17:50:09 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pdf-aam
17:50:13 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/01/21-pdf-aam-irc
17:50:13 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:50:14 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Daniel
17:50:34 <Daniel> Meeting: PDF-AAM Task Force Teleconference
17:50:36 <Daniel> Chair: Daniel
17:50:40 <Daniel> scribe: Daniel
17:50:57 <Daniel> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/c7d1aeb2-f3af-416b-a778-b17a4ad33814/20260121T100000/#agenda
17:50:59 <agendabot> clear agenda
17:50:59 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Alphabetize the AAM entries based on PLSI name https://github.com/w3c/pdf-aam/issues/22
17:50:59 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Export - 7 - Table Structure elements https://github.com/w3c/pdf-aam/issues/27
17:50:59 <agendabot> agenda+ AOB
18:01:36 <zkinsey> zkinsey has joined #pdf-aam
18:01:44 <zkinsey> Present +
18:03:31 <Daniel> present+ Daniel
18:04:15 <Daniel> zakim, agenda?
18:04:15 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
18:04:16 <Zakim> 1. -> Alphabetize the AAM entries based on PLSI name https://github.com/w3c/pdf-aam/issues/22 [from agendabot]
18:04:16 <Zakim> 2. -> Export - 7 - Table Structure elements https://github.com/w3c/pdf-aam/issues/27 [from agendabot]
18:04:16 <Zakim> 3. AOB [from agendabot]
18:05:00 <Roman> Roman has joined #pdf-aam
18:05:17 <zkinsey> present+ Zak
18:06:04 <Daniel> zakim, agenda?
18:06:04 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
18:06:05 <Zakim> 1. -> Alphabetize the AAM entries based on PLSI name https://github.com/w3c/pdf-aam/issues/22 [from agendabot]
18:06:05 <Zakim> 2. -> Export - 7 - Table Structure elements https://github.com/w3c/pdf-aam/issues/27 [from agendabot]
18:06:05 <Zakim> 3. AOB [from agendabot]
18:06:30 <Daniel> zakim, take up item 2
18:06:30 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> Export - 7 - Table Structure elements https://github.com/w3c/pdf-aam/issues/27 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:06:55 <spectranaut_> spectranaut_ has joined #pdf-aam
18:07:10 <Daniel> Zaak: Braking the structure elements into the different export groups, currently 16
18:07:32 <Daniel> ... For tables, we'r almost ready for structure table elements
18:07:33 <jcraig> present+
18:07:43 <jcraig> s/Zaak/Zak
18:07:51 <Daniel> ... For table headers with scope is set to both, wwe are unsure what an analogous aria role would be, or if this is going to require something else
18:07:57 <jcraig> present+ zkinsey
18:08:13 <Daniel> spectranaut_: Can you explain this?
18:08:25 <Daniel> Roman:  This is specific to PDF, HTML doesn't have that
18:08:33 <Daniel> ... We'll need to invent something new
18:08:42 <Daniel> spectranaut_:  Is there an example of a PDF where scope is set to both?
18:09:09 <Daniel> JamesC: Usually the top left column
18:09:33 <Daniel> Zaak: But you could have sub tables within tables, where one row would apply to a number of rows inside the column
18:09:44 <Daniel> ... It can occur on the x axes of the table
18:09:53 <Daniel> ... Common in banking or investment tables
18:10:08 <Daniel> ... Header identifying a stock trade, but then there's other headers that also apply
18:10:20 <Daniel> JamesC: Worth considering in the context of treegrid as well
18:10:42 <Daniel> spectranaut_: Do existing mappings ffor Windows have some concept? What does Adobe currently do?
18:11:03 <jcraig> s/JamesC/jcraig/gi
18:11:08 <Daniel> Roman: Currently they expose the value of the scope attribute, AT decision whether they make something meaningful
18:11:18 <Daniel> ... NVDA doesn't announce anything I'd say, but I may be wrong
18:11:37 <jcraig> s/Zak /zkinsey /gi
18:11:45 <jcraig> s/Zak: /zkinsey: /gi
18:11:58 <Daniel> Zaak: If a person is inside of a cell they're supposed to be able to ask what it is
18:12:13 <Daniel> spectranaut_: What do you think for AXAPI?
