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13:01:23 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group
13:02:46 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Details 2026-01-15: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2026Jan/0014.html
13:02:47 <ivan> Chair: wendy
13:02:47 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group Telco
13:02:47 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2026Jan/0014.html
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14:01:19 <ivan> present+ sueneu, shiestyle
14:01:33 <ivan> present+ dale
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14:03:11 <ivan> scribe+ sueneu
14:03:41 <ivan> present+ hadrien
14:03:41 <wendyreid> Topic: EPUB Blog Post
14:03:46 <wendyreid> https://www.w3.org/blog/2026/epub-and-html-survey-results-and-next-steps/
14:03:51 <ivan> present+ charles
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14:04:01 <sueneu> wendyreid: the blog post about HTML survey has been posted
14:04:02 <Hadrien> present +
14:04:06 <wendyreid> https://www.w3.org/zh-hans/blog/2026/epub-and-html-survey-results-and-next-steps/
14:04:26 <sueneu> …feel free to share it. There is a translation into Chinese, and a Japanese translation is coming
14:04:48 <wendyreid> Topic: Annotations Vocabulary
14:04:57 <sueneu> wendyreid: first up the annotations vocabulary
14:05:18 <sueneu> @ivan: this is a technical thing we must do
14:05:37 <sueneu> …the annotation work relies on the W3C annotation done in JSON LD
14:05:58 <sueneu> …any change we do on vocabulary we have to publish a proper vocabuary
14:06:06 <sueneu> …and define terms in a formal way
14:06:11 <sueneu> …I have a tool to do that
14:06:23 <sueneu> …we have put the vocabulary and tools in the repository
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14:06:36 <shiestyle> s/@ivan:/ivan:/
14:06:48 <sueneu> …at some point we need to decide if this is published as a W3C note or leave it as a document on github
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14:07:03 <sueneu> …publishing it as a note indicates stability and I am in favor of it
14:07:34 <ivan> -> current version of the vocabulary https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/epub34/annotations-vocab/
14:07:53 <ivan> present+ gman
14:07:56 <sueneu> wendyreid: any thoughts?
14:08:03 <GeorgeK> q+
14:08:04 <ivan> present+ elizabeth
14:08:07 <wendyreid> ack GeorgeK
14:08:14 <gman> present+
14:08:32 <sueneu> GeorgeK: with the previous voabulary from annotations, are we extending it?
14:08:53 <sueneu> @ivan: we are not changing the semantics, but we are creating some restrictions
14:09:08 <sueneu> …when it comes to EPUB only certain values are permitted as sub properties
14:09:26 <sueneu> …there is one new concept, the annotation set, that we have defined for ourselves
14:09:43 <wendyreid> q?
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14:10:22 <sueneu> @ivan: is there anyone who opposes publishing this as a note when the time comes?
14:10:31 <duga> q+
14:10:36 <wendyreid> ack duga
14:10:56 <sueneu> duga: just to clarify, what is the timing of the note?
