16:00:27 RRSAgent has joined #tt 16:00:31 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/12/18-tt-irc 16:00:31 RRSAgent, make logs Public 16:00:32 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 16:00:37 scribe: nigel 16:00:41 Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/324 16:00:45 Present+ Nigel 16:00:53 Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/12/04-tt-minutes.html 16:01:44 Present+ Pierre 16:01:51 Chair: Nigel 16:02:40 Present+ Cyril 16:03:25 Present+ Andreas 16:04:18 Topic: This meeting 16:04:23 atai has joined #tt 16:04:28 Nigel: Thanks all for joining the last TTWG meeting of 2025 16:04:44 .. and in case I don't have time later, also thank you for the work you 16:04:51 .. have all put in all this year. 16:04:58 .. Agenda for today: 16:05:00 .. DAPT 16:05:05 .. DAPT and IMSC compatibility 16:05:08 IMSC 1.3 16:05:18 s/IMSC 1.3/.. IMSC 1.3 16:05:36 .. AOB about group membership news 16:05:46 .. and that's it for today. 16:05:55 .. Any other business or points to make sure we cover? 16:06:47 no other business 16:06:48 Topic: DAPT 16:06:48 Subtopic: CRS Publication 16:06:48 Nigel: We published a new CRS today! 16:07:09 .. DAPT CRS 18 December 2025 -> https://www.w3.org/TR/2025/CR-dapt-20251218/ 16:07:51 .. "This Candidate Recommendation is not expected to advance to Recommendation any earlier than 15 January 2026." 16:08:04 .. Thank you all for working on that. 16:08:34 pal has joined #tt 16:08:34 Present+ Atsushi 16:09:58 Subtopic: DAPT issues labelled for the agenda 16:10:20 Nigel: I just closed w3c/dapt#307 with a comment that the CRS has been published. 16:10:53 Subtopic: MAY contain zero or one ... objects should be MUST w3c/dapt#324 16:11:00 github: https://github.com/w3c/dapt/issues/324 16:11:09 Nigel: We discussed this last time, 2 views expressed. 16:12:15 .. I don't mind either way, but would be good to get Cyril's view. 16:12:36 Cyril: It says MAY contain zero or one? 16:12:55 .. It's weird to put a normative requirement with a MAY. 16:13:03 .. You could have 2, right? 16:13:11 Nigel: It's sort of unclear, yes. 16:13:28 Andreas: As written, if something is not permitted explicitly then my understand is it is not allowed. 16:13:44 .. So you cannot have 2 things. Otherwise you'd be allowed to put anything in because we never say 16:13:50 .. that ... 16:14:07 Cyril: You're saying it's automatic that 1 is the limit because it's constrained elsewhere? 16:14:17 .. And the sentence could be removed without harming the spec? 16:14:34 Andreas: No you need to say you are allowed to put one object in, but you cannot put more than 1 in, 16:14:51 .. and also you cannot put another one in. The text with MAY is saying you can. 16:15:11 Cyril: Either MAY put 1 so 0 is an optional possibility, or use MUST with 0 and 1. 16:15:18 .. But using MAY with 0 or 1 is unusual I guess. 16:15:37 Andreas: For me I haven't found some similar requirement with an optional field where 0 or 1 is required. 16:15:56 .. For me it is just a typical multiplicity of 0..1 and would be fine. 16:16:09 Cyril: Happy to leave the text as is, the normative part is you can put 0 or 1. 16:16:12 Nigel: Yes. 16:16:40 .. If we did change it to MUST I would class that as an editorial change. 16:16:55 .. Close with no change? 16:16:58 Cyril: Good with me 16:17:00 Andreas: OK 16:17:04 SUMMARY: Close with no change 16:17:48 Topic: DAPT and IMSC compatibility (editorial) 16:18:11 Subtopic: Add section about IMSC compatibility w3c/dapt#333 16:18:18 github: https://github.com/w3c/dapt/pull/333 16:20:14 Pierre: Nigel and I discussed this in a chat. 16:20:28 .. Because IMSC prohibits use of features that are not supported, 16:20:42 .. it wouldn't support DAPT features like audio. 16:20:55 .. But that doesn't mean that it is impossible to build a player that would play both. 16:21:31 Cyril: The subset of DAPT documents that do not contain any audio could be IMSC compatible, right? 16:21:35 Nigel: Yes that's right 16:21:55 .. My thinking is that this is not a problem. 16:22:13 .. The analogy I draw is with images and text - we don't provide a mechanism in IMSC Text to 16:22:24 .. include images. They're another representation of the text, potentially. 16:22:27 .. And so is audio. 16:24:06 Nigel: In the pull request (and for IMSC too) I included a section on signaling, 16:24:34 .. and an informative appendix on compatibility with other TTML based specifications 16:24:49 .. and within that, one example, which is IMSC Text. 16:26:53 .. [summarises the changes in the pull request] 16:28:45 .. The equivalent IMSC pull request is w3c/imsc#625, again, editorial. 