17:53:48 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:53:52 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/12/18-aria-irc
17:53:52 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:53:53 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA WG
17:54:12 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
17:54:12 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
17:54:12 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2784af88-4e09-430b-b8e2-8ba998096abc/20251218T130000/
17:54:12 <agendabot> clear agenda
17:54:12 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://github.com/search?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created:%3E=2025-12-11+repo:w3c/aria&type=Issues
17:54:13 <agendabot> agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y
17:54:16 <agendabot> agenda+ -> core aam roles known entries https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2682
17:54:18 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Add namefrom: heading. https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2650
17:54:21 <agendabot> agenda+ -> feat: aria-actions addition to the ARIA spec https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1805
17:54:24 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Expose implicit ARIA semantics (browser-defaults and ElementInternals) https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2663
17:54:27 <agendabot> agenda+ If time - -> aria-actions: handling focus when actions are synthetically triggered https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2691
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17:59:46 <Stefan> present+
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18:02:25 <Adam_Page> present+
18:02:28 <spectranaut_> agenda?
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18:02:33 <giacomo-petri> present+
18:02:43 <pkra> present+
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18:02:48 <pkra> scribe+
18:02:50 <Siri> Present+
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18:02:53 <pkra> zakim, next item
18:02:53 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New PR Triage https://github.com/search?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created:%3E=2025-12-11+repo:w3c/aria&type=Issues -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:02:57 <markrogers> present+
18:03:00 <jamesn> present+
18:03:06 <Jacques> present+
18:03:09 <Priti> present+
18:09:06 <scott> present+
18:09:13 <Daniel> present+
18:10:05 <pkra> spectranaut_: aria 2698 from sideshowbarker
18:10:10 <jamesn> agenda?
18:10:44 <pkra> scott: I can take this one.
18:10:52 <pkra> ... it came from a lot of fixes in validator.
18:11:13 <pkra> ... the linked issue needed some conversation
18:11:45 <pkra> ... I added myself as reviewer.
18:11:48 <pkra> spectranaut_: thanks.
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18:12:02 <pkra> pkra: I can review
18:12:12 <pkra> spectranaut_: next aria 2697 also from sideshowbarker
18:13:12 <pkra> ... I'll add myself
18:13:29 <pkra> zakim, next item
18:13:29 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:13:50 <pkra> spectranaut_: doesn't look like we have anything new.
18:14:07 <pkra> jcraig: I merged the PR from giacomo. Otherwise all good.
18:14:22 <jamesn> topic: core aam roles known entries https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2682 [from agendabot]
18:14:51 <jamesn> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2682
18:15:23 <pkra> giacomo-petri: related to the WPT, I had a question about UAs not following the suggestion on presentational children.
18:16:00 <pkra> jcraig: the PR I merged was on SVG. So nothing happened on that.
18:16:14 <pkra> spectranaut_: we'll agenda the other one for next year.
18:16:59 <pkra> spectranaut_: David Tseng has been adding the core-aam mappings for Android.
18:17:10 <pkra> ... this included frontmatter and a bit of TBD entries
18:17:39 <pkra> dtseng: over the past year there's been a renewed effort to enhance and extend the android AAPIs
18:18:15 <pkra> ... there is more work ahead. The initial round is coming to Android SDKs
18:18:28 <pkra> ... the PR adds the initial parts of this, in particular how Android tackles roles
18:18:56 <pkra> .. it's mostly mapped to existing Android widgets.
18:19:16 <pkra> ... we have mappings for some existing APIs which I'll try to add. Some more hopefully incoming.
18:19:29 <spectranaut_> https://deploy-preview-2682--wai-aria.netlify.app/core-aam/
18:19:53 <pkra> spectranaut_: thank you! FYI for everyone, the PR has a deploy link but the links need adjustments to reach the child specs
18:20:13 <pkra> ... the PR has some reviewers
18:20:42 <pkra> mattking: maybe the correct links could be added to the top card?
18:20:52 <pkra> Daniel: yes, I need to get to automate that.
18:21:00 <jarhar> the whatwg/html spec has this when you create a PR there, it automatically edits the PR description and adds links to the previews of the modified files
18:21:02 <pkra> spectranaut_: are there more reviewers?
18:21:28 <pkra> ... is there a particular kind of feedback you're hoping for, david?
18:22:13 <pkra> ... My assumption is that you're the experts and this documents the status quo and should be merged.
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18:23:10 <front-endian-jane> present+
18:23:23 <pkra> dtseng: review would help, using the experience of the ARIA group.
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18:23:32 <pkra> ... also on the API level.
18:23:41 <Matt_King> present+
18:23:44 <spectranaut_> q?
18:23:47 <pkra> ... I think we can discover a lot from the review.
18:24:48 <pkra> ... I want to mention that some things are trickier. E.g. accessible name doesn't have an equivalent. We have content description, labelledby etc. We have discussed this internally but having insights from this group would be very useful.
