-a11y
15:51:00 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, this will be pmwg-a11y
15:51:00 <Zakim> ok, AvneeshSingh
15:51:15 <AvneeshSingh> present+
15:51:23 <AvneeshSingh> chair: AvneeshSingh
15:52:04 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Review of extended descriptions explainer:
15:52:19 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Review of PR for restructuring FXL techniques.
15:52:37 <AvneeshSingh> present+ Review of PR: Add aural rendering and tts sections
15:52:53 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ DPUB ARIA roles proposed/discussed by us in past.
15:53:09 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Any other business.
15:56:42 <Jonas> Jonas has joined #pmwg-a11y
15:58:31 <wendyreid> present+
16:01:56 <gpellegrino> present+
16:02:56 <CharlesL> CharlesL has joined #pmwg-a11y
16:03:18 <CharlesL> present+
16:03:37 <Laura> Laura has joined #pmwg-a11y
16:04:24 <Jonas> present+
16:04:28 <wendyreid> scribe+
16:04:43 <CharlesL> scribe+
16:05:00 <mgarrish> mgarrish has joined #pmwg-a11y
16:05:01 <AvneeshSingh> topic: Review of PR for restructuring FXL techniques.
16:05:38 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:05:47 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: Wendy created a PR for the new structure of the FXL techniques, feedback is welcome
16:05:48 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: Wendy has added some techiniques and requir feedback.
16:06:02 <AvneeshSingh> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/2878
16:06:14 <AvneeshSingh> https://htmlpreview.github.io/?https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/blob/fxl-a11y-tech-restructure/wg-notes/fxl-a11y-tech/index.html
16:06:26 <CharlesL> wendyreid: Changes, match the a11y tech doc as much as possible.  no dramatic changes.
16:06:30 <Madeleine> Madeleine has joined #pmwg-a11y
16:06:36 <Madeleine> present+
16:06:36 <CharlesL> ... any existing content put into the right place.
16:06:49 <CharlesL> ... maybe could be in placed differently.
16:07:08 <CharlesL> ... I added some placeholders where it makes sense. may have missed some.
16:07:24 <CharlesL> ... some sections may not make as much sense now with this restructuring.
16:07:41 <CharlesL> ... Reading order may be one area that needs to be discussed.
16:07:45 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:08:10 <CharlesL> q+
16:08:11 <gpellegrino> q+
16:08:26 <AvneeshSingh> ack charl
16:08:49 <wendyreid> CharlesL: Was looking at this, halfway down, WCAG techniques for FXL, three headings, they are empty, is that what you're looking for?
16:09:09 <wendyreid> ... ensure meaningful order, should be a heading?
16:09:15 <wendyreid> wendyreid: Yes
16:09:24 <wendyreid> CharlesL: Might be some formatting issues
16:09:34 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
16:10:02 <wendyreid> gpellegrino: I didn't have time to look, but thanks Wendy for rearranging, leave the PR open until the next call and give some more time for proper review
16:10:05 <CharlesL> q+
16:10:16 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
16:10:40 <wendyreid> CharlesL: Just wanted to mention when you first sent out the preview links there was an issue with GH's SSL certificate and it wasn't working, so review wasn't possible, but seems to be working now
16:10:48 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: We can keep it open for another week
16:11:05 <MiiaK> MiiaK has joined #pmwg-a11y
16:11:32 <AvneeshSingh> topic: Review of PR: Add aural rendering and tts sections
16:11:45 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/2873#issuecomment-3773784853
16:12:00 <wendyreid> mgarrish: This came from Rick Johnson, mentioning we'd lost mention of TTS from the core spec
16:12:34 <wendyreid> ... we'd created a TTS note, since things like CSS Speech and PLS and SSML lexicons weren't supported and wouldn't make it through the rec process for 3.3
16:12:59 <wendyreid> ... we have nothing stated in the core spec, Rick asked to create an aural rendering section, that TTS was important even if we didn't have specific requirements
16:13:12 <wendyreid> ... this PR restructures the media overlays section to include this
16:13:45 <wendyreid> ... I mention the original intentions, to the TTS note, what technologies were out there, there's discussions about CSS Speech, there might be more work out there
16:14:00 <wendyreid> ... at this point we don't have guidance aside from content structure and alternative text
16:14:05 <wendyreid> ... mostly informative
16:14:24 <wendyreid> ... my question is about the RS side, what should we say about how RS's should implement TTS
16:14:46 <wendyreid> ... optional feature with recommended features based on the DAISY work, pause, play, restart
16:15:13 <wendyreid> ... pointing to other implementations, but create a distinction from media overlays since it is difference
16:15:23 <wendyreid> ... reading systems don't need to become assistive technology
16:15:32 <wendyreid> ... would like some feedback on this
16:15:47 <wendyreid> ... want to make sure people are paying attention to this
16:16:05 <gpellegrino> q+
16:16:13 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: I was also wondering about the same questions, are people ok with so much detail
16:16:18 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:16:21 <wendyreid> ... do people in mainstream standards approve
16:16:31 <wendyreid> mgarrish: It's an optional feature, these are recommendations
