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15:25:19 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Meeting: PEWG
15:25:26 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/179eec70-2331-455f-8599-01a8bfdffc31/20251217T110000/
15:25:30 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Chair: Patrick H. Lauke
15:25:37 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Scribe: Patrick H. Lauke
15:25:43 <Patrick_H_Lauke> ScribeNick: Patrick_H_Lauke
15:25:45 <Patrick_H_Lauke> present+
16:01:16 <Patrick_H_Lauke> present+ smaug
16:01:32 <Patrick_H_Lauke> present+ mustaq
16:01:55 <flackr> flackr has joined #pointerevents
16:02:08 <Patrick_H_Lauke> present+ flackr
16:04:45 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Rob: is there any chance to move this meeting? Vlad would love to join, but this time doesn't work
16:04:58 <Patrick_H_Lauke> [group discusses possible times/dates]
16:05:09 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: decided to move to -1 hour current time slot]
16:05:34 <Patrick_H_Lauke> ACTION: change the calendar invite etc to have PEWG starting one hour earlier in the day
16:06:18 <Patrick_H_Lauke> topic: Recharter https://github.com/w3c/strategy/issues/515
16:06:22 <Patrick_H_Lauke> present+ plh
16:06:56 <Patrick_H_Lauke> PLH: two comments we had still: a) difficulty differentiating between what's in and out of scope for gesture
16:08:36 <Patrick_H_Lauke> PLH: struggling to find differentiation
16:10:12 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: roughly, out of scope is how the user agent determines if something IS a gesture (look at the position, and delta time, and if below a threshold treat it as a swipe). what is IN scope is: once the black box inside the UA has determined something IS a swipe, how is this swipe etc gesture exposed to the author
16:10:49 <Patrick_H_Lauke> PLH: second question is do we actually have a spec / incubation that shows exactly what we want to specify
16:11:49 <Patrick_H_Lauke> mustaq: doubletap (?)
16:12:01 <Patrick_H_Lauke> PLH: also, are we thinking of having this as a separate spec for gestures?
16:12:15 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: I was envisaging it being part of the PE spec itself
16:12:39 <mustaq> Extension touch-action spec: https://compat.spec.whatwg.org/#touch-action
16:12:48 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Rob: I would also say it's easier to keep it all under the one spec, as we'll also likely need to define the interplay between gestures and regular singular pointer events
16:13:02 <Patrick_H_Lauke> mustaq: sorry, meant pinch-zoom, not double-tap
16:13:27 <Patrick_H_Lauke> PLH: that's touch-action, not gestures
16:13:35 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Rob: touch-action lets you PREVENT gestures...
16:13:47 <mustaq> https://w3c.github.io/pointerevents/#the-touch-action-css-property
16:14:07 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: from my point of view, I was thinking something along the lines of https://hammerjs.github.io/
16:14:57 <smaug> https://searchfox.org/firefox-main/source/dom/webidl/SimpleGestureEvent.webidl#8
16:15:23 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: gesture events from webkit implementation https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/GestureEvent
16:15:29 <mustaq> https://caniuse.com/?search=pinch-zoom
16:17:00 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: are we perhaps jumping ahead too far? should we incubate something small first, with an aim to implement that as part of Level 4
16:17:30 <Patrick_H_Lauke> PLH: tentative deliverable - still in scope, can work on it, but we need to do incubation first
16:18:02 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: do we need to already have something written down, even just as a markdown file, to kick off the incubation?