18:25:15 <pkra> ... all the tricky things that this group has dealt with will help. E.g. overriding, concatenating or not
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18:25:26 <jamesn> topic: Add namefrom: heading. https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2650
18:25:40 <jamesn> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2650
18:26:02 <pkra> spectranaut_: we didn't get to finalize this at TPAC
18:26:10 <pkra> ... in particular with Feedback from Jamie Teh.
18:26:35 <pkra> jcraig: I think Jamie is right and we need to think about it some more.
18:26:59 <scott> q+
18:27:10 <spectranaut_> ack scott
18:27:25 <pkra> scott: what was the issue?
18:27:33 <pkra> jcraig: essentially dom mutations.
18:27:47 <pkra> ... for performance and author reasons this poses some difficulties.
18:28:08 <pkra> scott: right. Jamie mentioned DOM vs accessibility tree as well.
18:28:29 <pkra> jcraig: some of that leads to mutations as well.
18:28:54 <jamesn> topic:  feat: aria-actions addition to the ARIA spec https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1805
18:29:28 <pkra> spectranaut_: since Sarah is not here, we should skip.
18:29:29 <jamesn> topic: Expose implicit ARIA semantics (browser-defaults and ElementInternals) https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2663
18:29:42 <jamesn> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2663
18:30:15 <pkra> jamesn: wondering where are we lining up on this.
18:30:25 <pkra> ... I'm not sure we have  good path forward.
18:30:58 <pkra> ... we had come to 2 approaches.
18:31:58 <spectranaut_> q?
18:32:04 <pkra> ... this seems to be a fundamental blocker for testing tools.
18:32:47 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2663#issuecomment-3433501810
18:33:17 <pkra> giacomo-petri: server side it's not so much a problem
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18:33:24 <pkra> jamesn: it's definitely a blocker for axe
18:33:33 <cyns> present+
18:34:11 <pkra> spectranaut_: I'm not sure how to move this forward.
18:34:24 <pkra> jane: do we need the relevant people on the call?
18:35:02 <pkra> jamesn: I think the arguments are laid out on the issue, e.g. axe and everything that uses it
18:35:19 <pkra> ... I think there's always encapsulation problems
18:35:28 <pkra> ... which get in the way.
18:35:56 <pkra> Jacques: solution 2 looks nicer to me
18:36:09 <jcraig> q+
18:36:10 <pkra> ... to advocate on Ben's behalf
18:36:48 <pkra> jamesn: I suspect in plain JS this will remain a problem. In an extension it's not  problem but it remains.
18:37:01 <spectranaut_> ack jcraig
18:37:26 <pkra> jcraig: the way I understand this, it's not technically a web compat issue since it's never been solved via a public web API.
18:37:37 <pkra> ... there's webdriver etc but never a public DOM API
18:38:27 <pkra> ... ... so it feels to say  it's breaking axe seems very strong.
18:38:34 <pkra> jamesn: setsInternalElementRole is a relative new feature and it causes this problem, no?
18:38:51 <scott> q+
18:39:15 <pkra> jcraig: I doesn't seem unlike other cases where heuristics were needed.
18:39:41 <pkra> ... but it's a new feature
18:39:59 <scott> q-
18:40:18 <pkra> ... we've had other requests, e.g. opening up the accessibility tree. And there were concerns (performance, security etc).
18:40:37 <pkra> ... so the second part is just not feasible. We cannot let JS in general inspect everything
18:41:08 <pkra> ... but in a test environment, like webdriver or audits, this is possible. And I understand that e.g. axe would like something in plain JS
18:41:42 <pkra> ... I know there are arguments around elements internals that it's problematic in various ways
18:41:49 <front-endian-jane> q+
18:41:59 <jarhar> q+
18:42:58 <pkra> scott: I agree with both James and James. I think it would be useful to determine the role. But we know it's difficult for good reasons. The computed role changing is a problem
18:43:09 <pkra> ... we need to acknowledge this limitation
18:43:14 <jcraig> q?
18:43:25 <jamesn> ack front-endian-jane
18:44:41 <pkra> jane: I agree it's a new feature and thus not breaking anything technically but it seems it would create a lot of work if switching to custom elements cannot be tested properly. This is a problem worth fixing.
18:45:06 <spectranaut_> q+ to ask about proposal 2 specifically -- element.implicitAria
18:45:25 <jamesn> ack jarhar
18:45:31 <pkra> ... but it's unclear how the options will help. I understand that breaking encapsulation is a problem but it seems theoretical with a real impact on accessibility of websites.
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18:46:27 <pkra> jarhar: chromium has had computedRole for over a decade. It's interesting that it's so old.
18:46:39 <pkra> jcraig: is this a public  API?
18:46:45 <jarhar> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2663#issuecomment-3444944924
18:46:48 <pkra> jarhar: it's behind a flag.
