17:59:03 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:59:07 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/12/04-aria-irc
17:59:07 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:59:08 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA WG
17:59:46 <jamesn> adendabot, find agenda
17:59:53 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
17:59:53 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
17:59:53 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2784af88-4e09-430b-b8e2-8ba998096abc/20251204T130000/
17:59:53 <agendabot> clear agenda
17:59:53 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/4m4c9c9c
17:59:54 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://github.com/search?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created:%3E=2025-10-30+repo:w3c/aria&type=Issues
17:59:57 <agendabot> agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y
18:00:18 <Adam_Page> Adam_Page has joined #aria
18:00:27 <spectranaut_> spectranaut_ has joined #aria
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18:01:57 <pkra> present+
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18:02:38 <sarah> present+
18:02:48 <jamesn> chair+
18:03:06 <Adam_Page> scribe: Adam_Page
18:03:10 <katez> katez has joined #aria
18:03:11 <Adam_Page> zakim, start meeting
18:03:11 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
18:03:13 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA WG
18:03:15 <katez> present+
18:03:15 <cyns> cyns has joined #aria
18:03:23 <Jacques> present+
18:03:25 <Adam_Page> present+
18:03:26 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:03:26 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/4m4c9c9c -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:03:36 <filippo-zorzi> filippo-zorzi has joined #aria
18:04:11 <Daniel> present+
18:04:13 <Adam_Page> jamesn: new issues
18:04:18 <filippo-zorzi> present+
18:04:28 <Adam_Page> ... aria#2691
18:04:38 <Adam_Page> ... synthetic triggering of aria-actions
18:04:45 <Adam_Page> ... need agenda for next week
18:05:35 <scott> scott has joined #aria
18:05:45 <scott> present+
18:05:50 <Adam_Page> ... aria#2689
18:05:58 <Adam_Page> ... aria-placeholder with combobox role
18:06:12 <Priti> Priti has joined #Aria
18:06:26 <Adam_Page> ... agree with scott’s response
18:06:46 <Adam_Page> ... any more discussion, or PR?
18:06:54 <Adam_Page> scott: PR
18:07:01 <Adam_Page> jamesn: who’d like to take assignment?
18:07:27 <Adam_Page> ... will see if Mario would like to take it
18:07:32 <Adam_Page> ... and tag it `good first issue`
18:08:17 <Adam_Page> Daniel: we have something like this in our product
18:08:35 <Adam_Page> ... neither JAWS nor NVDA can read
18:08:35 <Adam_Page> ... looked into ARIA spec and found that placeholder’s not supported on combobox role
18:08:35 <Adam_Page> ... we think it should be
18:08:37 <sarah> q+
18:08:39 <Adam_Page> ... for editable comboboxes
18:08:48 <Adam_Page> ... wanted to bring to the group for opinions
18:08:56 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: you tried it, and SRs don’t support?
18:09:04 <Adam_Page> Daniel: yes, and that agrees with the spec
18:09:05 <sarah> ack me
18:09:14 <Adam_Page> Bryan: I’d support adding that
18:09:44 <Adam_Page> jamesn: sounds like something we could do a PR, but would need to check with AT for support — but if browsers exposed it, maybe it’d come for free
18:09:54 <Adam_Page> ... but a good first step would be a PR
18:09:55 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: agree
18:10:34 <Adam_Page> Bryan: it does work on an input element with a combobox role
18:10:35 <Adam_Page> ... placeholder does; not sure about aria-placeholder
18:10:52 <Adam_Page> Daniel: our tests show it doesn’t work
18:11:11 <Adam_Page> ... Mario can do the PR
18:11:25 <Adam_Page> jamesn: not urgent
18:11:34 <Adam_Page> ... PR’s a good start, then we can discuss
18:11:42 <Adam_Page> ... aria#2686
18:11:54 <giacomo-petri> present+
18:12:07 <Adam_Page> ... should this be agenda’d?
