17:53:48 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:53:52 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2026/01/08-aria-irc
17:53:52 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:53:53 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA WG
17:54:09 <spectranaut_> agendabot, find agenda
17:54:09 <agendabot> spectranaut_, OK. This may take a minute...
17:54:10 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/690d057f-db6d-4169-b13f-68d7f1336b59/20260108T130000/
17:54:10 <agendabot> clear agenda
17:54:10 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://github.com/search?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created:%3E=2025-12-18+repo:w3c/aria&type=Issues
17:54:10 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/4s4vtxne
17:54:13 <agendabot> agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y
17:54:15 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
17:54:18 <agendabot> agenda+ -> non-focusable widget roles nested within elements with children presentational https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2699
17:54:21 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Add "living recommendation" prose to start of all AAM documents https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2514
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18:03:18 <jcraig> present+
18:03:19 <giacomo-petri> present+
18:03:31 <filippo-zorzi> present+
18:03:45 <Rahim> present+
18:03:47 <katez> present+
18:03:49 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria
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18:03:50 <markrogers> present+
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18:04:06 <Francis_Storr> present+
18:04:06 <pkra> present+
18:04:09 <dgrogan> present+
18:04:09 <Adam_Page> present+
18:04:15 <spectranaut_> agendabot, drop item 6
18:04:15 <agendabot> spectranaut_, sorry, I don't understand "drop item 6". Try "agendabot, help".
18:04:16 <jamesn> agenda?
18:05:17 <spectranaut_> agendabot, help
18:05:17 <agendabot> spectranaut_, I am an instance of AgendaBot 0.5. For detailed help, type "help COMMAND", where COMMAND is one of invite, agenda, find, suggest, accept, this is, forget, status or bye. Or go to https://w3c.github.io/AgendaBot/manual.html
18:05:34 <Stefan> Stefan has joined #aria
18:05:44 <Daniel> zakim, agenda?
18:05:44 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
18:05:44 <Stefan> present+
18:05:45 <eloisa> eloisa has joined #aria
18:05:46 <Zakim> 1. -> New PR Triage https://github.com/search?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created:%3E=2025-12-18+repo:w3c/aria&type=Issues [from agendabot]
18:05:46 <Zakim> 2. -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/4s4vtxne [from agendabot]
18:05:46 <Zakim> 3. -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y [from agendabot]
18:05:46 <Zakim> 4. -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates [from agendabot]
18:05:49 <Zakim> 5. -> non-focusable widget roles nested within elements with children presentational https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2699 [from agendabot]
18:05:49 <Zakim> 6. -> Add "living recommendation" prose to start of all AAM documents https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2514 [from agendabot]
18:05:56 <spectranaut_> zakim, drop item 6
18:05:56 <Zakim> agendum 6, -> Add "living recommendation" prose to start of all AAM documents https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2514, dropped
18:06:02 <Adam_Page> scribe: Adam_Page
18:06:02 <spectranaut_> scribe?
18:06:08 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:06:08 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New PR Triage https://github.com/search?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created:%3E=2025-12-18+repo:w3c/aria&type=Issues -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:06:08 <github-bot> I can't comment on that because it doesn't look like a github issue to me.
18:06:52 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: aria#2703
18:06:59 <Adam_Page> ... exciting new PR from Daniel
18:07:42 <Priti> Priti has joined #aria
18:07:46 <Adam_Page> ... for improving netlify preview
18:07:53 <Adam_Page> Daniel: still working on it
18:07:59 <Adam_Page> ... it won’t work in some cases
18:08:00 <Priti> present+
18:08:20 <Adam_Page> jamesn: we generally work in branches, not forks — so it not working on forks is no big deal
18:08:40 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: but sometimes ARIA members do make changes from fork
18:08:57 <Adam_Page> ... needs reviewers
18:09:24 <Adam_Page> pkra: I’ll review
18:09:24 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: aria#2702
18:09:26 <Adam_Page> ... editorial
18:09:47 <Adam_Page> jcraig: I’ll review
18:10:09 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: I’ll also review
18:10:12 <Adam_Page> jamesn: me too
18:10:18 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: approved
18:10:27 <Adam_Page> ... can be merged now
18:10:29 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:10:29 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/4s4vtxne -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:10:29 <github-bot> I can't comment on that because it doesn't look like a github issue to me.