14:11:18 <sueneu> @ivan: when we publish the first working draft, and both documents will evolve in parallel
14:11:24 <DaleRogers> q+
14:11:28 <sueneu> @ivan: the official name will be a draft note
14:11:30 <wendyreid> ack DaleRogers
14:12:33 <gman> q+
14:12:39 <wendyreid> ack gman
14:13:05 <sueneu> gman: there are several segments of the text where it is explicity stated that they are placeholders
14:13:27 <sueneu> @ivan: those are there because in the current iteration of the spec they are not designed
14:14:29 <wendyreid> Topic: <img> in SMIL -  https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2883
14:14:57 <sueneu> @Hadrien: SMIL allows references to text, audio, and video
14:15:30 <sueneu> …currently in epub we only use text. It references IDs. We also use the audio element without a time fragment
14:15:35 <ivan> strictly speaking, 'img' and the others are defined as "alias" or 'ref'
14:15:44 <ivan> s/or/of/
14:15:53 <sueneu> …a number of specialized libraries have experimented with narrated comics using pre recorded audio
14:16:21 <sueneu> …the current spec doesn't provide a good way to do this, so the current experiments are in proprietary formats
14:16:43 <sueneu> …I have been investigating how much work it would be to support this in EPUB
14:17:00 <sueneu> …we would need a way to specify a fragment of an image
14:17:16 <ivan> q+
14:17:22 <sueneu> …we can either use regions or spacial fragments, which I think is much easier
14:17:37 <sueneu> …we already use this in a few other pages
14:17:59 <sueneu> …there is interest for this, there is no format to do this either in DAISY or EPUB
14:18:18 <sueneu> …it is a pretty small gap to allow this feature in EPUB
14:18:25 <wendyreid> ack ivan
14:18:32 <duga> q+
14:18:52 <sueneu> @ivan: for the record, the SMIL specification predates the specification for media fragments
14:19:10 <sueneu> …I agree that in 2025 we should use media fragments
14:19:35 <sueneu> …are there any prospects of real epub readers that would implement this
14:19:48 <Hadrien> q+ to discuss implementations
14:19:51 <sueneu> …we need two independent implementations for a new feature
14:19:56 <wendyreid> ack duga
14:20:20 <sueneu> duga: I think there were RS that were offering implementations
14:20:26 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
14:20:26 <Zakim> Hadrien, you wanted to discuss implementations
14:21:09 <sueneu> Hadrien: there is support in readium to support this, once it is in the Readium toolkit it is pretty easy to support
14:21:23 <sueneu> …Thorium will support this
14:21:29 <ivan> q+
14:21:42 <sueneu> …I have asked the maintainer of StoryTeller to support this also
14:22:09 <sueneu> …it is mostly used by people who do this on their own, who offer this to their library patrons
14:22:18 <duga> q+
14:22:28 <sueneu> …I cannot commit on the timeline for Storyteller but Thorium will support it this year
14:23:10 <GeorgeK> q+
14:23:13 <sueneu> @ivan: Thorium is clear, Storyteller, from the official point of view, the AC would ask for an EPUB Reader like Thorium
14:23:22 <sueneu> …to really implement and use this
14:23:31 <CharlesL> q+
14:23:39 <sueneu> …Colibrio would be fine, it doesn't need to a big player
14:23:49 <ivan> ack duga
14:24:03 <sueneu> Hadrien: I expect specialized libraries to use this
14:24:26 <ivan> ack ivan
14:24:33 <sueneu> @ivan: if I have an EPUB that uses this, I should be able to read it in another system
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14:24:49 <sueneu> duga: what are the implications for existing implementations for Read Aloud?
14:25:16 <sueneu> …could a publisher just reference portions of an image and not have the audio overlay? The image would then be the synced media?
14:25:20 <ivan> present+ mgarrish
14:25:33 <sueneu> …is that a potential use here? are we worried about it
14:25:57 <sueneu> Hadrien: I don't think it would be a good thing to overload text
14:26:11 <sueneu> …wrapping an image in text is a bad thing for accessibility
14:26:31 <sueneu> …the benefit of having image, is opening the door to image based content
14:26:55 <sueneu> …it also opens the door to something highly visual in nature, plus audio, and a textural element
14:27:18 <duga> q+
14:27:19 <sueneu> …it opens the door to more things without negatively impacting the current system
14:27:39 <sueneu> …media support in EPUB remains more limited than we wish
14:27:57 <sueneu> …even with the current take on media overlays things could be better with RS support
14:28:08 <wendyreid> ack GeorgeK
14:28:53 <sueneu> GeorgeK: …read aloud means to me, taking the text and playing it into the system, different than audio overlays
14:29:13 <sueneu> …if we have a fixed image, and there are four audio clips in parallel with that image
14:29:29 <sueneu> …the media fragment shifts focus on the image, would you have something like
14:29:54 <sueneu> …two people in an image, a focus on one person, then a shift to the other person like a conversation
14:30:06 <sueneu> Hadrien: that is one way you could implement it
14:30:15 <DaleRogers> q+
14:30:23 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
14:30:24 <sueneu> …currently they can zoom into a panel and play the audio from that panel
14:30:55 <ivan> q+
14:31:05 <sueneu> CharlesL: about implementation concerns, I don't think we need explicitly two reading system implementations
14:31:14 <mgarrish> q+
14:31:20 <sueneu> …just two implementations of the technology so a tool would be fine
14:31:51 <sueneu> …if you had a screen reader enabled, and you have the textural part overlayed on audio, I'm trying to understand
14:32:02 <duga> q?