18:47:03 <jarhar> https://source.chromium.org/chromium/chromium/src/+/main:third_party/blink/renderer/core/dom/element.idl;l=164-166;drc=1b33d126f307fc6442cf8adf370e122cbaa9571f
18:47:18 <jarhar> https://source.chromium.org/chromium/chromium/src/+/main:third_party/blink/renderer/core/dom/element.cc;l=3491-3500;drc=1b33d126f307fc6442cf8adf370e122cbaa9571f
18:47:48 <pkra> ... it seems heavy but it probably works.
18:48:01 <pkra> Jacques: this requires a flag and restart?
18:48:05 <pkra> jarhar: I think just the flag.
18:48:20 <pkra> ... the flag is "computedAccessibilityInfo"
18:49:02 <pkra> ... it might be very very slow right now, starting/stopping the accessibility engine.
18:49:39 <pkra> cyns: CLI or runtime?
18:49:44 <pkra> Jacques: it's a runtime flag
18:50:51 <pkra> cyns: people who cannot use fancy flags (like locked down browsers) won't be able to use this, right?
18:50:58 <pkra> jcraig: right. Would need an admin.
18:51:16 <pkra> jane: even in those environments exceptions can sometimes be made for testing etc.
18:51:32 <pkra> jcraig: and presumably you can deploy this in CI environments, too.
18:51:52 <jamesn> ack spectranaut_
18:51:52 <Zakim> spectranaut_, you wanted to ask about proposal 2 specifically -- element.implicitAria
18:52:19 <pkra> spectranaut_: I wanted to hear people's thoughts on the implicitAria proposal. It seems more lightweight.
18:52:31 <pkra> ... I wonder what testing people would think
18:52:45 <pkra> ... but there doesn't seem to be feedback on that.
18:53:32 <pkra> scott: I think both approaches would have some benefits at least.
18:54:01 <jcraig> s/I doesn't seem unlike other cases where heuristics were needed./There are other existing scenarios where Axe-Core can't detect the real role... I just want to make sure we're stating the problem accurately. This is not "breaking" Axe-Core. This is a new web feature that can't be tested in client-side code, and client-side testing tool devs want to solve that *new* problem./
18:54:56 <pkra> ... this stems from the allowed-roles in aria-in-html. That's a really good basis. But sometimes setting a rule it breaks something down in the engines and it's really hard to tell where the problem lies.
18:54:58 <jarhar> more context on the code i found: https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromium/src/+/c659df27843e0631319982e18b8ec195cd81100d  https://issues.chromium.org/issues/41147084     https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/427
18:55:04 <jamesn> q+
18:55:10 <jamesn> ack me
18:55:14 <pkra> ... knowing the implicit role really helps but even then it probably still only reaches "90% sure".
18:55:49 <pkra> jamesn: any of this would give rules engine a way to write some rules instead of having no idea what role a component has going on.
18:56:26 <jcraig> s/deploy this in CI environments, too./deploy this in CI environments with a command line flag. Looks like perf would not be good, but determinable on a case-by-case basis. That's better than hanging every person's browser to solve a testing use case./
18:56:33 <pkra> giacomo-petri: I think the problem is like not knowing what the explicit role is. If you set role=button on a button, if you know the implicit one is region but the current one is button you can raises an issue but it's not relevant.
18:56:53 <pkra> ... so you can raise it but you don't know if it's accurate.
18:57:19 <pkra> mattking: I think that's a good point. If you knew it's a button, you could raise an error on focus. But if it's a region, you wouldn't catch that.
18:57:33 <pkra> siri: wouldn't the computedRole give the end result?
18:57:37 <pkra> jcraig: assuming it works, yes.
18:57:52 <pkra> mattking: we're talking about the implicit role though
18:58:07 <pkra> jamesn: aren't we focused on custom elements which do not have implicit roles
18:58:26 <pkra> giacomo-petri: yes but if you change the role, you still don't know.
18:58:48 <pkra> jamesn: you're setting it though, right?
18:58:58 <pkra> giacomo-petri: but if you change it later?
18:59:16 <pkra> jamesn: you'd set it the same way and get it back the same way?
18:59:30 <pkra> jcraig: It would be great to have an example.
18:59:51 <jamesn> github-bot, end topic
18:59:53 <pkra> spectranaut_: FYI 2 week break
18:59:57 <pkra> see you on the 8th!
19:00:01 <pkra> zakim, end meeting
19:00:01 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Stefan, filippo-zorzi, dgrogan, Adam_Page, giacomo-petri, pkra, Siri, markrogers, jamesn, Jacques, Priti, scott, Daniel, front-endian-jane,
19:00:04 <Zakim> ... Matt_King, cyns
19:00:04 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
19:00:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/12/18-aria-minutes.html Zakim
19:00:12 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, pkra; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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19:00:12 <jcraig> s/jcraig: It would be great to have an example./spectranaut_: @giacomo-petri, it would be great to have an example./
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19:01:16 <jcraig> RRSAgent, make minutes
19:01:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/12/18-aria-minutes.html jcraig
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