17:58:28 RRSAgent has joined #aria 17:58:32 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/12/11-aria-irc 17:58:32 RRSAgent, make logs Public 17:58:33 Meeting: ARIA WG 17:58:33 chair: ValerieYoung 17:58:37 agendabot, find agenda 17:58:37 spectranaut_, OK. This may take a minute... 17:59:20 Sorry, I did not find an agenda. 17:59:48 agendabot, find agenda 17:59:48 spectranaut_, OK. This may take a minute... 17:59:48 Sorry, I did not find an agenda. 18:01:43 katez has joined #aria 18:01:45 scott has joined #aria 18:02:01 agendabot, find agenda 18:02:01 spectranaut_, OK. This may take a minute... 18:02:01 Sorry, I did not find an agenda. 18:02:10 pkra has joined #aria 18:02:17 Jacques has joined #aria 18:02:24 present+ 18:02:31 present+ 18:02:32 sarah has joined #aria 18:02:39 Priti has joined #aria 18:03:03 present+ 18:03:04 markrogers has joined #aria 18:03:05 agenda+ [New PR Triage](https://github.com/search?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created:%3E=2025-12-04+repo:w3c/aria&type=Issues) 18:03:05 agenda+ [New Issue Triage](https://tinyurl.com/4be5mrk4) 18:03:05 agenda+ [WPT Open PRs](https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y) 18:03:05 18:03:05 agenda+ [Add ariaNotify](https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2577) 18:03:05 agenda+ [aria-actions: handling focus when actions are synthetically triggered](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2691) 18:03:06 agenda+ [core aam roles known entries](https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2682) 18:03:35 present+ 18:03:36 scribe+ 18:03:44 Siri has joined #aria 18:03:53 zakim, agenda? 18:03:53 I see 6 items remaining on the agenda: 18:03:54 1. [New PR Triage](https://github.com/search?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created:%3E=2025-12-04+repo:w3c/aria&type=Issues) [from jamesn] 18:03:54 2. [New Issue Triage](https://tinyurl.com/4be5mrk4) [from jamesn] 18:03:54 3. [WPT Open PRs](https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y) [from jamesn] 18:03:54 4. [Add ariaNotify](https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2577) [from jamesn] 18:03:55 5. [aria-actions: handling focus when actions are synthetically triggered](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2691) [from jamesn] 18:03:56 present + 18:03:58 6. [core aam roles known entries](https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2682) [from jamesn] 18:04:02 Stefan has joined #aria 18:04:03 giacomo-petri has joined #aria 18:04:07 present+ 18:04:10 present+ 18:04:12 [Intros] 18:04:35 cyns has joined #aria 18:04:42 present+ 18:04:49 present+ 18:07:50 present+ 18:09:55 front-endian-jane has joined #aria 18:10:10 present+ 18:10:22 present+ 18:10:50 zakim, take up next 18:10:50 agendum 1 -- [New PR Triage](https://github.com/search?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created:%3E=2025-12-04+repo:w3c/aria&type=Issues) -- taken up [from jamesn] 18:10:57 zakim, close item 1 18:10:57 agendum 1, [New PR Triage](https://github.com/search?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created:%3E=2025-12-04+repo:w3c/aria&type=Issues), closed 18:10:59 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 18:10:59 2. [New Issue Triage](https://tinyurl.com/4be5mrk4) [from jamesn] 18:11:02 zakim, take up next 18:11:02 agendum 2 -- [New Issue Triage](https://tinyurl.com/4be5mrk4) -- taken up [from jamesn] 18:12:05 spectranaut_: Editorial from Peter 18:12:26 pkra: Noticed this because of a link in 7.1 18:12:29 daniel-mac has joined #aria 18:12:37 ... Should link to presentational conflict resolution probably 18:12:48 ... It's a simple change 18:13:08 spectranaut_: If anyone wants a good first issue that'll be great if you could volunteer 18:13:26 Jacques: I could do this 18:13:37 present+ 18:13:49 spectranaut_: Editorial from me -- will discuss with other editors and Daniel 18:14:13 spectranaut_: #37 in mathml -- How should alt text be exposed 18:14:33 ... We should agenda it 18:14:50 jamesn: and we should check to pick it up in our query 18:15:28 jongund has joined #aria 18:15:39 JamesC: Webkit has the most complete implementation of mathml 18:15:47 pkra: Spec is not maintained 18:15:59 cyns: