13:03:24 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pmwg
13:03:28 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/12/18-pmwg-irc
13:03:28 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:03:29 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group
13:03:37 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Details 2025-12-18: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2025Dec/0021.html
13:03:38 <ivan> Chair: wendy
13:03:38 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group Telco
13:03:38 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2025Dec/0021.html
13:03:39 <ivan> regrets+ gpellegrino, Avneeshsingh
13:54:24 <George> George has joined #pmwg
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13:59:41 <toshiakikoike> present+
14:00:07 <shiestyle> present+
14:00:23 <MasakazuKitahara> present+
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14:00:32 <wendyreid> present+
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14:00:38 <SueNeu> present+
14:00:46 <kimberg> present+
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14:01:42 <duga> present+
14:02:10 <DaleRogers> present+
14:03:00 <shiestyle> zakim, start the meeting
14:03:00 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:03:02 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group
14:03:05 <GeorgeK> present+
14:03:07 <mgarrish> present+
14:03:24 <SueNeu> scribe: SeuNeu
14:03:38 <shiestyle> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:03:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/12/18-pmwg-minutes.html shiestyle
14:03:53 <ivan> present+ Dale
14:04:04 <rdeltour> rdeltour has joined #pmwg
14:04:10 <rdeltour> present+
14:04:23 <ivan> present+ wendyreid, ivan, shiestyle , MasakazuKitahara
14:04:31 <wendyreid> Topic: align-x-center - https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2847
14:04:36 <ivan> present+ toshiakikoike , gautierchomel ,
14:04:41 <duga> q+
14:04:54 <wendyreid> ack duga
14:04:54 <ivan> present+ duga
14:05:04 <SueNeu> wendyreid: we want to talk about whether this is only for fixed layout
14:05:21 <mgarrish> q+
14:05:25 <SueNeu> duga: literally everyone wants to obsolete this, can we take a resolution?
14:05:27 <wendyreid> ack mgarrish
14:05:40 <Hadrien> Hadrien has joined #pmwg
14:05:47 <Hadrien> present+
14:05:47 <SueNeu> mgarrish: I’ve heard two options, deprecating it or outdate it?
14:05:55 <shiestyle> q+
14:05:55 <ivan> present+ manucharian
14:06:00 <wendyreid> ack shiestyle
14:06:24 <LaurentLM> LaurentLM has joined #pmwg
14:06:24 <SueNeu> shiestyle: I think property is regressive from Japan many years ago
14:06:38 <SueNeu> only a few reading systems support it, publishers rarely use it
14:06:43 <ivan> q+
14:06:44 <LaurentLM> present+
14:06:46 <wendyreid> ack ivan
14:06:55 <SueNeu> …I propose to move to either status
14:07:13 <CharlesL1> CharlesL1 has joined #pmwg
14:07:17 <SueNeu> ivan: the question is will any book that has this property be flagged with an error?
14:07:20 <CharlesL1> present+
14:07:42 <SueNeu> shiestyle: I think this feature is rarely used, so it is OK to throw an error
14:07:46 <SueNeu> …deprecated is fine
14:07:56 <ivan> present+ elizabeth
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14:08:30 <SueNeu> toshiakikoike, tanslated by shiestyle to English from Japanese
14:08:46 <SueNeu> …this property was proposed by ishi-san many years ago
14:09:03 <SueNeu> …it is not a problem if this is deprecated
14:09:41 <SueNeu> wendyreid: I wonder if this will result in a flood of errors for legacy books
14:09:48 <SueNeu> ivan: it seems this is not a problem
14:10:20 <wendyreid> PROPOSED: Deprecate 'align-x-center' in EPUB 3.4.
14:10:21 <ivan> +1
14:10:23 <toshiakikoike> +1
14:10:23 <duga> +1
14:10:24 <SueNeu> +1
14:10:24 <shiestyle> +1
14:10:24 <mgarrish> +1
14:10:25 <MasakazuKitahara> +1
14:10:25 <wendyreid> +1
14:10:26 <rdeltour> +1
14:10:27 <GeorgeK> +1
14:10:29 <LaurentLM> +1
14:10:29 <CharlesL1> +1
14:10:30 <DaleRogers> +1
14:10:30 <Hadrien> +1
14:10:35 <gautierchomel> +1
14:10:40 <wendyreid> RESOLVED: Deprecate 'align-x-center' in EPUB 3.4.
14:11:01 <ivan> topic: introductionn of grigoriy
14:12:02 <SueNeu> wendyreid: I would like to intvite [grigoriy] to introduce himself
14:12:04 <ivan> q+
14:12:20 <ivan> q-
14:12:32 <ivan> s/intvine//
14:12:59 <gman> gman has joined #pmwg
14:13:19 <ivan> s/would like to/would like to invite/
14:13:49 <kimberg> that's me!
