13:56:41 RRSAgent has joined #matf 13:56:45 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/12/03-matf-irc 13:56:45 RRSAgent, make logs Public 13:56:46 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ 13:56:50 Joe_Humbert has joined #matf 13:56:50 Zakim, this is MATF 3 December 2025 13:56:51 got it, JJ 13:56:58 Meeting: MATF 3 December 2025 13:57:03 chair+ 13:57:17 agenda+ Updates to EN 301 549 v4 and WCAG2ICT 13:57:22 agenda+ User Agent 13:57:26 agenda+ Set of (Web)pages 13:57:31 agenda+ Underlaying layer 13:57:35 agenda+ Mobile operating systems 13:57:39 agenda+ Virtual keyboard 13:57:44 agenda+ Cross-platform framework 14:01:16 regrets+ qbalsdon 14:02:12 Tanya has joined #matf 14:02:20 present+ 14:03:52 move to next agendum 14:03:52 agendum 1 -- Updates to EN 301 549 v4 and WCAG2ICT -- taken up [from JJ] 14:04:26 Zakim nominate a scribe 14:04:28 nominate a scribe 14:04:41 Zakim, nominate a scribe 14:04:41 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Tanya 14:04:49 pauljadam has joined #matf 14:04:54 scribe: Tanya 14:06:01 present+ 14:06:08 julianmka has joined #matf 14:06:13 https://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_en/301500_301599/301549/04.01.00_20/en_301549v040100ev.pdf 14:06:19 https://services.w3.org/htmldiff?doc1=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2Fwcag2ict-22%2F&doc2=https%3A%2F%2Fw3c.github.io%2Fwcag2ict%2F 14:06:21 Detlev has joined #matf 14:06:36 present+ 14:07:39 present+ 14:07:51 present+ 14:08:13 q+ 14:08:28 ack @hdv 14:08:32 ack hdv 14:08:40 JJ: Summarises the status of the v4.1.0 EN standard and WCAG2ICT. As a group, we probably need to check whether our guidance should be aligned. 14:09:35 Carol has joined #MATF 14:09:41 present+ 14:09:52 Tim has joined #matf 14:11:41 q+ 14:12:27 move to next agendum 14:12:27 I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, JJ 14:12:28 q+ to mention new TAG document on web user agents https://www.w3.org/TR/2025/DNOTE-web-user-agents-20251127/ 14:12:35 ack Joe_Humbert 14:12:39 ack hdv 14:12:39 hdv, you wanted to mention new TAG document on web user agents https://www.w3.org/TR/2025/DNOTE-web-user-agents-20251127/ 14:12:42 move to next agendum 14:12:42 agendum 2 -- User Agent -- taken up [from JJ] 14:12:42 JJ: Summarises the previous work and the status of WebView, and emphasises the complexity for mobile apps. 14:12:50 q+ hdv 14:14:14 is they because they have more exceptions for apps vs web pages? 14:14:16 Joe_Humbert: Confused about why a WebView embedded in the app does not meet the definition of a web page, even though it is still a web page. 14:14:29 We always audited web views under the app audit acc. to clause 11 14:15:23 I've always audited web views and apps under same WCAG SCs, I just would do things like not apply Parsing to apps but yes apply parsing to web views, but parsing is obsolete now 🤷‍♂️ 14:17:12 hdv: Summarises that the Technical Architecture Board of W3C published a document on the User Agent, which we might want to review. A more philosophical perspective. 14:17:50 Tanya: explains reasoning behind comment https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/63#issuecomment-3532233105 14:22:23 JJ: How should we move forward - the “user agent” concept that only applies to web content, or the broader definition that also includes operating systems, web browsers etc 14:22:27 q+ 14:22:30 q+ 14:22:34 ack hdv 14:22:38 ack pauljadam 14:22:45 q- 14:23:33 q+ 14:23:43 ack Joe_Humbert 14:24:51 pauljadam: Trying to understand why EU legislation seems to lean towards applying the User Agent concept only to HTML content. 