14:32:18 <sueneu> GeorgeK: I think the SMIL implementation would play and the screen reader would be silent
14:32:26 <wendyreid> ack duga
14:32:28 <sueneu> …if you pause the screen reader
14:32:47 <sueneu> duga: when I said Read Aloud I meant reading the included audio
14:33:05 <sueneu> …to Hadrien 's point, we have a flow for children's books
14:33:27 <sueneu> …the publisher adds audio to existing images/media
14:33:51 <sueneu> …the reading system then takes that and plays it
14:34:11 <sueneu> …is it expected now that Reading Systems must synchronize the audio?
14:34:24 <sueneu> …are we breaking children's books by enabling this?
14:34:53 <sueneu> Hadrien: I don't think this is very likely. Producing an audio layer is much more work than including text
14:35:20 <sueneu> …the kind of org that will produce this media overlay is one that cares deeply about accessibility
14:35:35 <sueneu> …the cost is much higher to produce them
14:35:36 <wendyreid> ack DaleRogers
14:35:55 <sueneu> duga: these are not text to speech books, but with media overlays
14:36:43 <sueneu> DaleRogers: I wonder if there would be a smooth transition from one image fragment to another?
14:37:30 <sueneu> Hadrien: this is not about controlling visual presentation. A lot of movement can be hard for people with certain sensitivities
14:37:32 <wendyreid> qq+
14:37:38 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
14:37:38 <Zakim> wendyreid, you wanted to react to DaleRogers
14:38:04 <sueneu> wendreid: for example, a lot of RS have settings for page turn behavior. I think this would fall in that same class
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14:38:25 <sueneu> …especially on mobile, where you can have mulitple page turns actions
14:38:31 <wendyreid> ack ivan
14:38:50 <sueneu> @ivan: we may be getting into areas that are not covered by this proposal
14:39:09 <sueneu> …the original SMIL spec refers only to the ref element
14:39:17 <gpellegrino> present+
14:39:34 <sueneu> …the spec doesn't say anything about transitions
14:40:00 <sueneu> …it is always a trick discussion about the AC and how they accept implementation reprots
14:40:19 <sueneu> …I think beyond the legal terminology for the process, they ask
14:40:36 <sueneu> …if I create a book with this feature, am I stuck with only one reading system?
14:41:01 <sueneu> …if we decide to put this in the spec, we mark it as an at risk feature
14:41:18 <GeorgeK> q+
14:41:23 <sueneu> …so if we don't get enough implementation we can easily remove it at the end without triggering reviews
14:41:24 <wendyreid> ack mgarrish
14:42:06 <sueneu> mgarrish: you want to see two similar implementations, like two Reading Systems and two authoring systems
14:42:20 <sueneu> …is this incubation material? Where are we going with this?
14:42:21 <ivan> q+
14:42:36 <sueneu> …is it at the point we want to implement this?
14:42:50 <Hadrien> q+
14:43:13 <sueneu> …what are the knock on implications? I'd like to be sure of this before we add this to the implementation at the end of the process
14:43:36 <sueneu> …maybe the at risk implementation or a cg note would be the way to do this
14:43:40 <wendyreid> ack GeorgeK
14:43:56 <sueneu> GeorgeK: what is the relationship of this technique to other ways to make comics?
14:44:15 <sueneu> …it seems like an alternative to other developments for comics
14:44:28 <CharlesL> q+
14:44:47 <sueneu> Hadrien: this is directly a response to a number of specialized libraries have implemented especially in Northern Europe
14:45:05 <gman> Hadrien the proprietary use cases in Scandinavia are comics only?