16:16:49 <wendyreid> ... maybe later on we can be more direct and require some, but not for now
16:16:56 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: The complete section is optional
16:17:02 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
16:17:24 <wendyreid> gpellegrino: TTS is underspecified, I think we've discussed having guidance on TTS, a note or something like that
16:17:35 <wendyreid> ... Hadrien from EDRLab was working on this
16:17:38 <CharlesL> q+
16:17:43 <wendyreid> ... guidance on who has to implement TTS, and how
16:17:57 <wendyreid> ... do I have to read the alt text, mathml, do I need to include the semantics
16:18:09 <wendyreid> ... for developers who are unaware, it's new, the expectations for end users is unclea
16:18:32 <wendyreid> ... given all this, and we don't have consensus, I'm wondering if this section becomes the starting point for this
16:19:21 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:19:21 <wendyreid> ... Two issues, this might be too much for the EPUB spec, and if we want this to be from the community, we need broader consensus
16:19:45 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: We have discussion for this on 17 Feb
16:19:51 <wendyreid> CharlesL: Do we make it clear what we mean by TTS
16:19:56 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
16:20:01 <wendyreid> ... I think a lot of folks confuse it with assistive technology
16:20:13 <wendyreid> ... having a screen reader vs a reading system self-voicing
16:20:20 <wendyreid> ... does that need to be made clearer
16:20:36 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:20:37 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: Matt added something
16:21:03 <wendyreid> mgarrish: There's a new introduction, I haven't gone into implementation on the RS side, there's no information on technologies right now for RSs
16:21:31 <wendyreid> ... there's limitations on that, there's no universal way to TTS HTML content, will people agree to do it the same way when they have existing implementations
16:21:49 <wendyreid> ... have tried to limit it to basic features and what they would be, not the implementation
16:22:06 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: Too low level
16:22:18 <wendyreid> ... maybe Matt can have a look to make it clearer, higher-level
16:22:20 <wendyreid> q+
16:22:36 <wendyreid> ... we'll get the feedback from the community
16:22:41 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
16:23:18 <CharlesL> wendyreid: I will add my comments, one challenge is confusion thing that Charles mentioned TTS vs. Screen Readers, vs. Audio/Media Overlays etc.
16:23:44 <CharlesL> ... this is not just an EPUB problem, browsers content platform could have a TTS implementation.
16:24:13 <CharlesL> ... news websites listen to audio version.. etc. but we don't know who should specify.
16:24:49 <wendyreid> mgarrish: That's the big challenge, I understand the desire for information, we just aren't at a place to get recommendations on authoring or implementation because there's no information or standards out there.
16:25:21 <wendyreid> ... what should TTS be able to do, we can cover basic functionality, I don't know how much value it has, but if we want to spell some stuff out, maybe this is the way to do it.
16:25:25 <wendyreid> ... I'm open to alternatives
16:25:38 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: Traditionally, did we provide this kind of guidance for MO?
16:25:42 <gautierchomel_> gautierchomel_ has joined #pmwg-a11y
16:25:47 <wendyreid> ... stop and start from the same position
16:26:03 <wendyreid> ... did we give that specificity
16:26:11 <wendyreid> mgarrish: I can't remember off the top of my head
16:26:15 <gautierchomel_> present+
16:26:18 <wendyreid> ... I can take a look and try and match it up
16:26:26 <wendyreid> ... some of the same stuff for MO
16:26:31 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: That would be helpful
16:27:09 <wendyreid> ... keeping it high level would be nice, if we want to have a proper guidance document, reading systems guidelines like from DAISY, that's huge detail, we need to think about a different document for engineering level
16:27:15 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:27:25 <wendyreid> mgarrish: I'll check it and try to make it match up, make sure we aren't adding in features
16:27:49 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: Good discussion, didn't expect the details, we spotted some important details
16:27:59 <wendyreid> mgarrish: I was hoping for this feedback
16:28:21 <AvneeshSingh> topic: Review of extended descriptions explainer:
16:28:26 <gautierchomel_> https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y-extended-desc
16:28:29 <wendyreid> gautierchomel_: On extended descriptions, I think I addressed all of the comments in my PR, as it is, I think we can start a new review
16:28:35 <wendyreid> ... [shares link to document]
16:28:49 <gautierchomel_> https://w3c.github.io/publ-a11y-extended-desc/
16:28:52 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: It was a readme, I was able to read it
16:29:23 <wendyreid> gautierchomel_: No questions on my side, image links are broken and I will fix that. I'm waiting for feedback
16:29:25 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:29:29 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: Please share your comments
16:29:45 <wendyreid> CharlesL: The link you've shared, it's going to a git hub page, the explainer is in the readme?