Wonder if James T wants to resurrect this as well 18:16:25 JamesC: It seems it's got most of the mac data, which is fine 18:17:06 spectranaut_: @@@ focus grouping 18:17:36 s/focus grouping/group focus/ 18:17:55 Priti: I took a look at this 18:18:06 JamesC: You can add me as assignee 18:18:49 Priti: Proposal is interesting, when I tried with VO on iphone it does announce multiple links as one link 18:19:08 daniel-mac has joined #aria 18:19:13 ... If we use aria-focus this may help 18:19:30 JamesC: This may be a bug that we can fix without a new attribute 18:19:43 ... I am guessing that's more than markup, there are also style changes affecting 18:19:57 ... If that's the case that may result in some additional nodes being involved 18:20:22 ... I want to review because I think it's a bug. If iOS VO is the only one having the issue, I'd treat it as bug 18:20:44 Priti: Could reproduce with Chrome andd JAWS and Android 18:20:59 JamesC: Would you add this to the issue comment? 18:21:04 Matt_King has joined #aria 18:21:15 present+ 18:21:34 zakim, take up next 18:21:34 agendum 3 -- [WPT Open PRs](https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y) -- taken up [from jamesn] 18:22:21 zakim, close item 3 18:22:21 agendum 3, [WPT Open PRs](https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y), closed 18:22:22 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 18:22:22 4. [Add ariaNotify](https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2577) [from jamesn] 18:22:23 zakim, take up next 18:22:24 agendum 4 -- [Add ariaNotify](https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2577) -- taken up [from jamesn] 18:23:13 daniel-mac has joined #aria 18:23:27 github-bot, take up https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2577 18:23:27 Topic: Add ariaNotify 18:23:27 OK, I'll post this discussion to https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2577 18:25:11 spectranaut_: You put this on the agenda Jacque with some comments 18:25:28 Jacques: We were waiting for commitments from other browsers 18:25:34 ... webkit had some movement 18:25:43 ... What are next steps? 18:26:08 JamesC: Apple engineers are optimistic about it, can't give specific tiimelines, it's near to the top of the pile 18:26:22 spectranaut_: Is there an open issue? 18:26:27 JamesC: I'll look for it 18:26:41 keithamus: We're possitive, no immediate plans to implement though 18:26:45 spectranaut_: Do you have an issue? 18:26:51 keithamus: I'll dig it out 18:28:26 JamesC: I'd say best to wait until another implementation is at least started 18:28:31 Jacques: Sounds good 18:28:34 zakim, take up next 18:28:34 agendum 5 -- [aria-actions: handling focus when actions are synthetically triggered](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2691) -- taken up [from jamesn] 18:29:20 github-bot, take up https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2691 18:29:20 Topic: aria-actions: handling focus when actions are synthetically triggered 18:29:20 OK, I'll post this discussion to https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2691 18:29:25 daniel-mac has joined #aria 18:30:02 sarah: The behavior we want is on the referencing element you wnat to be able to choose the secondary action, activate, and stay on the primary action 18:30:27 ... But activation triggers focus to the secondary action, which is not desired user expectationisbehavior 18:30:54 ... From the browser's perspective it's easy to just not call focus, but that may have privacy/security implications 18:31:14 q+ 18:31:16 q+ 18:31:20 ... We could move focus back to primary just after it's moved to secondary, but that may create oddities in AT behavior 18:31:30 ack Matt_King 18:31:38 front-endian-jane has joined #aria 18:31:47 Matt_King: I commented on this issue with what I wanted to say 18:32:32 q+ to comment about authoring concerns with option 2 18:32:34 ... If the action itself causes (or should cause) a focus change, the result may not be that you want focus to immediately go back 18:32:36 q- 18:32:48 ... However, if it opens a menu/dialog or similar that's when you do want focus back 18:33:14 ... What if the primary element is destroyed 18:33:16 front-endian-jane has joined #aria 18:34:15 ... For example, actions to increase the product quantity, which are expected to be performed repeatedly, you'd like to here the updated amount but still keep focus on the trigger 18:34:37 ack front-endian-jane 18:34:37 front-endian-jane, you wanted to comment about authoring concerns with option 2 18:34:53 q+ 18:34:57 jongund has joined #aria 18:35:17 jongund has joined #aria 18:35:21 q+ 18:35:25 ack jcraig 18:35:30 Jane: Option 2 may cause author errors. Agree. 