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16:50:47 <AutomatedTester> chair: David Burns
16:51:08 <AutomatedTester> Meeting: Browser Testing and Tools Dec 2025
16:52:17 <AutomatedTester> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver/2025-12-BiDi
16:52:37 <AutomatedTester> Scribe: David Burns
16:52:44 <AutomatedTester> ScribeNick: AutomatedTester
16:53:33 <AutomatedTester> rrsagent, set logs world-visible
16:53:44 <AutomatedTester> rrsagent, make minutes
16:53:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/12/10-webdriver-minutes.html AutomatedTester
16:56:52 <AutomatedTester> present+
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17:02:55 <jimevans> present+
17:02:57 <jgraham> RRSAgent, pointer
17:02:57 <RRSAgent> See https://www.w3.org/2025/12/10-webdriver-irc#T17-02-57
17:02:58 <jdescottes> jdescottes has joined #webdriver
17:03:06 <jdescottes> present+
17:03:10 <tidoust> present+
17:03:15 <whimboo> present+
17:03:16 <orkon> present+
17:03:19 <jgraham> present+
17:04:18 <jgraham> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver/2025-12-BiDi#Agenda
17:04:30 <jgraham> RRSAgent: make minutes
17:04:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/12/10-webdriver-minutes.html jgraham
17:04:51 <AutomatedTester> https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver/2025-12-BiDi
17:04:52 <sasha> present+
17:05:31 <sadym> present+
17:05:58 <jgraham> Please fill in https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tGRG8MtpWlIDTfQstxPw1hRR_lowrdAl5z7QFq56Rs8/edit?gid=0#gid=0 with avilability for longer WG meeting.
17:06:08 <AutomatedTester> Topic: Bypass CSPs for async calls, nested calls, calls to content scripts
17:06:26 <AutomatedTester> github: https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/issues/1024
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17:06:55 <AutomatedTester> jdescottes: I have been looking it how we should bypass CSP for non-trivial cases
17:07:34 <AutomatedTester> ... initially Chrome was doing things here and we have aligned Firefox to the chrome way and it is not spec'ed yet
17:07:46 <AutomatedTester> ... we need to define the behaviour to spec it
17:08:05 <AutomatedTester> ... we currently only do this for sync
17:08:38 <AutomatedTester> ... do we want to update the implementation to default to bypasses CSP in all cases or should it be an explicit flag
17:09:14 <AutomatedTester> .... one thing worth noting is that devtools doesn't follow this and it enforces CSP in eval which will be different
17:09:18 <sadym> q+
17:09:21 <AutomatedTester> ... so what do we want to do here?
17:09:24 <AutomatedTester> ack sadym
17:09:56 <AutomatedTester> sadym: it's more or less related to scipt eval with bidi
17:10:53 <orkon> q+
17:10:55 <jdescottes> q+
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17:11:01 <AutomatedTester> ... <describes issues in devtools>
17:11:42 <AutomatedTester> ack next
17:12:09 <AutomatedTester> orkon: I wanted to summarise that we are ok with the works currently
17:12:21 <AutomatedTester> ... it is hard to align here related to tasks
17:12:51 <AutomatedTester> ... i think the current default behaviour is expected by automation users
17:12:56 <AutomatedTester> ack next
17:13:09 <sadym> sadym: according to the JS spec, the micortasks scheduled with setTimeout are not attributed with the source, so there is no way we can attribute them as "trusted" or "force to run". However we can allow for "thenables" to be run in such cases.
17:13:31 <sadym> sadym: TL;DR; we can "promise.then", but cannot "setTimeout()"
17:13:53 <sadym> aq+
17:13:55 <sadym> q+
17:13:59 <AutomatedTester> jdescottes: do you think that there is a usecase for bypassing CSP using thenables?
