14:55:37 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #i18n
14:55:41 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/12/18-i18n-irc
14:55:53 <addison> Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
14:56:03 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/9449974b-72da-42a3-988a-1ccae4c25616/20251218T150000/
14:56:03 <agendabot> clear agenda
14:56:03 <agendabot> agenda+ Agenda Review
14:56:03 <agendabot> agenda+ Action Items
14:56:05 <agendabot> agenda+ Info Share
14:56:07 <agendabot> agenda+ Review RADAR Review
14:56:09 <agendabot> agenda+ Pending Issue Review
14:56:12 <agendabot> agenda+ AOB?
14:56:23 <addison> agenda+ search engine crawling and indexing
14:56:35 <addison> agenda+ RDF 1.2 Concepts and Abstract Data Model
14:56:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/12/18-i18n-minutes.html addison
14:57:03 <addison> Chair: Addison Phillips, Joel Sahleen
14:57:32 <jsahleen> agenda?
14:58:43 <jsahleen> Thanks
14:59:56 <addison> present+ Addison, Murata, Joel
15:00:29 <addison> present+ Bert
15:01:10 <addison> present+ Richard
15:01:19 <Bert> scribe+
15:01:26 <addison> present+ Fuqiao
15:01:53 <jsahleen> Zakim, take up item 1
15:01:53 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Agenda Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:02:07 <addison> present+ Eemeli
15:02:39 <jsahleen> Zakim, take up item2
15:02:39 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:02:44 <addison> present+ Atsushi
15:02:54 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues
15:02:54 <jsahleen> #201
15:02:58 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/201 -> Action 201  make list of currently-non-REC deliverables for consideration of REC-track (on xfq) due 2025-12-18
15:03:06 <xfq> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/201#issuecomment-3644967445
15:03:07 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/201 -> Action 201  make list of currently-non-REC deliverables for consideration of REC-track (on xfq) due 2025-12-18
15:04:16 <Bert> xfq: There were several reactions. Make it an agenda item soon?
15:04:34 <Bert> ... We have entered charter refinement phase.
15:04:51 <Bert> addison: Next call is only in three weeks.
15:05:06 <Bert> ... How much time to review?
15:05:23 <addison> agenda+ consider non-REC deliverables for the charter
15:05:32 <Bert> xfq: One month from Dec 13, but also depends on horizontl reviews we get
15:06:05 <addison> close #200
15:06:07 <Bert> xfq: We can close #200
15:06:08 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/200 -> Action 200  produce a new charter draft (on xfq) due 2025-12-11
15:06:09 <gb> Closed -> issue #200 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/200
15:06:23 <Bert> jsahleen: OK, closed
15:06:28 <addison> reopen #197
15:06:30 <gb> Reopened -> issue #197 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/197 rename the repo and shortname and publish ruby accessibility document as a first draft note
15:07:19 <Bert> jsahleen: Do we need to discuss #196?
15:07:20 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/196 -> Action 196  remind @duerst to  create a list of gaps in URL standard (on aphillips, duerst) due 2025-11-17
15:07:32 <Bert> addison: Waiting for response from MArtin first
15:08:09 <Bert> addison: Next few actions belong together.
15:08:28 <Bert> eemeli: Didn't get a chance to discuss the actions.
15:08:46 <Bert> ... But would like to get a W3C review or comment on an item.
15:09:03 <Bert> addison: Can label an issue.
15:09:24 <Bert> ... But no automated link to their repo.
15:10:08 <Bert> eemeli: I will be traveling, but will try to advance, maybe not before Feb. Or discuss a bit today.
15:10:26 <addison> agenda+ Import text UTF-8 parsing
15:10:36 <jsahleen> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/187
15:10:37 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/187 -> Action 187  ping GOOG again for participation (on aphillips) due 2025-10-16
15:10:48 <Bert> addison: Working on #187
15:10:49 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/187 -> Action 187  ping GOOG again for participation (on aphillips) due 2025-10-16
15:11:21 <Bert> ... We should probably have a call with Bob and Mark
15:11:54 <Bert> ... Will email, but no discussion before the holidays.
15:12:47 <Bert> addison: remaining actions ongoing.
15:12:55 <jsahleen> agenda?
15:13:06 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 3
15:13:06 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Info Share -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:13:07 <jsahleen> Zakim, take up item3
15:13:08 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Info Share -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:13:27 <jsahleen> Zakim, take up item4
15:13:27 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Review RADAR Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:13:43 <xfq> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/91/views/1
15:13:49 <Bert> jsahleen: Nothing new came in.
