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15:49:11 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, this will be pmwg-a11y
15:49:11 <Zakim> ok, AvneeshSingh
15:49:21 <AvneeshSingh> present+
15:49:30 <AvneeshSingh> chair: AvneeshSingh
15:50:00 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ What are short term goals for FXL accessibility which can have high impact?
15:50:16 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Longer term plan for improving FXL accessibility.
15:50:34 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Explainer document for establishing the need for semantics for extended descriptions
15:50:51 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Any other business.
15:51:03 <DaleRogers> present+
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16:03:10 <CharlesL1> present+
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16:03:22 <CharlesL1> scribe+
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16:03:38 <Laura> Present+
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16:03:51 <SimonM> Present+
16:04:21 <CharlesL1> AvneeshSingh: Background FixedLayout milestone.  How to bridge both TF's this Document for challenges and solutions is ready.
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16:04:42 <CharlesL1> ... merge the TFs so we can work on these issues together.
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16:05:02 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, next agendum
16:05:02 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- What are short term goals for FXL accessibility which can have high impact? -- taken up [from AvneeshSingh]
16:05:05 <wendyreid> present+
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16:06:09 <CharlesL1> [Introductions]
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16:10:38 <wendyreid> q+
16:10:48 <CharlesL1> AvneeshSingh: short-term what is highest impact activity to improve lives with disabilities with Fixed layouts
16:10:54 <CharlesL1> ack wendyreid
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16:11:32 <CharlesL1> wendyreid: 2 docs, "Recommendations" and the other is a Techniques which is incomplete.  question: how do we do this...
16:12:29 <CharlesL1> ... can be easy but others very difficult.  Complex fixed layout, types of fixed layout content, some is relatively simple and can be made accessible, but the more complex it is the harder to make accessible.
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16:12:57 <CharlesL1> ... Like Manga, Comics, really illustrated text books what does a11y mean?
16:13:37 <CharlesL1> ... we don't know, speech bubble detection, etc. Content that transforms reflow/fixed systems that can do this for you potentially.
16:14:12 <CharlesL1> ... parralization of content, different languages, navigation etc.
16:14:21 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:14:29 <CharlesL1> ... we are on the bleeding edge is some cases.
16:14:45 <George> q+
16:15:26 <CharlesL1> AvneeshSingh: Some things are promising but others require incubation.  some can be handled in short term. impact on end users. divide 2 buckets.  low hanging fruits in 1-2 years and other >2 years provide more better solutions.
16:15:35 <CharlesL1> ... what are our ideas for short term?
16:15:40 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
16:15:42 <CircularKen> q+
16:16:05 <CharlesL1> George: 2 documents one that finished is a WG Note. Is that APA had comments / questions on?
16:16:20 <CharlesL1> wendyreid: Yes and we addressed those. and APA has signed off on.
16:16:32 <wendyreid> https://www.w3.org/TR/epub-fxl-a11y/
16:16:34 <DaleRogers> q+
16:16:34 <CharlesL1> George: techniques is still in draft....ok
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16:16:49 <wendyreid> https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/wg-notes/fxl-a11y-tech/
16:16:51 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
16:17:15 <CharlesL1> CircularKen: short term: 2 top, image description, for larger images describe parts, regions etc. is possible.
16:17:17 <CharlesL1> q+
16:18:08 <CharlesL1> ... reading order is harder, but necessary to understand the content. different tools to apply reading order but without text in correct order is as important as the text from image descriptions.
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16:19:02 <CharlesL1> AvneeshSingh: reading order text on screen and there are workarounds and there is text behind the scene that is in the order but maybe not match exactly in the visible text. do we need to worry about the wcag issue where these should match?
16:19:45 <CharlesL1> CircularKen: for fixed layout you can have 50 items on one spread and its that order which might be scatterd around the page. that is the challenge.
16:19:56 <CharlesL1> wendyreid: Visual vs. logical reading order
16:20:09 <CharlesL1> ... in note we say to follow the WCAG definition.
16:20:32 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:21:10 <CharlesL1> Laura: flow chart or you are able to describe parts of a complex image, it may go in a order but not be visually in the same order, so how to indicate paths of reading order that is something that is very important.
16:21:13 <gpellegrino> q+
16:21:25 <CharlesL1> ... visually you can choose which way to go.
16:22:01 <CharlesL1> CircularKen: its a design and editorial decision. some publishers do this on purpose and then someone needs to decide.
16:22:26 <CharlesL1> AvneeshSingh: serial reading order may be different than visual perception.
16:22:28 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
16:23:10 <CharlesL1> DaleRogers: author I can choose which order to read, but the audience might not interpret the page in the same way.  Equity vs. Equality.
16:24:01 <CharlesL1> ... different media, printed page, animation, then audio file, / ALS, to make content more accessible.