16:29:58 <wendyreid> gautierchomel_: The second link is the content as an HTML page
16:30:12 <wendyreid> CharlesL: It's the same as the first link?
16:30:18 <wendyreid> ... and the image links work
16:30:38 <wendyreid> gautierchomel_: They work on the readme and not the page, probably a path issue
16:30:58 <wendyreid> CharlesL: Just looking for feedback on this? Is there an issue to collect it?
16:31:16 <wendyreid> gautierchomel_: You can add issues in an issue I'll create in the tracker
16:31:26 <Jonas> q+
16:31:33 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: If we're ok with the current state, we can share it with APA, at least the chairs
16:31:47 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:31:47 <wendyreid> ... Matthew mentioned he'd like to help, or should we wait?
16:32:01 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
16:32:13 <wendyreid> Jonas: I'm a bit confused, has anything changed since we discussed it last week?
16:32:23 <wendyreid> ... Gautier, has it been updated?
16:32:40 <wendyreid> ... I read the version in the agenda link, and I didn't see any changes
16:33:02 <wendyreid> gautierchomel_: The changes were in a PR, I just merged it, and it's changed now, you can see a diff in the closed PR
16:33:14 <wendyreid> Jonas: Ok, it's hard to review that during the meeting
16:33:18 <wendyreid> ... which link?
16:33:19 <gautierchomel_> https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y-extended-desc/pull/4/files
16:33:44 <wendyreid> gautierchomel_: I think we need one more week to review before pushing to APA
16:33:49 <gpellegrino> q+
16:34:16 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: We'll wait for a week and review, in early Feb I'll ask APA chairs to review and give feedback
16:34:19 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
16:34:26 <wendyreid> gpellegrino: Editorial question, do we have time to move this to the HTML format?
16:34:39 <wendyreid> ... we started from a model suggested by APA
16:34:47 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: HTML or Markdown?
16:35:02 <wendyreid> gpellegrino: I thought it was HTML with Respec
16:35:10 <wendyreid> wendyreid: You can use Markdown with Respec
16:35:26 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: How was the original structured?
16:35:34 <wendyreid> gautierchomel_: I don't remember, I think we kept with Markdown to keep it simple
16:35:58 <wendyreid> ... to get the feedback, pushed as readme, the first version is HTML, so we moved from HTML to Markdown, I can go back and check
16:36:11 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:36:12 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: I think we moved to markdown but can't remember why
16:36:24 <wendyreid> gautierchomel_: Mainly to ease the editorial process
16:36:33 <wendyreid> ... since it's just an explainer
16:36:47 <wendyreid> ... people can figure out what we want to do, people can take action
16:36:56 <wendyreid> ... we have explainers in the epub-spec repo
16:37:35 <wendyreid> wendyreid: [explains respec in markdown]
16:38:18 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: Maybe we move it to HTML then
16:38:28 <wendyreid> gautierchomel_: The W3C explainer template is in Markdown
16:38:56 <wendyreid> mgarrish: I thought it was just going to live as a page in the repo, does it need to be respec
16:39:14 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:39:27 <wendyreid> ... if its just an explainer doc, does it need respec
16:39:36 <wendyreid> ... no requirement for it
16:39:49 <wendyreid> ... lots of other explainers and their samples are in markdown in repos
16:40:02 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: The respec page looks more formal as well, the image can matter
16:40:03 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:40:30 <wendyreid> mgarrish: There was a template we were given, we should just use that
16:41:05 <wendyreid> wendyreid: Respec thing might be my fault, I wasn't sure if this was going to be published or not
16:41:19 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: There's a lot of discussion, where should this proposal go
16:41:22 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:41:51 <wendyreid> Jonas: I had a look at the PR, it seems like it still doesn't mention the possibility of aria-details having a direct reference to the image description instead of referencing it through a link
16:41:59 <wendyreid> ... which would be important I think to mention
16:42:24 <wendyreid> ... there are techniques both for EPUB and the web where you would not put the extended description on a separate page and link to it
16:43:05 <wendyreid> ... also, I feel that the document is not explicitly about EPUB publications only, but the technique mentioned mostly for EPUB, on the web you'd probably use details, or some other element on the same page as the image
16:43:17 <wendyreid> ... it doesn't make sense to create a separate page for the descriptions
16:43:17 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:44:21 <wendyreid> ... something that we touched upon in the TIES meeting earlier this week, was that one possible use case in reading systems for this semantic markup would be to have functionality for hiding or skipping extended descriptions in the main text flow,
