13:56:03 RRSAgent has joined #matf 13:56:07 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/12/10-matf-irc 13:56:07 RRSAgent, make logs Public 13:56:08 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ 13:56:09 Zakim, this is MATF 10 December 2025 13:56:09 got it, JJ 13:56:19 Meeting: MATF 10 December 2025 13:56:23 chair+ 13:56:30 regrets+ qbalsdon 13:56:44 regrest+ JulianK 13:56:53 regrets+ TimGravemaker 13:57:06 regrets+ JulianK 13:57:19 agenda+ Mobile operating systems 13:57:25 Virtual keyboard 13:57:28 agenda+ Virtual keyboard 13:57:35 agenda+ Cross-platform framework 13:59:33 agenda+ 1.4.4 Resize Text - WebViews 14:02:04 Tanya has joined #matf 14:03:28 tayef has joined #matf 14:03:28 Detlev has joined #matf 14:03:34 present+ 14:03:43 present+ 14:04:22 present+ 14:04:27 pauljadam has joined #matf 14:04:45 present+ 14:06:00 scribe: pauljadam 14:06:13 move to next agendum 14:06:13 agendum 1 -- Mobile operating systems -- taken up [from JJ] 14:06:21 https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/102 14:07:36 JJ: discussing the question about which operating systems are considered for this guidance 14:08:31 JJ: should we say specific operating systems like android and iOS or should it be broader, there was a suggestion to avoid specifying operating systems 14:09:04 JJ: we could mention specific operating systems in definitions relating to a11y support on that platform 14:09:24 JJ: may mention some specific behaviors of operating systems 14:10:07 rachaely has joined #matf 14:10:27 JJ: reading all the different types of mobile operating systems like android, iOS, iPadOS, chromeos, harmony, ubuntu touch, feature phones, windows, game devices? 14:10:35 present+ 14:10:54 JJ: our group has focused on mostly android, iOS, iPad os 14:11:16 JJ: discussions about potential wearables like watch os 14:11:34 https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/281 14:11:40 JJ: related issue linked above 14:12:31 JJ: question asking for clarification on specific range of devices, asking If we are covering watches, tablets, and non-traditional devices 14:13:12 JJ: mobile os needs to be defined, and we need to mention that our focus has been android iOS and iPad, and we have not considered certain type of mobile os 14:13:15 q+ 14:13:21 ack Tanya 14:14:23 https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict-22/#platform-software 14:14:26 Tanya: asking what should be included because when the MATF started, it's a question of phrasing we should add something general what is expected that we tried to apply this criteria on a broad range of OS but we focused on the 2 main OS android and iOS because they are most widely used 14:15:02 JJ: WCAG2ICT introduced the term platform software 14:15:39 JJ: reading examples of platforms, desktop, mobile, embedded, web browser, plugins 14:16:16 JJ: we might also need mobile operating system definition and have a note about what platform software we have considered in our guidance, platform software is used 57 times in the WCAG2ICT guidance 14:17:27 JJ: term operating system is used in the platform software example, used in Reflow, keyboard has reference to operating systems, in multiple ways, pointer cancellation, css pixels, applying to non web documents and software, we can reuse this platform software term 14:17:48 q+ 14:18:06 JJ: 2 people have raised the issue that it is not clear which devices or OS are considered in our guidance so we need to mention it somewhere in our document where people would read it to end the confusion 14:18:19 ack Joe_Humbert 14:18:24 JJ: need to figure out where to put the clarification 14:18:40 Joe_Humbert: put it in the introduction where that is the place it would be most read other than in the SC 14:19:00 Joe_Humbert: or include in into but not directly by including reference to platform software in the intro and linked 14:19:16 q+ 14:19:23 Joe_Humbert: wording "we focused on android and iOS but this guidance can apply to any mobile os that works like these and it primarily touch base" 14:19:32 q+ 14:19:40 Joe_Humbert: chrome os does not operate on phones and is not touch, it's desktop like chrome books likes steam os 14:19:58 Joe_Humbert: any operating system that supports touch input could complicate our guidance with too many to consider 14:20:50 JJ: Background, guidance in document section could be potential spot to put, or excluded from scope to list what we consider out of scope 14:21:02 ack Tanya 14:21:07 JJ: mention what is out of scope during our discussions but does not mean it does not apply to that os 14:21:59 Tanya: question about definition of SC, looking at WCAG3 some times because we are trying to make WCAG 2 more applicable to mobile apps, but WCAG 3 will be coming at some point and they will look at our work 14:22:22 Tanya: if we're looking into WCAG 3 they dont have a definition of platform software 14:22:43 Tanya: is it good to look at WCAG 3 to reference definitions there ? 