18:12:16 <Adam_Page> cyns: there’s another similar issue
18:12:35 <Adam_Page> jamesn: isn’t the other one more about whether these can be read by testing tools
18:12:36 <Adam_Page> ... this is not quite the same
18:13:03 <Adam_Page> giacomo-petri: we are differentiating implicit vs explicit now
18:13:12 <Adam_Page> ... not really clear if a role set by elementInternals is implicit or explicit
18:13:20 <Adam_Page> jamesn: my opinion is that it’s explicit
18:13:25 <Adam_Page> ... but should have more discussion about implications
18:13:31 <Adam_Page> scott: I agree
18:13:43 <Adam_Page> ... a custom element doesn’t have an implicit role
18:13:54 <Adam_Page> giacomo-petri: okay
18:14:07 <Adam_Page> ... we also need to define if we set role by attribute which one takes precedence
18:14:35 <Adam_Page> jamesn: this isn’t specific to roles though, right?
18:14:35 <Adam_Page> giacomo-petri: correct
18:14:44 <Adam_Page> jamesn: it’s a broader elementInternals issue, should be defined in that spec
18:14:46 <Adam_Page> ... not an ARIA question
18:14:55 <Adam_Page> giacomo-petri: yes, that’s true
18:15:10 <Adam_Page> scott: last I recall, ARIA is supposed to take precedence
18:15:19 <Adam_Page> ... for overrides
18:15:25 <Adam_Page> ... but is that documented anywhere? not sure
18:15:29 <Adam_Page> ... needs to be tracked down
18:16:34 <Adam_Page> jamesn: is that true for any attribute?
18:16:34 <Adam_Page> scott: not sure
18:17:12 <Adam_Page> sarah: my general understanding is that all attributes could override elementInternals, but not certain
18:17:23 <Adam_Page> jamesn: can anyone sign up to investigate this?
18:17:24 <LucasRadaelli> LucasRadaelli has joined #aria
18:17:38 <Adam_Page> scott: I will reach out and do some spec spelunking
18:17:45 <Adam_Page> jamesn: thanks, I’ve assigned you
18:17:49 <Adam_Page> ... aria#2685
18:18:05 <spectranaut_> q+
18:18:12 <LucasRadaelli> question to other screen reader users: joined the meeting via zoom web, and NVDA seems to be blocked on a dialog and I can't interact with the screen (to turn on mic for example), has anyone ever seen this?
18:18:35 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: I think yes to this issue’s question
18:18:35 <Adam_Page> ... giacomo-petri, would you like to make a spec change?
18:18:35 <Adam_Page> jamesn: would that be a new section?
18:18:39 <Adam_Page> ... or just put in prose for the few things that require it?
18:18:55 <Adam_Page> giacomo-petri: I think a section and then a row for each role
18:19:19 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: I think that’s largely editorial
18:19:29 <Adam_Page> jamesn: are there any others that need this?
18:19:41 <Adam_Page> giacomo-petri: maybe
18:19:50 <Adam_Page> jamesn: a tree probably requires a treeitem for example
18:19:55 <Adam_Page> giacomo-petri: I’ll take assignment
18:20:04 <Adam_Page> jamesn: ... aria#2683
18:20:09 <Adam_Page> pkra: no need to discuss
18:20:35 <Adam_Page> jamesn: ... aria#2679
18:20:35 <Adam_Page> ... no need to talk about
18:20:35 <Adam_Page> ... aria#2676
18:20:43 <Adam_Page> ... from jcraig
18:20:59 <Adam_Page> jcraig: think we should keep listed attributes since they’re deprecated
18:21:10 <Adam_Page> pkra: I’ll take this editorial task
18:21:22 <Adam_Page> jamesn: aria#2674
18:21:27 <Adam_Page> jcraig: I have a PR for this one
18:21:44 <Adam_Page> jamesn: aria#2672
18:21:50 <Adam_Page> ... should role=
18:21:59 <Adam_Page> ... "menu" be an allowed child of menubar?