16:28:49 .. Any thoughts about this. 16:31:48 Cyril: You're looking for review? 16:32:05 Nigel: Yes, the IMSC pull request was opened 2 weeks ago, the DAPT one a few days later. 16:32:13 .. I need reviews before I can merge. 16:32:18 .. These are editorial changes. 16:32:47 SUMMARY: Group to review 16:33:07 Subtopic: Add DAPT conformance signaling w3c/imsc#625 16:33:14 github: https://github.com/w3c/imsc/pull/625 16:33:34 Discussed in the context of w3c/dapt#333 16:33:37 SUMMARY: Group to review 16:34:00 Topic: IMSC 1.3 16:34:08 Subtopic: CRS publication 16:34:50 Nigel: We published the CRS today 16:35:21 IMSC 1.3 CRS Snapshot 18 December 2025 -> https://www.w3.org/TR/2025/CR-ttml-imsc1.3-20251218/ 16:35:34 Nigel: Thank you again all for your work on this. 16:35:49 .. "This Candidate Recommendation is not expected to advance to Recommendation any earlier than 15 January 2026. " 16:36:17 Atsushi: Sorry for the delay in this publication 16:36:21 present+ Gary 16:36:41 Atsushi: I need to update the formulation for streamlined publication so I will try to submit 16:36:44 .. a PR for that tomorrow. 16:37:14 .. The configuration needs to match the current status. 16:37:55 Pierre: In the spec or in the repo? 16:37:59 Atsushi: In the repo 16:38:04 Pierre: Thanks, I won't touch that. 16:38:18 Atsushi: I also need to check the configuration in the spec itself so I will do that. 16:38:30 Pierre: I was just about to modify the spec so you'll do that? 16:38:37 Atsushi: Just the metadata. 16:38:47 Pierre: So you'll change the spec to match the published CR? 16:38:51 Atsushi: Yes 16:38:59 Pierre: OK thanks I won't touch it then. 16:39:20 Atsushi: I also need to work on metadata [scribe missed] so let me work on that shortly. 16:39:22 Pierre: OK 16:40:13 Topic: Issues and pull requests for discussion 16:40:25 Nigel: No issues or pull requests are labelled as Agenda, that we haven't already discussed. 16:40:46 Pierre: There are a couple of issues I will open pull requests for. 16:41:19 issues labelled IMSC 1.3 -> https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues?q=is%3Aissue%20state%3Aopen%20label%3Aimsc1.3 16:41:34 Pierre: We should step through them and check the status, if we still want to do them, then I'll work on them. 16:41:43 Nigel: I see 7 16:42:09 Pierre: Compatibility with DAPT, you assigned yourself Nigel. Still want to work on it? 16:42:13 Nigel: There's a pull request open. 16:42:33 Pierre: ARIB liaison. It's a long standing issue. Do we know when we will hear back from ARIB on this, 16:42:39 .. recall IVS? 16:43:07 Nigel: In our joint call with APA and MEIG Ohnata-san said he would send something but I haven't received 16:43:12 .. anything yet as far as I know. 16:43:30 .. Atsushi, have you? 16:44:13 Atsushi: I had some chat with him yesterday offline during Japanese member meeting, 16:44:33 .. but for ISO10646 character class there is some need for clarification within the ISO side, 16:44:50 .. so there was a call for a comment within Japanese ISO colleagues, so they may reply to our clarification 16:45:09 .. questions shortly, for which ids should be included in the Japanese character class. 16:45:21 Pierre: The timing is important - do we have an estimate of "shortly"? 16:45:26 Atsushi: It should be this month. 16:45:43 Pierre: OK, then my recommendation is to schedule this for the Rec publication, and if we have not 16:45:52 .. received anything within the next month we should move on. 16:45:57 Nigel: What does "move on" mean? 16:46:35 Atsushi: It's something to fix in ISO. 16:46:43 Pierre: I'm talking about the definition of IVS 16:46:48 Atsushi: That will be answered shortly. 16:47:02 Pierre: My definition of "move on" is remove it if we are not certain we are doing the right thing, 16:47:12 .. and we can add the Japanese character set later on when we're more certain. 16:47:26 Nigel: That would be a big shame, but I understand your logic. 16:47:37 Pierre: I know, I hate it, and I don't know how to make it go faster. 16:47:53 .. We could also just have a pointer to ARIB directly, since it is publicly available. 16:48:06 .. It is not ideal, but at least helps the reader find some information, as a fallback. 16:48:24 .. Ideally we will receive clear feedback within the next month and this will not be an issue. 