14:22:49 q+ 14:22:50 https://w3c.github.io/wcag3/guidelines/#dfn-platform 14:23:35 JJ: WCAG 3 is tricky, now they have a platform definition, look at the future where WCAG 3 is heading, 14:23:43 JJ: they just call it platform 14:23:59 JJ: software or collection of layers of software which is vague 14:24:07 JJ: subject software is a new term 14:24:24 JJ: they do have 2 references to relying on operating system and example of one 14:24:31 ack rachaely 14:24:50 rachaely: like what Joe said about message that we focus on android and iOS and iPad os 14:25:00 rachaely: also TV operating system 14:25:30 rachaely: maybe make primary is the touch interface which differences between a TV ok that uses a remote control to operate 14:25:51 JJ: could mention forks of android like android TV or android Car might share same things to make it accessible 14:26:02 JJ: agree add that we focus on primary touch input 14:26:30 I wonder more about watch or if we just say all iOS guidance applies to Apple Watch too? 14:26:39 ack Detlev 14:27:22 Detlev: many of the terms like platform definitions will still be changing because its still an early working draft may things still under discussion with WCAG 3 so we should not really reference it, we can keep our definitions for now and then change later 14:27:49 JJ: what will happen to MATF in the future and WCAG 2 MOBILE 14:28:08 JJ: ideally in WCAG 3 it will be written so we dont need different guidance to apply to mobile 14:28:45 JJ: at TPAC they were evaluating what task forces need to be extended and did see the need to extend mobile a11y task force 14:28:58 JJ: more collaboration with us to give input on mobile part coming up 14:29:12 JJ: take 5 to 10 years to finish WCAG 3 14:29:28 JJ: and more years before it is law and more years before people actually use it, very far out 14:29:35 JJ: until then we use WCAG 2.2 14:29:56 JJ: we tell people how to interpret WCAG 2.2 and align as closely as possible to WCAG2ICT 14:30:47 JJ: put the in the introduction were we say what mobile os apply to our guidance 14:30:53 move to next agendum 14:30:53 agendum 2 -- Virtual keyboard -- taken up [from JJ] 14:31:06 🤪 14:31:08 github.com/w3c/matf/issues/91 14:31:43 JJ: WCAG2ICT virtual keyboard 14:32:50 JJ: on-screen keyboard full keyboard access android iOS, what is a virtual keyboard 14:33:16 JJ: can we use virtual keyboard definition or do we need to modify 14:33:33 https://w3c.github.io/wcag2ict/#dfn-keyboard-interface 14:33:33 JJ: keyboard interface definition can be confusing with virtual keyboard etc. 14:33:51 JJ: keyboard interface definition 14:34:15 JJ: note 2 references virtual keyboard definition 14:34:53 JJ: do we need to modify virtual keyboard def or can we just apply it as is 14:36:03 Poll: Keep virtual keyboard definition as is? 14:36:47 0 14:36:53 0 14:36:56 0 14:37:11 -1 14:37:22 0 14:38:03 Joe_Humbert: concerned about it saying any software that acts as keyboard is too vague 14:38:24 Joe_Humbert: very complex definition may be fine as is but concern its too broad 14:38:56 JJ: interesting they mention software but then say switches which is hardware 14:38:59 q+ 14:39:09 ack Detlev 14:39:43 Detlev: we do check that everything works with an external keybaord 14:39:55 Detlev: the note may give wrong signal that we dont need to support keyboard 14:40:09 Detlev: risk that people thing we only need virtual keyboard and not hardware keyboard 14:40:11 I agree 14:40:24 Note 2 in https://w3c.github.io/wcag2ict/#applying-keyboard-interface-to-non-web-documents-and-software 14:41:18 q+ 14:41:22 Detlev: their note may be about kiosk or moving a virtual mouse to use a virtual keyboard or using a hardware wheel thing might be their reason 14:41:35 ack Joe_Humbert 14:42:09 Joe_Humbert: might need to just remove because cant think of mobile os where we would not want to support keyboard interface, would be like switches 14:42:52 Joe_Humbert: for kiosks if there is no keyboard and if there is another mouse pointer if that's how there is input and there is no text input but for us there is always a need regardless of device to support a hardware keyboard or keyboard interface or virtual keyboard in some way 14:43:03 q+ 14:43:19 JJ: our target OS has a11y layer or a11y events so our guidance may be different 14:43:46 JJ: making note about directly su port a keybaord 14:44:08 note 2 of keyboard interface is copied from note 4 for 2.1.1 - https://w3c.github.io/wcag2ict/#applying-sc-2-1-1-keyboard-to-non-web-software 14:44:13 I agree we need to emphasize that keyboard requires hardware keyboard support or devices like switch etc. 14:44:35 Detlev: get clarity on optional virtual keyboard, dont think virtual keyboard can meet keyboard SC 14:44:40 Detlev: because you operate it with touch 14:44:53 Detlev: we need keyboard keyboard interface and virtual keyboard is out side of that 14:45:02 I agree virtual keyboard is not hardware keyboard 14:45:39 Detlev: make sure people can't pass by only having an on screen keyboard need to be clear they need hardware keybard 14:45:59 JJ: making action about this 14:46:13 ACTION: Check if we can remove note 2 from keyboard interface? Do we need virtual keyboard at all? 14:46:36 move to next agendum 14:46:36 I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, JJ 14:46:41 q? 14:46:46 ack Detlev 14:46:51 move to next agendum 14:46:51 agendum 3 -- Cross-platform framework -- taken up [from JJ] 14:47:04 https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/84 14:47:28 JJ: need definition for cross platform framework 14:47:35 JJ: mostly for exceptions 14:47:57 JJ: clarify things for layers where developers write layer of code, flutter, flutter then makes iOS or Android app 14:48:15 JJ: responsibility for defect but in cross platform framework is that acceptable in audit 14:48:24 JJ: who gets a pass dev or no or what 14:49:07 JJ: is it platform software os framework layer above that might not support and who is responsible here for the defect basically 14:49:30 JJ: end users would not be able to use feature because of decision to use cross platform 14:49:47 JJ: this is about one code base that renders across different platforms to a native app 14:50:28 JJ: flutter might draw all UI elements, others might render native components, both creat ea native app, also compose multi platform etc. some make