14:26:41 But it says somewhere that what the user agent is for web, is the patform (OS) for native apps. 14:26:43 Joe_Humbert: UA discussion is closely related to discussion of exceptions, like "except when it is determined by teh UA.." and a couple of other examples (e.g. 2.5.1) 14:27:31 ACTION: If user agent is only applied to web content, consider extending success criteria exception clauses with a term that covers native operating system components / behavior 14:27:44 If an app is not a user agent and user agents only view HTML and WCAG only applies to web then folks may say that WCAG does not apply to apps and that apps need their own separate guidelines. I prefer to say that apps are web and WCAG does apply to apps and users don't know the difference between an app view or a web view. 14:30:18 Detlev: Our line is that when something might fall under “determined by the user agent,” it should rather be interpreted as "determined by the underlying layer or software" and be considered as an exception. 14:31:10 move to next agendum 14:31:10 agendum 3 -- Set of (Web)pages -- taken up [from JJ] 14:32:45 JJ: Summarises what has been done and discussed before. It seems that we can use the “page” definition, but we might want to include some examples. 14:36:14 q+ 14:36:21 ack hdv 14:37:23 WCAG-EM 2.0: https://w3c.github.io/wai-wcag-em/ Sampleset: https://w3c.github.io/wai-wcag-em/#sampleset 14:37:38 q+ 14:38:14 hdv: In WCAG-EM we don’t often talk about multiple sets of pages; it’s not very common. In the next version of WCAG-EM, we are updating that. We are talking more about “sample sets.” 14:39:00 ack pauljadam 14:40:20 pauljadam: I worry about multiple sets of pages. There might be issues with consistent identification and navigation. Within an app, I would consider the app pages to be one set of pages. 14:41:52 JJ: set of pages = one flow? How do we deal with different flows 14:43:28 q? 14:43:47 ACTION: Finetune definition proposal by shoobe01 14:44:22 move to next agendum 14:44:22 agendum 4 -- Underlaying layer -- taken up [from JJ] 14:45:06 On screen keyboard 14:46:18 JJ: Summarises previous comments. 14:49:20 q+ 14:49:27 ack shoobe 14:50:04 q+ 14:50:24 shoobe01: what is the point of this definition: e.g. who is in control? 14:50:57 ack julianmka 14:51:19 JJ: To allow people who are auditing to understand when exceptions apply. 14:52:15 julianmka: Example Apple Pay add card flow. 14:52:23 Also JJ - Example 2: NFC scanning sheet. 14:53:15 julianmka: Apple Pay onboarding example, keyboard alerts and permissions - will probably make it clearer to present what each layer means 14:53:44 JJ: on iOS - NFC scanning sheet where you cannot adjust anything 14:53:51 q+ 14:54:29 ack Tanya 14:55:27 ACTION: Collect examples of mobile app interactions where you cannot access the layer that is showing, e.g. Apple Pay flow or NFC scanning flow 14:57:37 JJ: we have open drafts on some definitions and SC's. 14:58:18 Zakim, list participants 14:58:18 As of this point the attendees have been Tanya, hdv, pauljadam, Detlev, julianmka, Joe_Humbert, Carol 14:58:46 rrsagent, make minutes 14:58:47 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/12/03-matf-minutes.html JJ 15:13:01 rrsagent, bye 15:13:01 I see 3 open action items saved in https://www.w3.org/2025/12/03-matf-actions.rdf : 15:13:01 ACTION: If user agent is only applied to web content, consider extending success criteria exception clauses with a term that covers native operating system components / behavior [1] 15:13:01 recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/12/03-matf-irc#T14-27-31 15:13:01 ACTION: Finetune definition proposal by shoobe01 [2] 15:13:01 recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/12/03-matf-irc#T14-43-47 15:13:01 ACTION: Collect examples of mobile app interactions where you cannot access the layer that is showing, e.g. Apple Pay flow or NFC scanning flow [3] 15:13:01 recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/12/03-matf-irc#T14-55-27 15:13:06 zakim, bye 15:13:06 leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Tanya, hdv, pauljadam, Detlev, julianmka, Joe_Humbert, Carol 15:13:06 Zakim has left #matf