15:13:53 <jsahleen> #283
15:13:53 <gb> Issue 283 not found
15:14:04 <addison> i18n-request#283
15:14:05 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/issues/283 -> Issue 283 SHACL 1.2 Core 2025-11-03 > 2025-01-15 (by nicholascar) [REVIEW REQUESTED] [SR] [LC]
15:14:23 <addison> i18n-request#288
15:14:24 <Bert> jsahleen: I'm 3/4 through this.
15:14:24 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/issues/288 -> Issue 288 SHACL 1.2 SPARQL 2025-12-01 > 2025-01-22 (by nicholascar) [REVIEW REQUESTED] [LC]
15:14:36 <Bert> ... Ditto for SHACL.
15:14:40 <addison> i18n-request#284
15:14:41 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/issues/284 -> Issue 284 rdf12-concepts 2025-11-21 > 2026-01-22 (by ktk) [REVIEW REQUESTED] [LC]
15:15:02 <Bert> ... Fuqiao finished 284.
15:15:11 <Bert> addison: That's in the agenda.
15:15:49 <Bert> xfq: Not done Semantics yet.
15:16:02 <Bert> Bert: Not done N-Triples yet
15:16:58 <Bert> addison: Unicode Charcter Repertoire Subsets can be moved to completed.
15:17:02 <addison> agenda?
15:17:03 <jsahleen> agenda?
15:17:19 <jsahleen> Zakim, take up item5
15:17:19 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Pending Issue Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:17:23 <xfq> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Apending
15:17:45 <jsahleen> i18n-activity/#2060
15:18:03 <jsahleen> i18n-activity#2060
15:18:03 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/2060 -> Issue 2060 Relationship with /TR/ruby (by w3cbot) [pending] [tracker] [s:html-ruby-extensions]
15:19:17 <Bert> jsahleen: Do we need to do anything?
15:19:29 <Bert> xfq: Record a group consensus?
15:19:54 <Bert> addison: We will control the document, so we should also agree on the shortname.
15:20:24 <Bert> xfq: It has a short name html-ruby, since it was published by HTML. We don't need to chnage it.
15:20:28 <jsahleen> i18n-activity#2059
15:20:29 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/2059 -> Issue 2059 Clarification on inline direction (by xfq) [pending] [s:rdf-concepts]
15:21:15 <xfq> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:21:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/12/18-i18n-minutes.html xfq
15:21:22 <addison> proposed: the html-ruby specification should be maintained separately from and not overwrite the TR/ruby spec
15:21:22 <r12a> +1
15:21:27 <addison> +1
15:21:34 <jsahleen> +1
15:21:35 <atsushi> +1
15:21:37 <xfq> s/html-ruby/html-ruby-extensions/
15:21:38 <Bert> <Bert> +1
15:21:42 <xfq> +1
15:22:06 <addison> eemeli: 0
15:22:25 <addison> RESOLVED: the html-ruby specification should be maintained separately from and not overwrite the TR/ruby spec
15:22:26 <xfq> html-ruby
15:22:32 <xfq> s/html-ruby//
15:22:44 <xfq> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:22:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/12/18-i18n-minutes.html xfq
15:22:59 <jsahleen> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/2059
15:23:00 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/2059 -> Issue 2059 Clarification on inline direction (by xfq) [pending] [s:rdf-concepts]
15:23:20 <xfq> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/2059
15:23:27 <xfq> https://www.w3.org/TR/rdf12-concepts/
15:23:42 <xfq> https://www.w3.org/TR/rdf12-concepts/#dfn-dir-lang-string
15:24:06 <xfq> rdf:dirLangString
15:24:11 <Bert> xfq: I reviewed RDF 1.2 Concepts. They introduced directional language tagged strings
15:25:03 <Bert> ... I didn't find how diretcion changes inside strings should work.
15:25:28 <Bert> addison: As it is just a string, presumably with Unicode.
15:26:11 <addison> https://www.w3.org/TR/rdf12-concepts/#section-Datatypes
15:26:26 <Bert> jsahleen: You, xfq, mean the spec should mention that?
15:26:37 <eemeli> q+
15:26:41 <addison> https://www.w3.org/TR/rdf12-concepts/#section-Graph-Literal
15:27:06 <Bert> eemeli: Is this like string-meta?