16:44:32 <wendyreid> ... because the option of having extended descriptions in the main text flow isn't mentioned, that is a gap
16:45:27 <wendyreid> CharlesL: We referenced skippability and escapability, visually you may also want to do the same thing, link or within the document, to be able to hide those to not interact, would impact TTS or MO interactions
16:45:39 <wendyreid> ... that use case is important to show because it's hard without these semantics
16:45:51 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: The document is created to emphasize the need for these semantics
16:46:05 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:46:07 <wendyreid> ... as to the other comment about aria-details pointing to the same page
16:46:12 <wendyreid> ... how does it highlight the need?
16:46:17 <wendyreid> CharlesL: I think it does
16:46:53 <wendyreid> ... it's the same thing, it's just another option that publishers want to use, to have the extended description by the image, in something like an aside, but you need to be able to do the same processing on the same page or a different document
16:47:06 <wendyreid> ... we don't want to prevent the publisher or force them into one way of doing things
16:47:19 <wendyreid> ... we want the same functionality and features for all use cases
16:47:29 <wendyreid> ... we don't need to limit if its on the page or not
16:48:02 <wendyreid> mgarrish: This is sort of the challenge when we go to ARIA, they may only take the extended description on the main page as an ARIA property, may not like the linking
16:48:09 <wendyreid> ... depends on what they see as a viable approach
16:48:24 <wendyreid> CharlesL: Let's not give them an excuse to dismiss the idea
16:48:39 <wendyreid> mgarrish: Ultimately we're presenting the EPUB need, not the web, but we'll see
16:49:06 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: All of us alluding towards allowing aria-details pointing within the document as well as outside
16:49:23 <wendyreid> mgarrish: Gives them something they might understand, friendlier to their way of thinking
16:49:41 <gautierchomel_> q+
16:49:47 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:49:57 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
16:50:15 <wendyreid> gautierchomel_: I'm not sure I caught everything, I understand that we should not speak about external files?
16:50:30 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: I don't think we're removing that approach, we are including the same file approach
16:50:35 <wendyreid> CharlesL: Adding to, not removing
16:50:53 <wendyreid> gautierchomel_: The sample pattern has extended description file, need to update
16:51:06 <wendyreid> ... I'll open an issue with what I understand and people can contribute to that
16:51:26 <wendyreid> ... easier for me to understand that
16:51:33 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: We'll add to the issue
16:51:36 <wendyreid> ... anything else?
16:51:37 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:52:06 <AvneeshSingh> topics: DPUB ARIA roles proposed/discussed by us in past.
16:52:18 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: Discussion of DPUB-ARIA roles of the past, we've not taken actions for that
16:52:25 <wendyreid> ... are there other DPUB-ARIA roles that we need to do something about
16:52:27 <gpellegrino> q+
16:52:28 <AvneeshSingh> https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y/issues/740
16:52:39 <AvneeshSingh> https://github.com/w3c/dpub-aria/issues/
16:52:45 <wendyreid> gpellegrino: One was about questions and answers
16:52:48 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
16:53:09 <wendyreid> ... since we worked with educational publishers, we had some troubles identifying interactive exercises in publications
16:53:18 <wendyreid> ... it was raised in the past, there was some pushback
16:53:37 <wendyreid> ... no way to identify an item that is an interactive exercise, might be problematic
16:53:39 <wendyreid> q+
16:54:12 <wendyreid> mgarrish: That's going back 10 years, it was something we brought up when we did the initial DPUB-ARIA work, it was shot down
16:54:16 <wendyreid> ... didn't see the need for it
16:54:21 <wendyreid> ... not specific enough
16:54:39 <wendyreid> ... if we're going to make a foray into education, it's more than EPUB
16:54:51 <wendyreid> ... we shouldn't create stuff in the DPUB space that isn't exclusive to EPUB
16:55:14 <gpellegrino> q+
16:55:24 <wendyreid> ... there is lots of stuff on the web in the education space outside of EPUB, I don't know how we get there without looking at an educational module
16:55:33 <wendyreid> ... or support from educational publishers more generally
16:55:47 <wendyreid> ... or backing from industry
16:56:06 <wendyreid> ... it looks like we're just trying to add things, I see a lot of problems, it's not something you'd associate with book structure
16:56:13 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:56:14 <wendyreid> ... we can try again, but I have reservations
16:56:23 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
16:56:38 <CharlesL> wendyreid: I have the same reservations.  What is the point of semantics like this?