16:18:37 <Patrick_H_Lauke> PLH: at best can put as tentative deliverable, at worst we need to write a rough proposal to point to
16:21:13 <Patrick_H_Lauke> PLH: tentative MAY fly , but would stand better chance if we had rough proposal
16:21:29 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: if it's easier/better, we can probably work on a rough proposal
16:22:09 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: something that includes rotation and scale as per what WebKit has implemented. then additionally swipe
16:22:17 <Patrick_H_Lauke> PLH: what about pan and zoom
16:22:23 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Rob: pan is same as swipe
16:22:33 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Rob: zoom is scale
16:23:46 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: pan and swipe may need differentiation, but we can discuss further
16:24:07 <Patrick_H_Lauke> ACTION: Patrick to draft a rough initial outline of gesture spec idea as separate markdown file in PE repo
16:25:01 <Patrick_H_Lauke> ACTION: PLH to make tweak to charter to try and disambiguate in/out of scope more precisely
16:25:25 <Patrick_H_Lauke> TOPIC: Follow-up from UI Events meeting https://docs.google.com/document/d/1iRFgqtReyomoCwZFEdRUdoW1ManD5t656CVUGJm7Xos/
16:25:47 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: just as reminder what the concrete actions are from yesterday's UI events meeting
16:26:05 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: if i remember correctly, philippe you said you'll do a PR...
16:26:50 <smaug> zcorpan is fixing UIEvents build errors https://github.com/w3c/uievents/pull/408
16:26:54 <Patrick_H_Lauke> PLH: yes on my todo. already done triage/labelling issues, will transfer over
16:29:25 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: if i recall correctly, our charter wording is already saying that we'll look at relationship between PE and mouse, pointer lock, etc. we're perhaps a bit cheeky that "yes, we'll define relationship with mouse events by basically stealing mouse event definition for ourselves", but think it's still ok
16:29:45 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: do we want to mention wheel events? they extend mouse events, but perhaps we do need to be explicit
16:32:40 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: philippe want me to propose a tweak to charter to mention wheel?
16:32:53 <Patrick_H_Lauke> PLH: either you do it, or i do it. whoever does it first...
16:33:30 <Patrick_H_Lauke> PLH: looking at the charter again, where it mentions "clarifying the relationship with other interaction events..." ... do we maybe even want to rename Pointer Events to something more generic?
16:33:37 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: Pointer UI Events ;)
16:34:30 <Patrick_H_Lauke> PLH: i'll see if we can tweak the definition further, where it talks about "models"
16:35:02 <Patrick_H_Lauke> TOPIC: WPTs
16:35:28 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: we had an action "Rob to look at adding help/meta to WPTs to disambiguate level 3 and level 4 ones"
16:35:58 <Patrick_H_Lauke> PLH: do we actually need it?
16:36:51 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: i thought we wanted/needed it to disambiguate better which tests we need for 3 specifically
16:37:10 <Patrick_H_Lauke> mustaq: developers probably just care about latest version...
16:38:00 <Patrick_H_Lauke> PLH: if it was just to make W3C process work smoother ... just send me a one-time list of tests manually, and we can then forget it as soon as transition request has been approved. if it's not useful for you beyond that, let's not do the meta/help stuff
16:38:25 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: yeah when implementing i don't care about version...
16:38:47 <Patrick_H_Lauke> PLH: let's not then, and if Rob or whoever can just provide a manual list of what's relevant for 3, then let's just go with that
16:39:34 <Patrick_H_Lauke> PLH: if faster, provide a list of what's just tentative/for 4, so by exclusion we can pinpoint what's just for 3
16:40:23 <Patrick_H_Lauke> ACTION: provide list for PLH to work out what's just Level 3 specific for transition request
16:41:21 <mustaq> https://wpt.fyi/results/pointerevents?label=experimental&label=master&aligned
16:41:26 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Mustaq: there's some tentative and non-standard ones ...
16:42:12 <Patrick_H_Lauke> PLH: i can produce a list, an implementation report, and see if i can find any gaps for the purpose of level 3 transition
16:42:55 <Patrick_H_Lauke> PLH: is it ok if i add the draft implementation report to the level 3 branch
16:42:59 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: yeah go fo it
16:43:09 <Patrick_H_Lauke> PLH: does it publish the branch to github.io?
16:43:18 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: no think only main gets pushed to github.io
16:43:46 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: those experimental/non-standard wpts ... think we should get rid of them ...
16:44:09 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: some things are from internet explorer times...
16:44:27 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: maybe rename them to something ... still nice to have around?