18:35:46 JamesC: I may change my mind later when I fully review the thread. 18:35:53 ... Some clarifying questions 18:36:30 front-endian-jane has joined #aria 18:37:00 ... In the gmail-like scenario -- I think gmail is doing a smart inteerception of the click event, it might be a known issue 18:37:49 ... Second -- "less of a detection vector". How could this be a detection vector? 18:38:16 sarah: Because keyboard could also trigger focus change 18:38:39 JamesC: I'll think some more about that one 18:38:51 q+ 18:38:56 JamesC: From Matt_King's list 18:39:49 ... We could add some advice to the implementation that the center point of the similar event doesn't have these capabilities 18:40:06 Matt_King: Are yo saying that if you use option 1 you can obscure it with the location to be randomized? 18:40:33 JamesC: Time in particular, timing should'nt be predictable. Triggering a click and triggering a focus after some seconds may be even more of a detection vector 18:40:56 s/vector/vector because it's multiple events that are synthesized/ 18:41:04 ack jamesn 18:41:43 JamesN: A well-written application where the button itself can take care of moving the focus back where it was 18:41:58 ... This is not a requirement. I don't think this should block us 18:42:01 jongund has joined #aria 18:42:22 ... #1 has privacy issues, #2 is subjected to author errors 18:42:31 q? 18:42:48 daniel-mac has joined #aria 18:42:58 Matt_King: All the examples we've come up with, aria-actions doesn't end up adding any value at all if the focus change happens. There's literally no point in having aria-actions 18:43:11 ack sarah 18:43:28 sarah: I wouldn't go that far -- having aria-aactions still tels you that there are actions 18:44:08 ... If you are using a screen reader virtual cursor your focus is moving randomly without pretty much any interaction, which in itself can be used for tracking 18:44:33 ... If folks are oK with this then there might not be a problem 18:44:57 JamesC: I wouldn't implement something differently than mainstream would do 18:45:13 ... If something moves focus "mainstream", it should move it too 18:45:34 ... We should add an author requirement to manage the "focus back" afterwards 18:46:01 Matt_King: There's a challenge. IF you put an author requirements that means author can't support a combination of mouse/keyboar users 18:46:44 ... If you say that author shouldn't allow focus to be moved via click that creates another accessibility problems 18:47:02 JamesC: Author should manage that, didn't say shouldnt move 18:47:09 q+ 18:47:43 Jane: If someone triggers and action in a menu, if it's a mouse user that clicked on it I want to close the menu 18:47:51 ... How could I distinguish these? 18:48:09 JamesC: I don't think you should keep focus in the menu item regardless 18:48:47 Matt_King: We'd appreciated help from this group to solve our current proposed examples. One is a set of tabs with actions, another is a list box with possible actions for each element on the list 18:49:08 q+ 18:49:42 ... In the list box, if the mouse click hovers and clikcs the button, we do want focus to be on that button, but if the screen reader is on the list item and clikcs the button via the action item, we don't want focus to go there 18:49:44 q+ to acknowledge we're using two different definitions of "focus management" 18:50:43 ack sarah 18:50:55 sarah: This is hard to resolve from an author's perspective 18:51:37 ... Even if you try you'd still have the focus bouncing. If we can do that that'd e the best approach. I don't think that's achievable by authors at this point 18:52:13 q+ bryan 18:52:54 ack jcraig 18:52:54 jcraig, you wanted to acknowledge we're using two different definitions of "focus