18:12:27 <Daniel> JamesC: I don't remember if it's supported
18:13:14 <Daniel> spectranaut_: From a mapping perspective, you have to start with what's available but you could advocate for new data within the API
18:13:26 <jcraig> s/ if it's supported/ if it's supported; not common... possibly not in any Apple-developed app. Possibly in Numbers./
18:13:33 <Daniel> ... IF you just expose it with one of the two directions, would it be obvious at least what's going on?
18:13:56 <Daniel> Zaak: There's going to be multiple structure elements that won't be one-to-one mapping
18:14:07 <jcraig> s/JamesC/jcraig/gi
18:14:19 <Daniel> ... New API data may be a longer process. My question is what we can do in the short term
18:14:19 <jcraig> s/Zaak/Zak
18:14:27 <Daniel> ... What do we want to say in that table?
18:15:56 <Daniel> spectranaut_:  For mappings you are not satisfied with there can be some * or some link to a note that says that mapping will evolve
18:16:44 <Daniel> jcraig: Maybe an editorial note or TBD
18:17:14 <jcraig> q+ to respond to Roman after Daniel
18:17:40 <jcraig> qq+ Daniel
18:17:44 <Daniel> Roman: Sometimes we use scope as a flag. We sometimes have column or row.
18:17:58 <Daniel> spectranaut_: That concept doesn't exist in ARIA because it doesn't exist in accessibility APIs
18:18:33 <Daniel> spectranaut_: Even if it's not good mapping, some advice is welcome for people not to do different things
18:18:57 <jcraig> q+ to disagree with spectranaut_ about AAM editors "suggesting" API mappings directly to engine vendors
18:19:03 <Daniel> Roman: We may want to map it to column officially for implementers to have a common understanding
18:19:24 <Daniel> spectranaut_: Sometimes you waant to be very specific, others it's up to the PDF author to decide whatever is more important
18:19:45 <Daniel> Roman: We cannot do that, because in our standards we need to be very accurate and we need to follow "both"
18:20:34 <jcraig> ack D
18:20:34 <Zakim> Daniel, you wanted to react to a previous speaker
18:21:24 <jcraig> ack me
18:21:24 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to respond to Roman after Daniel and to disagree with spectranaut_ about AAM editors "suggesting" API mappings directly to engine vendors
18:21:56 <Daniel> Daniel: This one in particular is critical for tables to be useful. Others may not be as critical, research is desired
18:22:45 <Daniel> jcraig: We may want to take a "pick and choose" approach to decide waht to advocate for to the platform API owners
18:23:14 <Daniel> ... But the AAM list should be a complete list.
18:23:51 <Daniel> ... The prerrogative of the API owner should be to decide what to do if there's no mapping
18:24:13 <Daniel> spectranaut_: You don't wwant someone to put this as table cell because there's no both.
18:24:26 <Daniel> ... No perfect solutions, but there can be wrong solutions
18:24:47 <Daniel> ... It should be a header element
18:25:24 <Daniel> ... In some cases we do need a fallback
18:25:59 <Daniel> zkinsey: Editorially it needs to be clear that we're working on this, but until that happens, a fallback of either row or column should be used and then let them choose at their discretion
18:26:27 <Daniel> ... I see your point that this shouldn't be ignored
18:27:00 <Daniel> zakim, take up next
18:27:00 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> Alphabetize the AAM entries based on PLSI name https://github.com/w3c/pdf-aam/issues/22 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:27:20 <Daniel> Daniel: There's already a PR for this, which is linked to the issue. It's now ready for review
18:28:11 <Daniel> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:28:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/01/21-pdf-aam-minutes.html Daniel
18:33:21 <Daniel> present+ Roman
18:34:37 <Daniel> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:34:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/01/21-pdf-aam-minutes.html Daniel
18:35:00 <Daniel> zakim, end meeting
18:35:00 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Daniel, Zak, jcraig, zkinsey, Roman
18:35:03 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:35:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/01/21-pdf-aam-minutes.html Zakim
18:35:09 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Daniel; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
18:35:11 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pdf-aam
18:35:16 <Daniel> rrsagent, bye
18:35:16 <RRSAgent> I see no action items