14:14:11 <SueNeu> gman: I was invited by Gautier as a representative of French publishing
14:14:21 <ivan> present+ kimberg
14:14:28 <SueNeu> …my specialty is educational texts and converting them to Ebooks
14:14:42 <wendyreid> Topic: Reorganized layout section - https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/2844
14:15:19 <SueNeu> ivan: there are over 100 comments
14:15:55 <SueNeu> mgarrish: We were looking at the initial start page, what should happen when there is no spread placement on the first spine item
14:16:32 <SueNeu> …we decided we should display it centered in the viewscreen or slotting the page on its own however that best works
14:16:51 <SueNeu> …we have a note to make an equivalent in rolled layouts
14:17:24 <SueNeu> Hadrien: There was a discussion also about the first resource when there isn’t spread information
14:17:43 <SueNeu> …there was a discussion with Roman about other things
14:18:12 <SueNeu> mgarrish: The issue with Roman was whether this should be a MUST
14:18:25 <SueNeu> …this removes a normative requirement that was untestable
14:18:25 <ivan> q+
14:18:46 <duga> q+
14:18:49 <SueNeu> …I think this works in this case because this is an authoring suggestion
14:19:10 <wendyreid> ack ivan
14:19:18 <SueNeu> …it would be good to move forward since we have a lot of issues in the PR
14:19:31 <SueNeu> ivan: it should be merged as soon as possible
14:19:42 <gman> Hadrien my nickname is the first letter of my first name and 3 first letters of my last name, which makes a half-life reference, how blessed can one be :)
14:20:15 <SueNeu> …we said we would add a not whereby it is possible to make this in an FXL
14:20:36 <SueNeu> mgarrish: it is in the discussion about fixed-layout documents
14:20:59 <SueNeu> …and in the icb section it says if you are using these, then the reading system will pick it up
14:21:43 <wendyreid> ack duga
14:21:45 <shiestyle> q+
14:21:46 <SueNeu> ivan: this should be merged as soon as possible followed by a revamping of the test cases in the new year
14:22:07 <SueNeu> duga: we should submit this asap, there are 100 comments on the PR
14:22:20 <SueNeu> …many of them have nothing to do with reorganization
14:22:49 <SueNeu> …I don’t think this is a good workflow, we are doing real, unrelated editing in this PR
14:23:11 <SueNeu> …if you see something in a PR that isn’t related to the PR, they should open a separate issue
14:23:32 <SueNeu> …and I suggest mgarrish pushback on this
14:24:13 <SueNeu> …obviously somethings would be easier to do at the same time,
14:24:37 <SueNeu> …but we’ve made so many normative changes in this PR I don’t think I’ve responded to them all
14:24:55 <SueNeu> …but mgarrish should ask others to open the PR, not be responsible for that himself
14:25:07 <SueNeu> mgarrish: I agree this one got out of control
14:25:39 <SueNeu> wendyreid: noted for the future, don’t make mgarrish do so many things in one PR
14:25:47 <wendyreid> ack shiestyle
14:26:00 <SueNeu> …I think we are all agreed to merge this as soon as possilbe
14:26:08 <wendyreid> PROPOSED: Merge PR #2844
14:26:10 <mgarrish> +1
14:26:12 <wendyreid> +1
14:26:13 <ivan> +1
14:26:13 <rdeltour> +1
14:26:14 <toshiakikoike> +1
14:26:14 <shiestyle> +1
14:26:15 <Hadrien> +1
14:26:17 <CharlesL1> +1
14:26:17 <gautierchomel> +1
14:26:17 <MasakazuKitahara> +1
14:26:21 <SueNeu> shiestyle: thank you mgarrish for including a note for Japanese rolled comics
14:26:23 <SueNeu> +1
14:26:43 <wendyreid> RESOLVED: Merge PR #2844
14:26:51 <duga> +1
14:27:07 <ivan> q+
14:27:11 <SueNeu> wendy: the big task now will be the tests that need to be edited and renamed
14:27:15 <wendyreid> ack ivan
14:27:34 <SueNeu> s/wendy/wendyreid
14:27:47 <Hadrien> q+
14:27:51 <SueNeu> ivan: I have created a test file with images in the spine
14:27:56 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
14:28:20 <SueNeu> Hadrien: thank you ivan for the example of images in the spine, I will create a few more
14:28:45 <SueNeu> …these will be used by engineers in Thorium to test presentation
14:29:05 <SueNeu> …we expect implementation on IOS and Readium Mobile
14:29:28 <wendyreid> Topic: AOB
14:29:28 <ivan> q+
14:29:32 <wendyreid> ack ivan
14:30:02 <SueNeu> ivan: I was looking at the charter, and the only outstanding standardization issue is annotations
14:30:03 <shiestyle> s/by ishi-san/by Koike-san and Ishii-san/
14:30:26 <SueNeu> …we know that is going on. I have the impression that more small issues are going on
14:30:38 <Hadrien> q+
14:30:43 <SueNeu> …so the next step would be to go to the candidate step
14:30:53 <SueNeu> …that would begin the horizontal reiveiws.