18:10:41 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: css-aam#16
18:10:45 <Adam_Page> ... from pkra
18:10:50 <Adam_Page> ... clarify CSS generated content alt text
18:11:01 <Adam_Page> pkra: just stumbled upon this morning
18:11:24 <Adam_Page> ... and thought CSS-AAM might want to tackle
18:11:24 <Adam_Page> jcraig: I thought this was already covered in accname
18:11:35 <Adam_Page> ... it doesn’t mention them
18:11:44 <Adam_Page> jcraig: I know we’ve got WPT tests for this
18:11:56 <Adam_Page> ... I’ll look into it
18:12:26 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: html-aam#595
18:12:29 <Adam_Page> ... also from pkra
18:12:40 <Adam_Page> ... update img alt accname to match aria-label
18:12:46 <Adam_Page> pkra: this came out of a convo with scott
18:12:56 <Adam_Page> ... came up from validator updates
18:13:03 <Adam_Page> ... they asked for input
18:13:32 <Adam_Page> ... should be straightforward
18:13:48 <Adam_Page> Adam_Page: I’ll take it
18:14:00 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:14:00 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:14:00 <github-bot> I can't comment on that because it doesn't look like a github issue to me.
18:14:15 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: open WPT PRs
18:14:18 <Adam_Page> ... there are a couple
18:14:27 <Adam_Page> ... wpt#56902
18:14:37 <Adam_Page> jcraig: I commented and will review
18:14:58 <Adam_Page> ... and looking at Jacques’ second one now
18:15:24 <Adam_Page> cyns: I’ll review
18:15:24 <Adam_Page> jcraig: need to get you added to the repo
18:15:27 <Adam_Page> ... please reach out to Simon at Mozilla
18:15:33 <Adam_Page> ... zcorpan
18:16:11 <Adam_Page> ... thanks for this second PR, Jacques — have some questions but still reviewing
18:16:20 <Adam_Page> ... seems straightforward
18:16:27 <Adam_Page> Jacques: I’ll take a second pass
18:16:32 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:16:32 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:16:32 <github-bot> I can't comment on that because it doesn't look like a github issue to me.
18:16:55 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: we don’t have anything in queue
18:16:58 <Adam_Page> ... any topics?
18:17:24 <Adam_Page> jamesn: seems like we’re not having these often
18:17:24 <Adam_Page> ... which is fine
18:17:26 <Adam_Page> ... but please feel free to propose some
18:17:39 <Adam_Page> pkra: how about a backlog cleanup round?
18:17:44 <Adam_Page> ... spring cleaning, so to speak
18:17:46 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: yes!
18:18:10 <Adam_Page> jcraig: it’s a “shallow” dive 😉
18:18:19 <Adam_Page> ... like the idea of repurposing that time
18:18:23 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: how about next week?
18:18:30 <Adam_Page> ... next week! let’s do it, no objections
18:19:24 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:19:24 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- -> non-focusable widget roles nested within elements with children presentational https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2699 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:19:48 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: yay, github-bot
18:20:24 <Adam_Page> ... from giacomo-petri
18:20:54 <Adam_Page> giacomo-petri: I want to update that is not just about widget roles, but everything in general within roles that allow presentational children
18:21:02 <Adam_Page> ... right now, UAs are all exposing nested elements to AT
18:21:24 <Adam_Page> ... even though the parent specifies presentational children
18:21:28 <Adam_Page> ... I understand why UAs are doing it, but it still conflicts with the spec
18:21:50 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: hasn’t this conversation happened before? that we should cross-reference?
18:21:58 <Adam_Page> scott: looking through backlog, because I think you’re right
18:22:19 <Adam_Page> jcraig: I recall a convo with aaron
18:22:38 <Adam_Page> ... maybe some things to consider there are strong native semantics for focusability
18:22:47 <scott> here is one related issue: https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2509
18:22:53 <Adam_Page> ... because right now UAs do respect native focusability
18:22:58 <Adam_Page> ... the ARIA spec may not account for that
18:23:08 <giacomo-petri> q+
18:23:12 <jamesn> q+
18:23:16 <scott> q+
18:23:24 <Adam_Page> q?
18:23:26 <Adam_Page> giacomo-petri: we have conflict resolution
18:23:35 <Adam_Page> jcraig: but it might overlap with a different section about strong native semantics
18:23:44 <Adam_Page> ... for example `required` attribute overriding `aria-required`
18:23:59 <Adam_Page> ... but it still may not account for this
18:24:08 <Adam_Page> jamesn: Chromes started this by exposing button children
18:24:14 <Adam_Page> ... related to summary/details
18:24:39 <spectranaut_> ack giacomo-petri
18:24:41 <spectranaut_> ack jamesn
18:24:42 <Adam_Page> ... because HTML allowed <summary> to be stuffed
18:24:55 <spectranaut_> ack scott
18:25:35 <jcraig> q+
18:25:40 <Adam_Page> scott: there was some discussion we had in WG meetings about “do all roles really need to be exposed?”