16:44:50 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Mustaq: maybe splitting tests ... standard and non-standard
16:45:05 <Patrick_H_Lauke> mustag: ... tentative ...
16:45:44 <mustaq> https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/167
16:46:07 <Patrick_H_Lauke> mustaq: does the above look reasonable?
16:46:19 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: somehow renaming, or separate directory...
16:46:34 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: does any other spec test this sort of non-standard stuff
16:46:40 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: "to be removed features"
16:46:59 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: couldn't find any webcompat issues in bugzilla relating to these. one i found was very old...
16:47:14 <Patrick_H_Lauke> ACTION: mustaq to explore what to do with the non-standard tests
16:47:27 <Patrick_H_Lauke> mustaq: meanwhile philippe ignore non-standard tests
16:47:31 <Patrick_H_Lauke> PLH: ok!
16:47:36 <plh> https://www.w3.org/2021/04/wpt-fyi-snapshot.html?filter=pointerevents
16:47:44 <Patrick_H_Lauke> PLH: found the tool that does snapshots. may need some tweaking
16:48:06 <Patrick_H_Lauke> PLH: i'll look into it, some undefined ones
16:48:21 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: mustaq was the related target ... slot ... failing in chromium?
16:48:39 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: was it part of this or pointer events tests?
16:48:56 <Patrick_H_Lauke> mustaq: yeah we need proper new test for that
16:49:21 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: ... after target remove from slot ... browsers aren't happy with that
16:49:36 <mustaq> https://wpt.fyi/results/pointerevents/pointerevent_after_target_removed_from_slot.html%3Fmouse?label=experimental&label=master&aligned
16:50:18 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: ... propagation part is defined in DOM spec. issues are not about PE itself
16:50:27 <Patrick_H_Lauke> mustaq: can you file an issue and cc me for that?
16:51:15 <Patrick_H_Lauke> PLH: once we update PE spec and UI events spec, we're going to have to move tests in WPT...but we can wait for 4
16:51:42 <Patrick_H_Lauke> mustaq: do we have to move them, or can we just point to the mouse event spec folder?
16:52:10 <Patrick_H_Lauke> PLH: once we get to implementation report for 4, we'll have a tricky time trying to define what tests PE 4 will cover
16:52:32 <Patrick_H_Lauke> mustaq: worried about links for mouse/ui events tests breaking
16:52:52 <Patrick_H_Lauke> PLH: something to consider ... which is easier for developers
16:59:12 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: next meeting 14 Januar 2026. have a good break/holiday everybody
16:59:19 <Patrick_H_Lauke> RRSAgent, make logs world-visible
16:59:28 <Patrick_H_Lauke> present+ plh
16:59:38 <Patrick_H_Lauke> RRSAgent, generate minutes
16:59:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/12/17-pointerevents-minutes.html Patrick_H_Lauke
16:59:59 <Patrick_H_Lauke> RRSAgent, bye
16:59:59 <RRSAgent> I see 5 open action items saved in https://www.w3.org/2025/12/17-pointerevents-actions.rdf :
16:59:59 <RRSAgent> ACTION: change the calendar invite etc to have PEWG starting one hour earlier in the day [1]
16:59:59 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/12/17-pointerevents-irc#T16-05-34
16:59:59 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Patrick to draft a rough initial outline of gesture spec idea as separate markdown file in PE repo [2]
16:59:59 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/12/17-pointerevents-irc#T16-24-07
16:59:59 <RRSAgent> ACTION: PLH to make tweak to charter to try and disambiguate in/out of scope more precisely [3]
16:59:59 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/12/17-pointerevents-irc#T16-25-01
16:59:59 <RRSAgent> ACTION: provide list for PLH to work out what's just Level 3 specific for transition request [4]
16:59:59 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/12/17-pointerevents-irc#T16-40-23
16:59:59 <RRSAgent> ACTION: mustaq to explore what to do with the non-standard tests [5]
16:59:59 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/12/17-pointerevents-irc#T16-47-14