17:14:16 <AutomatedTester> ack next
17:14:43 <AutomatedTester> sadym: we cannot test when one chain is broken because thenables execute immediately
17:14:50 <orkon> q+
17:14:57 <AutomatedTester> ... we do have use cases for thenables but with settimeout it doesnt work
17:15:00 <AutomatedTester> ack next
17:15:03 <jdescottes> q+
17:15:55 <AutomatedTester> orkon: I didn't test the thenable case in settimeout in CSP ... but I think that would be fine
17:15:57 <AutomatedTester> ack next
17:16:37 <AutomatedTester> jdescottes: I think in that case we wait for the PR for script eval is fully merged before we move on with this
17:16:46 <AutomatedTester> topic: Bypass CSPs as a separate command./ configuration
17:16:56 <AutomatedTester> github: https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/issues/1033
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17:18:36 <AutomatedTester> jdescottes: by bypassing CSP on the page for anything that might be handled... it's something that playwright use this, and they find it is very useful. This is for situation where script has nonce defined. this would be scoped to browsing context or global context
17:18:41 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:19:22 <orkon> q+
17:19:34 <AutomatedTester> jdescottes: there is a playwright issue linked please read that
17:19:37 <AutomatedTester> ack next
17:19:41 <sadym> q+
17:20:12 <sadym> q-
17:20:13 <AutomatedTester> orkon: I think we should have it... i think that bidi should be able to control this
17:20:31 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:20:34 <AutomatedTester> topic: Add subscription ID to event data
17:20:43 <AutomatedTester> github: https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/issues/1032
17:21:03 <AutomatedTester> jimevans: we added the ability to sub to events on user context
17:21:07 <jgraham> q+
17:21:19 <AutomatedTester> ... most of the events have the browsing context that they are coming from
17:21:37 <AutomatedTester> ... if you do it via the user context it is hard to track where it is coming from
17:21:57 <AutomatedTester> ... it's not impossible but definitely not ergonomic
17:22:09 <AutomatedTester> ... this has been rasised by the selenium contributor
17:23:03 <AutomatedTester> ... there is a proposal that has an array of subscription ids. I am looking to get discussion around this to improve the use case
17:23:14 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:23:18 <AutomatedTester> ack next
17:23:25 <sadym> q+
17:23:46 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: I think we have 2 option. Add user context to the event. I think this ia good idea anyway
17:24:34 <jimevans> q+
17:24:34 <AutomatedTester> ... adding the id to the event is a good idea and I feel we have discussed before and forgot why we didn't do it.
17:25:03 <AutomatedTester> ... I dont know if we are doing a de-duplication of events if you resubscribe
17:25:35 <AutomatedTester> ... I like the model as it makes things easier on the client side
17:25:38 <AutomatedTester> ack next
17:26:23 <AutomatedTester> sadym: from what I remember the subscription can be set by different users and that was the concern if user a subscribes and user b unsubscribes
17:26:23 <jdescottes> q+
17:26:33 <AutomatedTester> ... in the user context it wont be a problem
17:26:35 <AutomatedTester> ack next
17:27:12 <AutomatedTester> jimevans: when I was discussing it with the user, I mentioned that if we returned the subscription ids to the event
17:27:27 <AutomatedTester> ... there are cases where events could leak out info
17:27:40 <jgraham> q+
17:28:09 <AutomatedTester> ... if multiple clients subscribe to the same events it could be a problem
17:28:34 <AutomatedTester> ... we can add ids or user context could be a valid solution but not sure if there is a reason not to
17:28:37 <AutomatedTester> ack next
17:29:39 <AutomatedTester> jdescottes: when we added the subscription model we didn't consider the events too much because we were thinking about the unsubscription model. I can't talk for the security issues
17:29:41 <AutomatedTester> ack next
17:30:02 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: I think it's a good poiunt about unsub breaking encapsulation
17:30:46 <AutomatedTester> ... if we think things shouldn't share any state but that should be solved by the multiple sessions keeping things separate
17:31:07 <AutomatedTester> ... everything else depends on the client to enforce boundaries
17:32:07 <AutomatedTester> ... from this discussion it solves the use case we should do it
17:32:09 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:33:00 <AutomatedTester> topic: Autofill trigger
17:33:11 <AutomatedTester> github: https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/pull/706
17:33:44 <AutomatedTester> sadym: this is a PR from yoav. There are some misunderstandings and we need to discuss
17:34:10 <AutomatedTester> ... we only test the 3rd part which is filling in the data and it is the least contriversial part
17:34:34 <AutomatedTester> ... even with that I think that the PR from yoav makes sense and I think we should approve
17:34:40 <jgraham> q+
17:34:48 <AutomatedTester> yoav: thanks for summing it up properly and I will handle concerns
17:34:52 <AutomatedTester> ack next
17:35:49 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: I am not an expert on how data will get in and be stored
17:36:15 <AutomatedTester> ... I am curious what blaze has to say about this from webkit
17:36:37 <AutomatedTester> blaze: I am looking at the PR, I think we're very close
17:37:01 <AutomatedTester> ... the discussion we were having was around addresses and checkout
17:37:33 <AutomatedTester> ... if we are only solving it for that then it's fine, if it's logout etc then we need to discuss it further
17:38:04 <AutomatedTester> ... as long as we have the fields designed. I think the tests also need to be shown
17:38:22 <AutomatedTester> yoav: this can be scoped to addresses and then work from there
17:38:49 <AutomatedTester> ...beyond that we have a set of outdated wpt mocks that need revisiting
17:39:31 <AutomatedTester> ... if this lands in the spec I can see about landing this into chromium and making sure the wpt tests are updated
17:40:09 <sadym> Example of the test using trigger autofill API: https://github.com/yoavweiss/chromium-bidi/blob/1f4a9e9389597f99e0bde231b0506b11a03cc740/tests/autofill/test_autofill_trigger.py#L101
17:40:19 <sadym> q+
17:40:21 <AutomatedTester> ... this also goes with an event for autofill being redone
17:40:35 <AutomatedTester> ... this tells the browser when to redo the autofill
17:40:45 <AutomatedTester> ack next
17:41:18 <AutomatedTester> blaze: there is the classification vs putting this into the DOM.