18:25:57 <Adam_Page> ... for example a <main> inside a <button>
18:26:03 <spectranaut_> ack jcraig
18:26:36 <Adam_Page> jcraig: I remember some of this discussion being related to `aria-hidden` semantics, and its similarity to `presentation` behavior
18:26:56 <Adam_Page> ... things that `aria-hidden` from the a11y tree, until it must be exposed by virtue of something taking focus
18:27:08 <scott> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1174
18:27:41 <Adam_Page> scott: I just threw another even older issue in ☝🏻
18:27:59 <Adam_Page> ... I’ll throw these into giacomo-petri’s issue and any others I find, to consolidate
18:28:05 <Adam_Page> ... thank you for raising this again, giacomo-petri
18:28:14 <jcraig> Github: https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1174
18:29:27 <jcraig> GitHub: https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2699
18:29:33 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: seems like we should resolve this
18:29:42 <Adam_Page> ... maybe we can, in the next 30 min
18:30:03 <Adam_Page> ... do we want to figure out what cases we need to remove children: presentational from? to align with current UA behavior?
18:30:19 <Adam_Page> scott: while browsers “don’t” respect it, I know that JAWS does
18:30:53 <jcraig> q+ to mention the "browsers don't support it" may be more nuances... e.g. most input elements?
18:30:53 <Adam_Page> ... and have had multiple conversations with them where they expressed concerns
18:31:05 <jcraig> s/nuances/nuanced/
18:31:20 <spectranaut_> ack jcraig
18:31:20 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to mention the "browsers don't support it" may be more nuances... e.g. most input elements?
18:31:23 <Adam_Page> ... jcraig, can you recall if someone were to put a heading inside a button, can VO navigate into it?
18:31:23 <Adam_Page> ... definitely not on iOS
18:31:26 <Adam_Page> jcraig: certainly not a native button
18:31:31 <Adam_Page> ... but maybe a <div role="button">
18:31:52 <jcraig> ack me
18:31:57 <Adam_Page> ... browser support will be varied
18:32:33 <Adam_Page> scott: we should still interrogate these cases carefully
18:32:52 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: should we try to think of a list of cases?
18:33:02 <Adam_Page> ... maybe figure out what kind of investigation to do with SRs? Reach out to them?
18:33:52 <Adam_Page> jamesn: Mel was going to look into this
18:34:19 <Adam_Page> ... I don’t want to tackle this just for `button`; we should look at all the elements that do have presentational children
18:34:30 <Adam_Page> ... and figure out which ones we might want to allow nested interactives, and which ones we certainly don’t
18:34:52 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: do validators validate this?
18:34:53 <Adam_Page> jamesn: yes
18:35:00 <Adam_Page> ... in some cases
18:35:24 <Adam_Page> scott: yes, some cases, but they don’t catch everything
18:35:39 <Adam_Page> ... we started to try to make this normative in ARIA-in-HTML but didn’t finish
18:35:56 <Adam_Page> ... axe put some checks in and then pulled them out because of uncertainty
18:36:07 <giacomo-petri> q+
18:36:08 <Adam_Page> ... just also found #1455, which might be related
18:36:13 <Adam_Page> ... about `role="image"`
18:36:31 <spectranaut_> ack giacomo-petri
18:36:44 <Adam_Page> giacomo-petri: to jamesn’s point, think about a heading inside of a button
18:37:02 <Adam_Page> jamesn: if it’s something non-interactive, then you can just flatten it
18:37:04 <jcraig> Scott's referenced issue above: https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1455
18:37:24 <Adam_Page> ... you’ll remove semantics, but you won’t necessarily 100% break something
18:38:40 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: the main problem we’re trying to solve is that people want to nest interactives
18:39:25 <Adam_Page> jamesn: yes, sometimes, but often someone’s created something like a card, for example, where they enclose all the card content in a single `<button>`
18:39:37 <Adam_Page> ... and maybe we want to consider accommodating that
18:40:10 <Adam_Page> scott: parsing will prevent native interactives from being nested
18:40:17 <Adam_Page> ... but that can still be defeated with Javascript
18:40:51 <Adam_Page> ... while <button>s are not allowed inside <button>s, for example, HTML does still allow for interactives within <summary> which functionally acts like a button
18:41:43 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: no clear path forward for this
18:41:59 <Adam_Page> ... would be good if someone could champion this
18:42:13 <Adam_Page> scott: giacomo-petri, would you like to team up on this?