14:31:14 <SueNeu> …we should organize ourselves to do these over the winter
14:31:20 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
14:31:27 <SueNeu> …we need some volunteers to take parts of the spec to the relevant group
14:31:30 <ivan> s/reiveiws/reviews/
14:31:49 <SueNeu> Hadrien: on the comics side we have talked about thngs like group notes
14:32:03 <SueNeu> …I still have an issue with the structural semantics
14:32:12 <ivan> q+
14:32:26 <SueNeu> …I don’t think these would block going forward
14:32:35 <kimberg> kimberg has joined #pmwg
14:32:44 <wendyreid> ack ivan
14:33:08 <SueNeu> ivan: I was focusing on the normative parts
14:33:20 <SueNeu> …the main question is who will do the horizontal reviews?
14:34:17 <gman> gman has joined #pmwg
14:34:19 <SueNeu> wendyreid: we have to do horizontal reviews for security, privacy, internationalization
14:34:33 <SueNeu> ivan: there are forms we need to fill out
14:34:53 <SueNeu> …most of the time these reviews don’t result in changes
14:34:55 <wendyreid> s/internationalization/internationalization, accessibility, TAG
14:35:08 <SueNeu> …it would be worth telling people what changes were made
14:35:16 <SueNeu> …maybe with a small wiki
14:35:30 <SueNeu> …we didn’t do an enormous amount of normative changes
14:35:42 <SueNeu> …we deprecated a few things
14:36:03 <SueNeu> …we could mention looking into html and deciding not to make that change
14:36:18 <SueNeu> wendyreid: we will need to add to the change log
14:36:37 <SueNeu> ivan: perhaps we should filter it out, some of those changes are editorial
14:36:59 <SueNeu> mgarrish: we could filter the change log, and try to organize them by security, privacy, etc
14:37:13 <DaleRogers> q+
14:37:20 <SueNeu> ivan: my guess is that we didn’t make may changes that require review
14:37:35 <wendyreid> ack DaleRogers
14:37:40 <SueNeu> ivan: maybe web assembly will bring up security issue
14:37:49 <SueNeu> Dale
14:38:08 <SueNeu> DaleRodgers: is there a resource for learning more about horizontal reviews?
14:38:14 <wendyreid> https://www.w3.org/guide/documentreview/#how-to-get-horizontal-review
14:38:42 <CharlesL1> q+
14:38:58 <SueNeu> mgarrish: basically there are experts within W3C who will look at what you’ve done to see if there are issues that come up
14:39:15 <SueNeu> …adding more checks and balances
14:39:53 <SueNeu> wendyreid: they are experts in security or privacy, not necessarily in EPUB
14:40:03 <SueNeu> …the last time we did this we learned a lot
14:40:06 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL1
14:40:10 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
14:40:33 <SueNeu> CharlesL1: in accessibility we added in the date of the review
14:41:05 <SueNeu> wendyreid: I think this should be pretty straightforward since we’ve done this recently
14:41:17 <SueNeu> …think about how we will do this over the holidays
14:41:34 <DaleRogers> Sue: Last name is spelled Rogers. So the minutes pick it up.
14:42:00 <SueNeu> …we are just looking for someone to own the process, you don’t have be an expert in the particular specialty
14:42:10 <GeorgeK> Q+
14:42:30 <duga>   q+
14:42:35 <SueNeu> s/DaleRodgers/DaleRogers
14:42:45 <wendyreid> ack GeorgeK
14:42:56 <CharlesL1> S/DaleRodgers/DaleRogers
14:43:23 <SueNeu> GeorgeK1: I imagine the accessibility task force will manage the accessibility review
14:43:30 <wendyreid> ack ack duga
14:43:33 <wendyreid> ack duga
14:43:37 <ivan> q+
14:43:43 <SueNeu> duga: how does the new annotation spec figure into this?
14:43:58 <SueNeu> …it might have significant safety and privacy issues
14:44:05 <wendyreid> ack ivan
14:44:19 <SueNeu> ivan: we agreed that we would move to a recommendation for annotation specs
14:44:34 <SueNeu> …we will eventually need to have that reviewed as welll
14:44:48 <SueNeu> …for now let’s set that aside. But that is different than the others
14:45:02 <SueNeu> …as soon as there is a public working draft, we should reach out to the others
14:45:18 <SueNeu> …it has to happen separately from the authoring spec and reading system
14:45:41 <LaurentLM> q+
14:45:41 <SueNeu> …the annotations will a big horizontal review
14:46:10 <SueNeu> duga: if someone volunteers for something, are they volunteering for the easy stuff or the annotations?
14:46:19 <wendyreid> ack LaurentLM
14:47:04 <SueNeu> LaurentLM: ivan, what happens when we talk about internationalization, etc when we talk about annotations?
14:47:30 <SueNeu> ivan: in 3.3, we focused on things that are only EPUB specific
14:48:10 <SueNeu> wendyreid: are there any other topics to bring up before we wrap up for the year?
14:48:28 <SueNeu> …our next meeting is January 8. I hope everyone has a lovely holiday season.
14:48:35 <SueNeu> …see you in the new year
14:49:01 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:49:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/12/18-pmwg-minutes.html ivan
14:49:13 <CharlesL1> CharlesL1 has left #pmwg
16:00:37 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
16:00:37 <RRSAgent> I see no action items