15:27:29 <xfq> ack eemeli
15:27:31 <Bert> addison: It's their response to string-meta, which says you should be able to set the base direction.
15:28:02 <Bert> r12a: string-meta is mostly about direction of a strong as a whole, not about inline.
15:28:41 <Bert> addison: I take it this RDF is about the wrapper, indeed.
15:28:47 <Bert> s/strong/string/
15:29:32 <Bert> eemeli: One option is to get Unicode to introduce a new directionality control to be used as the first charcter of a string to set the base direction.
15:29:49 <Bert> ... I don't remember what string-meta says.
15:30:23 <Bert> r12a: That option was not preferred. String-meta recommends meta-data outside the string.
15:31:27 <Bert> ... Fuqiao's comment on the RDF spec is about direction switching inside the string.
15:33:14 <Bert> eemeli: A first character of a string to define direction indeed puts the data inside the string, but seems a valid way. A character that explicitly applies to the whole string, not to the next character.
15:33:38 <jsahleen> q+
15:34:07 <Bert> r12a: If you use ‘first-strong’ heuristics, you effective get this behavior.
15:34:20 <addison> ack next
15:34:55 <Bert> jsahleen: What would you do if you have metadata and an initial direction character that conflicts.
15:35:08 <Bert> eemeli: Essentially as defined in HTML.
15:36:21 <Bert> addison: So back to Fuqiao's comment: Do we want RDF to include a comment about internal directionality inside strings? A note, pointing to one of our articles?
15:36:32 <Bert> eemeli: Is there such a not ei string-meta?
15:36:42 <addison> https://www.w3.org/TR/string-meta/#terminology
15:36:56 <Bert> ... In that case it seems good to have it here, too.
15:37:14 <Bert> addison: RDF is just defining a data type with initial direction.
15:37:27 <addison> https://www.w3.org/TR/rdf12-concepts/#section-text-direction
15:37:56 <Bert> r12a: Could say that it either needs markup or Unicode direction chars.
15:38:17 <addison> https://www.w3.org/International/articles/inline-bidi-markup/uba-basics
15:39:01 <Bert> addison: They should add a note to the text diretcion section pointing to the article ^^
15:39:14 <Bert> s/diretcion/direction/
15:39:28 <Bert> r12a: Maybe we can suggest text for them.
15:39:29 <addison> If you are unfamiliar with bidirectional or right-to-left text, there is a basic introduction here. This will give you a basic grasp of how the Unicode Bidirectional Algorithm works and the interplay between it and the block direction, which will stand you in good stead for reading this document.
15:39:55 <xfq> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:39:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/12/18-i18n-minutes.html xfq
15:40:03 <Bert> addison: Based on the text from the article.
15:40:53 <Bert> r12a: [Sharing screen]
15:42:11 <Bert> ... In 1.2 Terminology copy the para towards the end. And with added text about using either markup or Unicode layer characters,
15:43:05 <Bert> addison: I would want to link to @@
15:43:20 <addison> s/link to @@/link to uba-basics/
15:43:24 <xfq> https://www.w3.org/International/articlelist#direction
15:43:26 <Bert> xfq: I can propose some text.
15:43:59 <Bert> ... I was thinking of linking both to uba-basics and the articlke about markup vs unicode controls
15:44:13 <jsahleen> agenda?
15:44:17 <Bert> s/articlke/article
15:44:36 <Bert> xfq: and I will file the issue on RDF.
15:45:11 <Bert> Discussion about whether we need to make an Action or if xfq will do it anyway.
15:46:28 <jsahleen> Zakim, take up item7
15:46:28 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- search engine crawling and indexing -- taken up [from addison]
15:46:41 <jsahleen> Zakim, take up item9
15:46:41 <Zakim> agendum 9 -- consider non-REC deliverables for the charter -- taken up [from addison]
15:46:58 <addison> #201
15:46:58 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/201 -> Action 201  make list of currently-non-REC deliverables for consideration of REC-track (on xfq) due 2025-12-18
15:47:08 <xfq> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/201#issuecomment-3644967445
15:47:08 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/201 -> Action 201  make list of currently-non-REC deliverables for consideration of REC-track (on xfq) due 2025-12-18
15:48:08 <Bert> addison: xfq made a list of notes we published until today. They contain MUST and SHOULD language, although they are not normative, as Florian remarked.