16:57:09 <CharlesL> ... what do we want that ARIA semantics doesn't already have? is this a metadata play?
16:57:23 <CharlesL> ... if you are to have doc-qna what does that mean?
16:58:09 <CharlesL> q+
16:58:20 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
16:58:41 <wendyreid> gpellegrino: I agree it is not something related to digital publications, but maybe we can raise to the broader ARIA group, get publisher support
16:59:25 <wendyreid> ... what is the goal? In digital publications, exercises are noted graphically, easy to identify visually, not as easy to find with AT
17:00:11 <wendyreid> gpellegrino: The use case is to make the content discoverable, but maybe forms or another element could serve this purpose
17:00:29 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: We need to consider how we can pursuade ARIA, we need to have strong explanations
17:00:32 <CharlesL> q-
17:00:37 <wendyreid> ... we need to do some homework before we go to ARIA
17:00:49 <wendyreid> CharlesL: I was going to agree with gpellegrino
17:01:20 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: I'm worry about these going simultaneously, we have ext descriptions, and interactivity roles, but we need to weigh it
17:01:28 <CharlesL> another use case would be print out a list of questions. possibly :)
17:01:38 <wendyreid> ... thanks everyone, please give your feedback on the open PRs
17:01:52 <wendyreid> rrsagent, please make minutes
17:01:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/01/22-pmwg-a11y-minutes.html wendyreid
17:02:08 <wendyreid> rrsagent, make logs public
17:02:43 <muntxi> Thank you for the interesting discussions!
17:02:44 <AvneeshSingh> rrsagent, make minutes
17:02:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/01/22-pmwg-a11y-minutes.html AvneeshSingh
17:02:54 <AvneeshSingh> rrsagent, make logs public
17:03:53 <AvneeshSingh> zakim leave
17:04:12 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, leave
17:04:12 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been AvneeshSingh, Review, of, PR:, Add, aural, rendering, tts, sections, wendyreid, gpellegrino, CharlesL, Jonas, Madeleine,
17:04:12 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pmwg-a11y
17:04:15 <Zakim> ... gautierchomel_
17:24:30 <muntxi> muntxi has joined #pmwg-a11y
17:56:18 <gautierchomel> gautierchomel has joined #pmwg-a11y
18:06:23 <gautierchomel> gautierchomel has joined #pmwg-a11y
18:23:28 <gautierchomel> gautierchomel has joined #pmwg-a11y
18:46:38 <mgarrish> mgarrish has joined #pmwg-a11y
19:23:18 <gautierchomel> gautierchomel has joined #pmwg-a11y
19:40:06 <gautierchomel> gautierchomel has joined #pmwg-a11y
19:46:42 <CharlesL> CharlesL has left #pmwg-a11y
19:56:38 <gautierchomel> gautierchomel has joined #pmwg-a11y
20:13:10 <gautierchomel> gautierchomel has joined #pmwg-a11y
20:30:38 <gautierchomel> gautierchomel has joined #pmwg-a11y
20:48:03 <gautierchomel> gautierchomel has joined #pmwg-a11y
20:57:37 <gautierchomel> gautierchomel has joined #pmwg-a11y
21:15:59 <gautierchomel> gautierchomel has joined #pmwg-a11y
21:33:51 <gautierchomel> gautierchomel has joined #pmwg-a11y
21:53:41 <gautierchomel> gautierchomel has joined #pmwg-a11y
22:14:49 <gautierchomel> gautierchomel has joined #pmwg-a11y
22:34:13 <gautierchomel> gautierchomel has joined #pmwg-a11y
23:50:32 <gautierchomel> gautierchomel has joined #pmwg-a11y
23:59:37 <gautierchomel> gautierchomel has joined #pmwg-a11y