16:25:00 <CharlesL1> ... publisher POV not sure if you can put all of that into an inexpensive EPUB.  I would like to hear what is accessible and what legal requirements do we need to have EU / Title II requirements what are the must haves.
16:25:25 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
16:25:28 <wendyreid> scribe+
16:25:56 <wendyreid> CharlesL1: For image descriptions, we may need to define what is the text on the screen vs what is a description of the interactions, the background, what is happening
16:26:16 <wendyreid> ... for SR users vs someone using TTS when sighted, they have different needs
16:26:25 <wendyreid> ... may want descriptions being spoken, may not
16:26:34 <wendyreid> ... personalization
16:26:48 <wendyreid> ... if the text is not live, part of the image, how do you differentiate them
16:26:57 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
16:27:29 <gpellegrino> https://www.w3.org/TR/epub-a11y-eaa-mapping/
16:27:31 <wendyreid> q+
16:27:34 <CharlesL1> gpellegrino: having an accessible fixed layout we have epub 1.1 and WCAG 2.2 and the mapping and the EU requriments
16:28:15 <CharlesL1> we have ARIA and EPUB 3.3, maybe what is missing is to have best practice on how to comply with specific WCAG requirements from a fixed layout POV.
16:28:35 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:28:35 <CharlesL1> ... we don't have to define new things for low hanging fruit just how to use these technologies.
16:28:48 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
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16:29:23 <Laura> I have to drop for another meeting. Thank you all. Meet you again next time! But just in response to the comment about the philosophical question of what is accessible: letting people navigate in multiple ways through a layout that is non-linear feels very important. And I also like Charles’s point about differentiating between what is text that
16:29:23 <Laura> is on the screen vs. what is an explanation of what is on the screen; which not only applies to images but also to video and complex interactives and even just the layout of a fixed layout bit of content.
16:29:38 <CharlesL1> wendyreid: next thing to do to have most impact is to finish the Techniques, but we were going very broad. Here are some essential fixed layout practices, putting alt text, context order is clear.
16:30:34 <CharlesL1> Reading order of the pages do not have content across spreads, if you have a 2 page spread where you must bounce between both pages so notes to say "don't do this".
16:31:07 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:31:13 <CharlesL1> ... here is the basics and in the background we can work on the more complex images, sound effects vs real text in comics for example.
16:31:28 <CharlesL1> ... some of these may not even exist in WCAG.
16:31:35 <SimonM> Q+
16:32:20 <CircularKen> q+
16:32:20 <CharlesL1> AvneeshSingh: question what are the main topics we should handle first, logical RO, alt text, etc.
16:32:28 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
16:33:26 <CharlesL1> Simon: legislation does not give technical requirements. this is slightly difficult to achieve.
16:33:45 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:34:07 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
16:34:12 <CharlesL1> AvneeshSingh: make it clear when writing the best practices that this is not guaranty compliance with EAA for example.
16:34:29 <George> q+
16:34:46 <CharlesL1> CircularKen: semantic tags for headings, lists etc. they are useful/supported fundamental to put structure, page lists and landmarks.
16:35:14 <gpellegrino> q+
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16:35:46 <CharlesL1> ... publishers using leading software can't do it currently and a lot of manual effort is still needed.
16:36:41 <CharlesL1> AvneeshSingh: best practices is the way to do this as its not a recommendation / standards. tools may not follow now but in 2-3 years they will start.
16:37:01 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:37:01 <CharlesL1> ... market forces does work. slowly these will come.
16:37:12 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
16:37:50 <CharlesL1> George: when we have Bestpractices / techniques then we can look at authoring tools and provide a path for those tools to use the techniques to comply.
16:39:32 <CharlesL1> ... I am interested in Reading order with Screen Reader or Read Aloud. We can't get the screen reader to make it accessible but Read Aloud will present it in the correct reading Order.  I would accept that. But what about low-vision. the Req. in WCAG is that you dont pan from left/right in order to read the content and why reflow is so good. But is the giant barrier for LV folks?
16:39:38 <CharlesL1> q+
16:40:06 <CharlesL1> ... lots now use 3X reading glasses. is that idea of panning an accessible workaround.
16:40:16 <CharlesL1> AvneeshSingh: that is a AA req.
16:40:20 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
16:41:49 <CharlesL1> gpellegrino: about authoring tools, w3c we don't mention authoring tools and all these best practices etc. don't mention these tools. techniques we tell how to make it by code and the community knew it wasn't possible with certain tools and they eventually will fix these issues.
16:41:58 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
16:42:26 <DaleRogers> q+
16:42:33 <wendyreid> CharlesL1: For the LV piece George mentioned, there are exceptions right now like complex tables that require vertical and horizontal scrolling, because it's not possible to reflow without breaking
16:42:46 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:42:50 <wendyreid> q+
16:42:56 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
16:43:50 <CharlesL1> DaleRogers: we always req. high contrast so anyone looking at our work could see the differences but dep. on the art work you may not want high contrast because thats part of the story.
16:44:10 <CharlesL1> ... there is a technical thing and a story telling which can be in conflict.
16:44:15 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
16:44:19 <wendyreid> https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/wg-notes/fxl-a11y-tech/
16:44:29 <CharlesL1> wendyreid: I would encourage everyone to review this tech. document.
16:46:01 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:46:05 <CharlesL1> ... content a11y programmatic techniques (RO, images, Navigation, tables, interactivity) and Content Accessibility Visual: Color contrast, textual hierarchy font selection etc. and a section on A11y Metadata. Please read and flag issues using Github issues. and flag anything too complex to include in a basic best practices doc.
16:46:36 <CircularKen> q+
16:46:38 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:46:43 <CharlesL1> AvneeshSingh: thats everyone's homework.  Anyone want to take on a specific section?
16:46:51 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
16:47:12 <CharlesL1> CircularKen: when Gorge mentioned Read Aloud / Screen readers and perhaps Media overlays would have a different order?
16:48:12 <CharlesL1> George: PAAG call and Affinity was using Read Aloud reading a comic which was great. If I could get that same results with my Screen Reader, but what I got was pretty good but if Read Aloud and is following the same path as a Screen Reader that is fine.
16:48:58 <CharlesL1> AvneeshSingh: Screen Reader used with folks with visual disability, and Read Aloud used by a different user group, dyslexic user may not want to hear the image descriptions.
16:49:10 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:49:16 <CharlesL1> George: should be an option to turn on/off the alt text.
16:49:26 <CharlesL1> CircularKen: order of text? same?
16:49:59 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:50:20 <CharlesL1> wendyreid: a screen reader and TTS tools should parse the text the same but with a Screen reader has a lot more control, navigation tools etc. but most TTS don't give you any control just block level, no idea its a heading etc.
16:51:03 <CharlesL1> CircularKen: it is possible to not follow the DOM order depending on how the SMIL files are sequence.
16:51:48 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:51:49 <CharlesL1> Simon_M: TTS in a RS or MO are not specifically disability features. you might not be able to switch on the voices inbuilt audio voices for example.
16:51:57 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, next agendum
16:51:57 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Longer term plan for improving FXL accessibility. -- taken up [from AvneeshSingh]
16:52:31 <gpellegrino> q+
16:52:35 <CharlesL1> AvneeshSingh: dream for the A11y of Fixed Layout what are the most promising with recent discussions?
16:52:37 <wendyreid> q+
16:52:42 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
16:53:15 <CharlesL1> gpellegrino: sync reflowable / FL some publishers in Europe are starting to do this. user can see side by side.
16:53:35 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
16:53:36 <CharlesL1> ... without any standardization so each publisher does it differently.
16:54:09 <CharlesL1> ... RS looking at a FL and turn it into a Reflowable document if its structured very well.
16:54:50 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:55:02 <CharlesL1> ... it should be relatively easy to do this. a lot of RS can't do this because how they do FL completely separate than Reflow.  We need to define the expectations.
16:55:39 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:55:43 <DaleRogers> q+
16:55:43 <CircularKen> George the read aloud story extract (Harry Potter) you heard was Azure TTS in Colibrio Reader from an InDesign with region descriptions and reading order added and exported to FXL EPUB with CircularFLO
16:55:49 <CharlesL1> ... most promising parallelized content. If we can combine it and navigate through it would be huge.
16:56:13 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
16:57:16 <CharlesL1> DaleRogers: I have the first chapter the comic, the next poem is in Reflow. its a reinterpretation of the content. I am experimenting with AI. if it could take and EPUB and could do that interpretation for us.
16:57:48 <CharlesL1> ... wondering if the future might be AI to help us here.
16:58:28 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, next agendum
16:58:28 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Explainer document for establishing the need for semantics for extended descriptions -- taken up [from AvneeshSingh]
16:58:35 <CharlesL1> AvneeshSingh: You can really do this to some degree with giving Gemini or chatGPT the EPUB then ask questions.
16:59:11 <CharlesL1> AvneeshSingh: we have this explainer we are working on.
16:59:17 <AvneeshSingh> https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y-extended-desc/pull/1
16:59:58 <CharlesL1> ... once this gets to first working draft we will ask for feedback
17:00:51 <CharlesL1> rrsagent, make logs public
17:00:58 <AvneeshSingh> rrsagent, make minutes
17:00:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/12/04-pmwg-a11y-minutes.html AvneeshSingh
17:01:09 <AvneeshSingh> rrsagent, make logs public
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17:02:14 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, leave
17:02:14 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been AvneeshSingh, DaleRogers, gpellegrino, CharlesL, mgarrish, CircularKen, Laura, SimonM, wendyreid
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22:31:19 <muntxi> Hi! Looks like I managed to configure irssi to join this channel.