15:48:41 <Bert> r12a: We intend to keep changing many of them, hence Notes.
15:49:04 <Bert> xfq: Question is if we can write tests for it.
15:50:06 <Bert> r12a: If we want to change the status, we probably need to discuss that with the other authors, e.g., Best Practices for XML Internationalization
15:50:47 <Bert> r12a: I think this doc is aimed at authors.
15:51:34 <Bert> ... On the other hand, WCAG is an example of a doc aimed at authors and it is Rec track…
15:52:27 <Bert> ... Do we have the resources to update this document? We already have a lot to do. Maybe for next charter?
15:52:41 <jsahleen> q+
15:53:21 <Bert> r12a: Might be useful to make string-meta a Rec.
15:53:29 <Bert> xfq: How do we test it?
15:53:59 <Bert> ... Test other specifcations?
15:54:01 <addison> ack next
15:54:32 <Bert> jsahleen: If any of the docs on the list do *not* move to Rec track, do we need to remove MUST and SHOULD?
15:54:43 <Bert> addison: No, no need.
15:55:44 <Bert> r12a: string matching (charmod-norm) is a good candicate for Rec track.
15:56:17 <Bert> addison: ltli, I would like it to be normative.
15:57:24 <Bert> ... But I think nobody worked on it since Felix and me most recently.
15:58:45 <Bert> xfq: We need to decide which are deliverables, also for patent reasons.
15:59:01 <xfq> s/deliverables/normative deliverables/
15:59:42 <Bert> addison: specdev is not in the list.
15:59:57 <Bert> r12a: That one is not Rec track.
16:02:18 <Bert> jsahleen: So we are considering charmod-norm, @@@ and ltli for Rec track. What about string-search?
16:02:39 <addison> s/@@@/string-meta/
16:03:58 <Bert> jsahleen: What about testing?
16:04:36 <Bert> r12a: We mostly develop advice, not tech, so mostly not Rec track.
16:05:03 <xfq> string-search and charmod-norm
16:05:34 <Bert> addison: Charmod fundamentals we split up according to specification or implementation
16:05:38 <addison> proposed: add string-meta and charmod-norm to the REC-track for the new charter of I18N
16:05:50 <xfq> s/string-search/string-meta
16:06:02 <r12a> +1
16:06:10 <jsahleen> +1
16:06:10 <addison> +1
16:06:48 <xfq> +1
16:06:48 <Bert> <Bert> +1
16:06:48 <jsahleen> Resolved: add string-meta and charmod-norm to the REC-track for the new charter of I18N
16:06:52 <xfq> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:06:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/12/18-i18n-minutes.html xfq
16:07:01 <jsahleen> RESOLVED: add string-meta and charmod-norm to the REC-track for the new charter of I18N
16:07:21 <jsahleen> agenda?
16:07:51 <Bert> jsahleen: Import text UTF-8 parsing  will be for January 8
16:07:51 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 7
16:07:51 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- search engine crawling and indexing -- taken up [from addison]
16:07:57 <jsahleen> Zakim, take up item7
16:07:57 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- search engine crawling and indexing -- taken up [from addison]
16:08:26 <Bert> xfq: This is about changing the article.
16:08:35 <xfq> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-drafts/pull/795
16:08:35 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-drafts/pull/795 -> Pull Request 795 Add information about search engine crawling and indexing (by xfq)
16:08:42 <Bert> ... Accept-Language headers and such.
16:08:57 <Bert> ... I saw addison's comment already.
16:09:17 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 6
16:09:17 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- AOB? -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:10:01 <addison> exuent omnes
16:10:13 <jsahleen> No Latin allowed
16:10:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/12/18-i18n-minutes.html addison
16:10:20 <addison> zakim, who is here?
16:10:20 <Zakim> Present: Addison, Murata, Joel, Bert, Richard, Fuqiao, Eemeli, Atsushi
16:10:20 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, addison, jsahleen, r12a, Bert, astearns, koji, jyasskin, alastairc, Rachael, cwilso, atsushi, florian, gb, agendabot, eemeli, csarven, Mek, ChrisL,
16:10:20 <Zakim> ... xfq
16:29:33 <addison> zakim, bye
16:29:33 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Addison, Murata, Joel, Bert, Richard, Fuqiao, Eemeli, Atsushi
16:29:33 <Zakim> Zakim has left #i18n