16:48:31 .. Does that make sense to you Nigel, and Gary? 16:48:45 Nigel: It does to me. I also don't like it but can't think of a better way. 16:49:05 Gary: Yeah I don't know of anything better. 16:49:10 Pierre: A month seems reasonable. 16:49:13 Nigel: Yes 16:49:38 Pierre: Next is 612, which I'll fix. 16:49:59 .. Next, 605, I don't know what the implications are on the tooling. 16:50:13 Nigel: I would say it's not massively important, it's nice to have 16:50:27 Pierre: On June 22 Atsushi pointed out there's some implication because the name of the file 16:50:42 .. is used in the URL of the ED so there would need to be a redirect so that old documents point to the new 16:50:52 .. location, so some infrastructure work. 16:50:59 Nigel: I'm asking myself if it is worth the trouble. 16:51:07 Pierre: My answer is No! 16:51:24 .. I think we should just remove it from 1.3 and not agonise on it. 16:51:29 .. [removes it] 16:51:45 .. Next is 604, order subsections alphabetically 16:52:01 .. There's a long clause called Additional Provision, and the sections are ordered historically. 16:52:14 Nigel: Will it break links? I don't think so. 16:52:29 Pierre: I think you're correct. Maybe not all of them even have links. 16:52:39 .. That could be an opportunity to make sure they all do. 16:52:44 .. I'm game, it's ugly as it is. 16:52:52 Nigel: So proceed with that one? 16:52:57 Pierre: I will do that. 16:53:04 Nigel: thank you 16:53:19 Pierre: Next is 553, in the introduction. Nigel had taken that on. 16:53:39 Nigel: I would still like to do that, but I won't get to it until January, so it will be quite tight. 16:53:53 Pierre: Again this is optional, if you haven't had time we can decide not to do it. 16:54:54 .. The next one is 524, semantic layers. That one I think we had decided ... 16:55:10 Nigel: For that one, I think if we merge the DAPT compatibility pull request we can point to the 16:55:26 .. availability of DAPT metadata as a way to convey additional semantic information through the 16:55:43 .. authoring process, and potentially also use that in a suitable player during presentation. 16:55:54 .. However there would be no normative requirement on players to do so. 16:56:26 Pierre: The original comment was to specify required behaviour 16:56:30 Nigel: Not sure I read it that way 16:56:46 Pierre: That means the player has an expected behaviour to make a decision based on metadata 16:57:35 Nigel: I feel like a player that uses DAPT metadata to make additional presentation decisions is 16:57:42 .. still available as a progressive enhancement. 16:57:59 Pierre: Then it's outside the scope of IMSC, I don't know how you'd write that in the spec. 16:58:05 Nigel: Two things. 16:58:19 .. First, there's some informative text in the pull request that can partially answer this. 16:58:42 .. Second, I think we could point to that change, assuming we make it, in this issue #524, and suggest 16:58:51 .. to APA WG that it fulfils their request. 16:59:18 .. My message would be that we have provided the tools and now it's up to the market to decide 16:59:25 .. to adopt it before we standardise it. 16:59:41 Pierre: So we have come up with tools and if there's a desire to use them we'll do it in a future version. 16:59:53 Nigel: That was all of them 17:00:08 Pierre: But there's one missing about the superscript accessibility to match the a11y tracker issue. 17:00:41 .. It's more general than superscript and subscript accessibility, it's that when you are rendering 17:00:56 .. an IMSC document you want to make it accessible, and for mapping fontVariant specifically there are 17:01:07 .. some accessibility concerns. 17:01:16 .. I'll create a new issue. 17:01:33 .. I'll propose a pull request to match. 17:01:37 Nigel: Fantastic, thank you 17:01:46 Topic: AOB - group membership news 17:02:30 Nigel: My understanding is Movielabs plans to leave W3C so Pierre will be ejected from the TTWG! 17:02:50 .. I hope we can invite him back as an IE to help shepherd through publication of IMSC 1.3 as a Rec, 17:02:53 .. and maybe longer too. 17:16:23 rrsagent, make minutes 17:16:24 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/12/18-tt-minutes.html nigel 17:19:13 Nigel: We're officially out of time but if you are able to stay on, I prepared a brief section looking back 17:19:24 .. at Pierre's time at W3C (so far!). 17:19:51 .. The first email I could find from Pierre was from 2012, sending Regrets! 