18:42:41 <Adam_Page> jamesn: definitely worth doing, but needs a good plan behind it; testing, investigation, etc.
18:43:24 <Adam_Page> scott: I’ll take assignment, I’ve already begun to do the research
18:43:25 <Adam_Page> giacomo-petri: I will help
18:43:30 <Adam_Page> pkra: I will also help
18:43:46 <Adam_Page> s/I will also help/and my axe!/
18:43:55 <giacomo-petri> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2685
18:43:55 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: any other topics, or should we start spring cleaning?
18:44:05 <Adam_Page> giacomo-petri: somewhat related ☝🏻
18:44:25 <Adam_Page> ... talks about presentational, allowed children, so could potentially be related
18:44:34 <Adam_Page> ... started creating a table with ideas/suggestions
18:44:53 <spectranaut_> shttps://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2685
18:45:05 <spectranaut_> s\https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2685\Topic: https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2685\
18:45:35 <spectranaut_> Topic: https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2685
18:45:54 <spectranaut_> Github: https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2685
18:46:21 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: can you explain the table, giacomo-petri?
18:46:54 <Adam_Page> giacomo-petri: the initial intent was to recognize the uselessness of having a radiogroup without radio buttons inside
18:47:23 <Adam_Page> ... but if we think about all the other roles that require specific accessibility descendants
18:47:25 <Adam_Page> ... for example an empty feed with no articles
18:47:28 <jcraig> seems like the issue should be renamed, since the scope is bigger than radio
18:47:35 <Adam_Page> ... could be okay if the articles are loaded asynchronously
18:47:51 <Adam_Page> ...but if you define a table, you definitely need table headers from the get
18:47:58 <Adam_Page> ... so in the table, I tried to distinguish
18:48:28 <Adam_Page> ... and made suggestions for each
18:48:45 <Adam_Page> ... for example, data table versus presentational table
18:49:02 <Adam_Page> ... there are roles without direct HTML counterparts
18:49:24 <Adam_Page> ... for example ARIA’s radiogroup role versus native fieldset
18:49:24 <Adam_Page> q?
18:49:29 <jamesn> q+
18:50:12 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: I see, you wanted to introduce the idea of “required accessibility children”
18:50:26 <jcraig> q+
18:50:31 <jcraig> ack jamesn
18:51:24 <Adam_Page> jamesn: I’m not sure I understand the content scenario differences for empty/asynchronously loaded parents
18:52:20 <Adam_Page> giacomo-petri: if you declare a table, then you need — at a minimum — table headers. But you don’t necessarily need rows immediately, because those can be added later; the empty table structure is still valid
18:53:24 <Adam_Page> Adam_Page: q+
18:54:23 <pkra> q+
18:54:36 <spectranaut_> ack jcraig
18:55:15 <jamesn> q+
18:55:24 <Adam_Page> jcraig: I recall a few years ago required owned elements
18:55:24 <Adam_Page> ... with aria-busy
18:55:24 <Adam_Page> ... an empty list
18:55:43 <jamesn> ack me
18:55:45 <Adam_Page> jamesn: we removed “required own elements” entirely and it morphed into allowed children
18:57:02 <spectranaut_> ack pkra
18:57:23 <Adam_Page> pkra: I also fall on the “be more permissive” side of things
18:57:49 <Adam_Page> ... reminds me of convos we’ve had about things in the spec being more WCAG concerns, but ARIA shouldn’t be the ones trying to enforce
18:58:33 <pkra> no disagreement there :D
18:58:43 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: thanks for your thorough investigation, giacomo-petri
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18:59:57 <Adam_Page> zakim, end meeting
18:59:57 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been jcraig, giacomo-petri, filippo-zorzi, Rahim, katez, markrogers, Francis_Storr, pkra, dgrogan, Adam_Page, Stefan, Priti
18:59:58 <spectranaut_> RESOLVE: We will not change the spec and allow for  Required Accessibility Parent Roles to have no children.
19:00:01 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
19:00:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/01/08-aria-minutes.html Zakim
19:00:09 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Adam_Page; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
19:00:09 <Adam_Page> rrsagent, make minutes
19:00:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2026/01/08-aria-minutes.html Adam_Page
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