14:45:10 <sueneu> …they have produced files that do this, and everyone does it slightly differently
14:45:24 <sueneu> …I look at what people are using, and what people need
14:45:46 <sueneu> …this is quite specialized, mostly about adaptive content, but it is missing
14:46:00 <sueneu> …this is different than adding something no one asked for
14:46:19 <sueneu> GeorgeK: I have seen the US Library of Congress dabbling with this too
14:46:24 <wendyreid> ack ivan
14:46:33 <sueneu> Hadrien: this is one way we can support this
14:47:04 <sueneu> @ivan: I don't see this as an incubation matter because we don't have to create new vocabulary
14:47:23 <sueneu> …we are just allowing a tiny bit of what is already in SMIL in EPUB
14:47:44 <sueneu> …it is defined already, we just allow it here
14:47:48 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
14:47:55 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
14:48:18 <sueneu> CharlesL: I get your point about two implementations on one side or another, and the
14:48:34 <sueneu> …Readium implementation could go out to multiple readers
14:48:39 <Hadrien> q+
14:48:58 <sueneu> …in a comic, could you have it read each panel in the correct order
14:49:19 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
14:49:23 <sueneu> …if you click a Read button in the RS, would it do that? Is this a potential use case
14:49:41 <sueneu> Hadrien: yes, you could have a panel with a textural and/or an audio equivalent
14:49:56 <gman> q+
14:49:59 <wendyreid> ack gman
14:50:40 <sueneu> gman: another potential use case is language acquisition/application. Having two audio setups in a Manga
14:50:42 <gpellegrino> a new Grigoriy in our group <3
14:50:51 <sueneu> …you could switch between the translations
14:51:09 <sueneu> …this kind of use case could be studied a bit further
14:51:30 <sueneu> Hadrien: I think this is different. You are talking about having two images in two languages?
14:51:44 <sueneu> gman: SMIL doesn't support multiple track?
14:51:55 <sueneu> Hadrien: not as we use it, no
14:52:17 <sueneu> wendyreid: that gets into something we are also discussing, parallelized content
14:52:34 <sueneu> …we may have an open Issue about that where we do want to talk about language acquisition
14:52:59 <gautierchomel> Parallels content is a discussion at https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/discussions/2829
14:53:05 <sueneu> …this is where text to speech might be better than SMIL so they can choose their narration voice
14:53:17 <sueneu> …SMIL is fixed, referencing specific content
14:53:30 <sueneu> …it sounds to me like we want to keep exploring this
14:53:40 <sueneu> …it might not be a huge change to the spec
14:53:51 <duga> q+
14:53:58 <sueneu> …the major question is if we have the right amount of implementations
14:54:25 <sueneu> …I'm concerned about industry uptake, if it will be supported by most major reading systems
14:54:42 <sueneu> …we need to make sure that there is more than one reading platform available
14:54:52 <wendyreid> ack duga
14:54:56 <sueneu> …just for the sake of user choice
14:55:15 <sueneu> duga: I'm not convinced, I'm still worried about breaking existing workflows.
14:55:38 <sueneu> …there is nothing tying this to specific content, and I would need more reassurance that people
14:55:53 <sueneu> …won't start making children's books that would break on current reading systems
14:56:25 <sueneu> wendreid: we have a greenlight to keep studying this. Can we get sample files to study?
14:56:46 <sueneu> Hadrien: Nota has public examples. We might get the files in JSON
14:56:52 <ivan> q+
14:56:57 <wendyreid> ack ivan
14:57:51 <sueneu> @ivan: I'd like to explore what it means editiorialy, can Hadrien do a draft PR for the author and RS specs?
14:58:11 <sueneu> Hadrien: I can do this, but not immediately, maybe in February
14:58:36 <gman> Hadrien on one of these sleepless nights
14:58:41 <sueneu> wendyreid: we will carry over our last topic, selectors, next week
14:59:49 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:59:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/01/15-pmwg-minutes.html ivan
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