17:20:07 -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2012Aug/0023.html email from 22nd August 2012 17:20:27 Nigel: Searching, Psince then Pierre has sent 778 emails to W3C mailing lists, an average of about 5 per month, and not all of them were Regrets! 17:20:34 s/Psince/since 17:21:04 .. Though mysteriously, on 1 Nov 2012 Pierre noted that he wasn’t present at the 2012-11-01 TTWG meeting 17:21:16 .. because he was at TPAC! Suggests that TTWG didn't have a meeting at TPAC that year. 17:21:33 .. What was the context at the time? 17:21:52 .. In December 2012 Pierre set up the Timed Text Task Force under the Web and TV (interest?) group, which, 17:22:09 .. according to the wiki page, was initially focused on: 17:22:21 .. "Develop recommendations to facilitate the use of TTML and WebVTT content on the Web, including interoperability with other timed text formats." 17:22:40 -> https://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/Tt Timed Text Task Force wiki page 17:23:14 Nigel: Not meaning to throw shade at Pierre, this problem still exists, and it's really hard to resolve. 17:23:43 .. Then we had the member submission of CFF-TT published 7th June 2013, 17:23:51 .. First public working draft of IMSC 1st May 2014 17:24:11 -> IMSC 1 History https://www.w3.org/standards/history/ttml-imsc1/ 17:24:31 .. First Rec of IMSC 1 was published on 21 April 2016 17:24:59 .. Since then 4 more versions of IMSC, 3 at Rec, and 1.3 on the way. 17:25:20 .. And Pierre also helped as Editor of TTML1, first listed as Editor on TTML1 3rd Ed CR on 24 April 2018 17:25:33 .. Really there’s too much history and hard work here to go into in any detail at all, but I want to thank Pierre for all of it, 17:25:42 .. I’ve certainly appreciated all his input during the time I’ve been working in this area. It’s not always been straightforward! 17:25:57 Pierre: Thanks Nigel. 17:25:58 .. I want to thank Movielabs for the support all these years. 17:26:08 .. The work on IMSC and TTML, and also MSE and EME would not be what they are today without the support of Movielabs. 17:26:17 .. In general it’s been a great experience. 17:26:25 .. We want to be careful, I might be back in a month! 17:26:36 .. t’s a great moment to note the support and effort that Movielabs has put in over the years in TTWG and elsewhere in W3C. 17:26:57 s/t's a/It's a 17:27:08 .. I’m not disappearing, the goal is to get IMSC 1.3 to Rec. 17:27:17 .. I plan to help with that, and you know where to reach me. 17:27:26 .. I will remain a member of the mailing list anyway. 17:27:40 Andreas: Just to add I fully support what Nigel said and you should take every opportunity to thank you for this important work. 17:27:47 .. It’s really incredible what you and Movielabs have done. Hope you are able to rejoin as an IE. 17:28:03 Pierre: Thank you Andreas. Anyway we talk every month or week! 17:28:07 Topic: Meeting close 17:28:35 Pierre: Wishing you all a good holiday. 17:28:56 Nigel: Yes, that's what comes at the end of this meeting! 17:29:11 .. Have a good break everyone who gets one, thank you again for all your 17:29:27 .. work in 2025, let's do more in 2026. 17:29:35 .. [adjourns meeting] 17:30:03 Next meeting is 15th January 17:30:06 rrsagent, make minutes 17:30:08 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/12/18-tt-minutes.html nigel 17:34:20 s/IIt's/It's 17:37:02 s/.. First Rec of IMSC 1/Nigel: First Rec of IMSC 1 17:37:49 s/.. t's a/.. It's a 17:37:52 rrsagent, make minutes 17:37:53 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/12/18-tt-minutes.html nigel 17:38:33 s/t’s a great moment/It’s a great moment 17:38:42 s|s/.. t's a/.. It's a|| 17:38:44 rrsagent, make minutes 17:38:45 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/12/18-tt-minutes.html nigel 17:39:42 s/||/X 17:40:03 s/s|s/ss 17:40:14 rrsagent, make minutes 17:40:16 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/12/18-tt-minutes.html nigel 17:42:26 scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 17:42:31 zakim, end meeting 17:42:31 As of this point the attendees have been Nigel, Pierre, Cyril, Andreas, Atsushi, Gary 17:42:33 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 17:42:34 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/12/18-tt-minutes.html Zakim 17:42:40 I am happy to have been of service, nigel; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 17:42:41 Zakim has left #tt 17:43:01 rrsagent, excuse us 17:43:01 I see no action items