management" 18:52:57 JamesC: Different definitions of managing focus. Matt was talking about the ARIA definitions, I was talking more generically about author controlling focus 18:53:32 ... For the tab container, if you trigger this you'd change to tab container and move focus 18:54:10 q+ 18:54:17 ... In the menu, it'd trigger a click event in one of these aactionable elements and then whatever happens results in another UI event which will need focus handling anyways 18:54:56 sarah: An action on every column header to sort. You want to be able to trigger the action without the focus moving to the inside button every time 18:55:16 Matt_King: The APG examples are not at all as you're describing 18:55:24 JamesC: Please link them to this issue 18:55:28 Matt_King: I'll do 18:55:46 ack bryan 18:55:47 Bryan: Is there an event? 18:56:17 JamesC: It's possible, but we talked about intentional events triggering AT events and it didn't really work 18:57:11 Siri: Are we talking about actions that appear on hover or on focus? Or about menus and sub menus? 18:57:28 ... Focus management would be done differently for each 18:57:52 q+ to answer Siri 18:57:57 ack Siri 18:58:16 ... How are we trying to differentiate this? 18:58:48 q+ 18:58:49 jongund has joined #aria 18:58:59 ack jcraig 18:58:59 jcraig, you wanted to answer Siri 18:59:04 zakim, close the queue 18:59:04 ok, spectranaut_, the speaker queue is closed 18:59:05 JamesC: Actions is a concept from VoiceOver, we are trying to come up with a way to implement this on the web. It's primitive. It only triggers the action based on what the app originally does 18:59:33 ... Some of the proposals here may allow for AT detection 18:59:50 sarah: Does VO move focus? 19:00:15 Matt_King: VO triggers the action and sends it to the app through the api, then the app does whatever they decide 19:00:39 sarah: Maybe click but not focus on the action is the way to go 19:01:12 ... user events may not be a problem for AT detection cause they are everywhere 19:01:20 +1 to activating but not moving and allow authors to manage it if they think differently 19:01:28 James: the iOS implementation doesn't trigger the "tap" event 19:01:44 ... It should have the exact same behavior as a mouse click would have on the web 19:01:50 sarah: Theoretically yes 19:02:23 Jane: The user experience wouldn't be as good if author doesn't have the ability to maintain focus. But that'd be differentiating the screen reader experience 19:02:35 JamesC: As a web author you can intercept that click 19:02:48 Jane: But I cannot only do it for screen reader user and not for mouse user 19:02:53 daniel-mac has joined #aria 19:02:56 JamesC: Why would a mouse user wnat that? 19:03:11 q+ 19:03:16 Matt_King: I talked earlier about these two different expectations 19:03:20 q- 19:03:27 sarah: You also don't want the focus back 19:03:43 JamesC: VO has the ability to follow mouse events based on VO settins 19:04:04 rrsagent, draft minutes 19:04:05 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/12/11-aria-minutes.html Daniel 19:04:38 JamesN: I am assuming the order of events is going to be the same, we could use the same for sccreen reader users 19:04:59 sarah: You don't want to prevent focus unless the event is triggered by the action 19:05:22 JamesN: Focus could be there already. 19:05:52 Janes: You click there with the physical mouse and then you go back to the keyboard, there might be a different behavior 19:06:06 JamesN: You just want focus to be there 19:06:35 sarah: To prevent focus going there you should call focus somewhere else 19:06:59 rrsagent, draft minutes 19:07:01 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/12/11-aria-minutes.html Daniel 19:07:25 zakim, end meeting 19:07:25 As of this point the attendees have been pkra, frehner, Jacques, katez, giacomo-petri, Stefan, Siri, cyns, sarah, front-endian-jane, Daniel, smockle, Matt_King 19:07:29 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 19:07:30 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/12/11-aria-minutes.html Zakim 19:07:35 I am happy to have been of service, Daniel; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. 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