17:41:48 <AutomatedTester> ... I think if we make sure the classication is done properly
17:42:28 <AutomatedTester> ... and if the browser doesn't get the classication right how do we know what needs fixing
17:42:43 <AutomatedTester> ... I am trying to understand waht is next
17:43:40 <AutomatedTester> ... I will look and if there are more tests that would be great
17:44:06 <AutomatedTester> sadym: there is a link to a test that uses pure bidi
17:44:16 <yoav> https://github.com/web-platform-tests/wpt/pull/44329
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17:44:26 <bburg> present+
17:44:36 <AutomatedTester> rrsagent, make minutes
17:44:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/12/10-webdriver-minutes.html AutomatedTester
17:45:09 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:45:13 <AutomatedTester> topic: Allow for specifying schema in "proxy"
17:45:23 <AutomatedTester> github: https://github.com/w3c/webdriver/pull/1922
17:45:46 <AutomatedTester> sadym: what is specified in the spec isn't what chromium does, chromium does a lot more
17:46:01 <AutomatedTester> ... I have reworked the proposal and it is backwards compatiable
17:46:10 <AutomatedTester> ... please look and consider this for merging
17:46:15 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:46:43 <AutomatedTester> topic: Enable and disable scripting via BiDi
17:46:53 <AutomatedTester> github: https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/11441
17:47:31 <AutomatedTester> sadym: we only have left this last bit that is in the html spec
17:47:42 <AutomatedTester> ... there are some reservations still
17:48:26 <sadym> sadym: https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/11874
17:48:32 <jdescottes> q+
17:48:50 <AutomatedTester> ... this is the best that we can do for now. Do we need full alignment or can we move forward?
17:48:53 <AutomatedTester> ack next
17:49:10 <jgraham> q+
17:49:21 <AutomatedTester> jdescottes: I can't answet the question but I will follow up with Simon tomorrow
17:49:34 <AutomatedTester> action: jdescottes to follow up on this
17:49:43 <AutomatedTester> ack next
17:50:44 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: it seems in the end it sets out the 3 scenarios. in 3rd scenarios if the page loads and disavles script...
17:51:07 <sadym> q+
17:51:09 <AutomatedTester> ... it says practical implementation can trump the theoretical purity
17:51:41 <AutomatedTester> ... if we have a page that has runs script and then disables script it might later run some script
17:52:07 <AutomatedTester> ... we should have a plan to align here for the fuutre
17:52:37 <AutomatedTester> .... my read is that Simon is that as long as everyone is happy we can move ahead here
17:52:44 <AutomatedTester> ack next
17:53:42 <AutomatedTester> sadym: practically speaking, if we can't reproduce it then we can continue doing with what we are doing
17:54:14 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: the other use case is weakmap finalisers
17:54:49 <AutomatedTester> ... this is a edge case but we need to say that we are ok with the code running
17:55:20 <AutomatedTester> sadym: in that case we have the same case and we restrict finalisers or we don't restrict them
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17:55:45 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: in practise disable script is an edge case and I doubt many people would try do this
17:56:05 <AutomatedTester> ... it's ok to say for the spec to say it should do it but it could be hard to implement
17:56:27 <AutomatedTester> ... and we say that if scripting is disabled that some script may still get run
17:56:32 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:56:55 <jgraham> RRSAgent: make minutes
17:56:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/12/10-webdriver-minutes.html jgraham
17:57:25 <AutomatedTester> topic: `emulation.setMaxTouchPoints` invokes legacy archived specification
17:57:34 <AutomatedTester> github: https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/pull/1042
17:57:51 <AutomatedTester> sadym: this is a step forward for mobile emulation, please can people review
17:58:54 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: pointer events does this and we shouldn't be referencing touch events is a not a good idea. I haven't read the PR
18:00:06 <AutomatedTester> ... if we are using legacy APIs we should suggest to people to use a non-legacy API for things
18:01:07 <jgraham> s/should suggest people use a non-legacy API for things/just have a non-normative note about what implementations implementing those nonstandard APIS might want to do, because all the behaviour here is nonstandard anyway/
18:01:32 <jgraham> RRSAgent: make minutes
18:01:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/12/10-webdriver-minutes.html jgraham
18:02:16 <jgraham> Zakim, bye
18:02:16 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been AutomatedTester, jimevans, jdescottes, tidoust, whimboo, orkon, jgraham, sasha, sadym, bburg
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18:02:34 <jgraham> RRSAgent: make minutes
18:02:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/12/10-webdriver-minutes.html jgraham
18:02:45 <jgraham> RRSAgent: bye
18:02:45 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in https://www.w3.org/2025/12/10-webdriver-actions.rdf :
18:02:45 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jdescottes to follow up on this [1]
18:02:45 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/12/10-webdriver-irc#T17-49-34
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