18:22:03 <Adam_Page> ... I think yes
18:22:35 <Adam_Page> scott: some of the effort in open UI to specify menubar element was trying to work around this apparent oversight
18:22:48 <Adam_Page> ... I’ll start a PR
18:22:57 <Adam_Page> jamesn: aria#594
18:23:05 <Adam_Page> ... aria-current and scrolling
18:23:10 <Adam_Page> ... came up in WG
18:23:32 <Adam_Page> ... would this be for CSS-AAM?
18:23:35 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: I think yes
18:23:42 <Adam_Page> jamesn: I’ll move it there
18:24:14 <Adam_Page> ... aria#2671
18:24:34 <Adam_Page> pkra: talked about it at editor’s meeting
18:24:37 <Adam_Page> jamesn: aria#2669
18:24:45 <Adam_Page> ... we already talked about this?
18:24:50 <Adam_Page> ... yes, assigned it already
18:24:59 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:24:59 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Adam_Page
18:25:06 <jamesn> q?
18:25:13 <jamesn> ack spectranaut_
18:25:18 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:25:18 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://github.com/search?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created:%3E=2025-10-30+repo:w3c/aria&type=Issues -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:25:24 <Adam_Page> jamesn: new PRs
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18:26:03 <Adam_Page> ... aria#2690
18:26:07 <Adam_Page> ... from scott
18:26:55 <Adam_Page> scott: when I did the work on this back in 2500, I asked reviewers if the new requirements should be repeated
18:27:03 <Adam_Page> ... so got back to this and made this PR
18:27:13 <Adam_Page> jamesn: I’ll review, and any other reviewers?
18:27:20 <Adam_Page> Bryan: I’ll review
18:27:32 <Adam_Page> Adam_Page: I’ll review
18:27:44 <Adam_Page> jamesn: aria#2688
18:28:10 <Adam_Page> Daniel: I’ll take care of these PDF ones
18:28:35 <Adam_Page> jamesn: aria#2682
18:28:35 <Adam_Page> ... Android mappings!
18:28:35 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: I’ll review all of them
18:28:36 <Adam_Page> jamesn: any other good reviewers?
18:28:36 <Adam_Page> cyns: I will
18:28:39 <LucasRadaelli> I also would like to review
18:28:46 <LucasRadaelli> I  can't turn on my mic, sorry
18:29:08 <LucasRadaelli> lucasradaelli@gmail.com
18:29:14 <LucasRadaelli> or just lucasradaelli
18:29:27 <LucasRadaelli> I think val added me?
18:29:44 <LucasRadaelli> I can't speak, sorry -- can't interact with the zoom window for some reason!
18:31:17 <Adam_Page> jamesn: have also added LucasRadaelli as a reviewer
18:31:34 <Adam_Page> ... I’ll add the same reviewers for all the Android PRs
18:32:35 <Adam_Page> jamesn: aria#2677
18:32:44 <Adam_Page> jcraig: thanks to scott for reviewing
18:33:11 <Adam_Page> ... marquees and timers were specifically the main use case for aria-live="off"
18:33:22 <Adam_Page> ... you’d get announcements, but only when you land focus on the elements
18:33:33 <Adam_Page> ... so there were some implementation differences
18:33:51 <Adam_Page> ... but due to progress of browsers currently, none of them support any announcements for aria-live="off"
18:33:55 <Adam_Page> ... and it’s wise that they don’t
18:34:05 <Adam_Page> ... because there’d be a weird distinction
18:34:12 <Adam_Page> ... so currently we have alignment
18:34:16 <Adam_Page> ... everything but Orca
18:34:35 <Adam_Page> ... basically the fix for this is that marquee and timer should just not be listed as live regions
18:34:44 <Adam_Page> ... because aria-live="off" is their default value, which means they do nothing; effectively *not* live regions
18:34:58 <jamesn> q+
18:34:59 <Adam_Page> ... this is a case where we found alignment and should fix the spec instead
18:35:14 <Adam_Page> jamesn: so there is absolutely no difference in behavior?
18:35:26 <Adam_Page> ... so aria-live="off" doesn’t do something special when the thing has focus?
18:35:41 <jamesn> ack me
18:35:54 <Adam_Page> jcraig: we tested multiple WIndows screen readers and VO, Firefox, Chrome, Edge
18:36:03 <scott> q+
18:36:09 <Adam_Page> ... Webkit on Mac, etc., and found that no SR or browser combo supported any announcements
18:36:34 <Adam_Page> ... whether for marquee, timer, or aria-live="off" on any element
18:36:34 <Adam_Page> ... that said I think we should keep the role
18:36:38 <jamesn> ack scott
18:36:49 <Adam_Page> scott: when I did the review of this, I also did some testing and got similar results
18:36:56 <Adam_Page> ... I do recall this working in the distant past
18:37:13 <Adam_Page> jcraig: me too
18:37:21 <Adam_Page> .. but now, nobody does it
18:37:32 <Adam_Page> jamesn: could it actually be useful though?
18:37:38 <Adam_Page> ... or has the market decided it’s not important?
18:37:47 <Daniel> q+
18:37:48 <Adam_Page> jcraig: the latter, and also it’s confusing, and ariaNotify is coming
18:37:50 <Adam_Page> q+
18:38:02 <jamesn> ack Daniel
18:38:06 <Adam_Page> Daniel: I think someone put an example of a timer in the issue
18:38:35 <Adam_Page> ... SR didn’t, but braille did
18:38:35 <Adam_Page> jcraig: interesting
18:38:43 <Adam_Page> ... please comment to say the tech stack for that, Daniel
18:39:42 <jamesn> ack Adam_Page
18:40:35 <Adam_Page> jamesn: we have a CSS-AAM stub, no need to review
18:40:39 <Adam_Page> ... aria#2670
18:40:51 <Adam_Page> scott: made the issue prior to TPAC
18:40:58 <Daniel> ack me
18:41:20 <Adam_Page> ... and now made this PR to follow up
18:41:31 <Adam_Page> ... reviews welcome
18:41:47 <Adam_Page> ... if you think that tooltip should not be named
18:42:05 <Adam_Page> jamesn: I’ll review
18:42:08 <Adam_Page> Adam_Page: me too
18:42:14 <Adam_Page> sarah: me three
18:42:35 <Adam_Page> jamesn: does anyone like tooltips?
18:42:35 <Adam_Page> ... <crickets>
18:42:37 <Adam_Page> ... 3 reviewers, perfect
18:42:58 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:42:58 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:43:23 <Adam_Page> jamesn: jcraig, anything we need to look at?
18:43:50 <Adam_Page> jcraig: #56417 — haven’t reviewed this one yet
18:44:03 <Adam_Page> ... just a yaml change, shouldn’t be relevant to this group
18:44:12 <Adam_Page> ... haven’t seen an update since Oct 30
18:44:35 <Adam_Page> ... #55784 I have reviewed
18:44:35 <Adam_Page> ... and if anyone’s interested, please check this out
18:44:39 <Adam_Page> ... additional reviews welcome
18:44:49 <Adam_Page> ... actually, @LucasRadaelli, would love to have your perspective
18:45:04 <LucasRadaelli> do I need to do anything to be added?
18:45:11 <Adam_Page> ... I’ll get him added to the WPT project
18:45:14 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:45:14 <Zakim> I do not see any more non-closed or non-skipped agenda items, Adam_Page
18:45:19 <Francis_Storr> present+
18:46:09 <Adam_Page> zakim, end meeting
18:46:09 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been pkra, sarah, katez, Jacques, Adam_Page, Daniel, filippo-zorzi, scott, giacomo-petri, Francis_Storr
18:46:11 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
18:46:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/12/04-aria-minutes.html Zakim
18:46:20 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Adam_Page; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
18:46:20 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria