17:55:09 RRSAgent has joined #aria-at 17:55:13 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/12/03-aria-at-irc 17:55:13 RRSAgent, make logs Public 17:55:14 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Matt_King 17:55:20 present+ 17:55:46 MEETING: ARIA and Assistive Technologies Community Group 17:55:55 rrsagent, make minutes 17:55:56 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/12/03-aria-at-minutes.html Matt_King 18:01:15 Joe_Humbert has joined #aria-at 18:02:26 mmoss has joined #aria-at 18:02:46 spectranaut_ has joined #aria-at 18:02:51 I have to miss due to a work All Hands. I am very behind on my outstanding work, but I will get it done this week. 18:06:54 mfairchild has joined #aria-at 18:12:35 Scribe: Michael 18:14:25 Topic: 2026 meeting schedule and updates 18:14:26 Matt_King_ has joined #aria-at 18:16:19 Matt: The first big change is that Meta won't be funding the project. We will still continue the project, but won't have funding for current contracts. 18:17:07 Matt: Fortunately the project will have most of the tools set up such that we can continue to move forward, but likely at a slower pace. 18:18:33 James: Expressed thanks for all of the work that folks have contributed to the project 18:19:06 Matt: This doesn't in any way mean that ARIA-AT is ending, but it is changing. It has always been the plan that Meta would bootstrap this project. 18:20:22 Matt: If you know anyone that wants to dive in and help (co-chair, admin, assist in project, etc.) - please contact me. 18:21:16 Matt: For the 2026 meeting schedule, I'm thinking about changing it to a bi-weekly meeting. 18:22:56 Michael: supports bi-weekly. Thursdays would be better. 18:23:53 Matt: one thing we can do is to run a poll 18:25:09 Matt: there are two big things that I have planned for next year. Deque, who will pick up some support for this project, and will provide some level of engineering support, has asked Matt to give a Keynote at axe-con on the project. 18:25:34 Matt: I'm also speaking with folks, including Preety and Michael at CSUN. 18:26:07 Matt: these are two big opportunities and we can leverage these to keep the project moving forward. 18:27:05 preset+ 18:27:09 present+ 18:27:14 scribe+ 18:28:00 TOPIC: Running tests for Switch Example Using HTML Checkbox Input 18:29:08 Murray: Will be finishing up JAWS testing by end of week 18:30:18 Dean: I will get the switch with HTML checkbox done this week 18:30:36 Mike: For VoiceOver we have four conflicting results 18:31:58 Mike: The assertions were both marked as untestable, but showing as conflicting 18:32:34 Mike: There's another build that I'm testing right now. Unsure if Bocoup is aware of this issue. 18:33:03 s/Mike: /Matt: / 18:34:12 Dean: Both of us marked the test as wrong 18:34:26 Dean: Impact Severe, exactly the same. 18:34:40 Matt: That had a negative side effect 18:34:47 Dean: Yes, exactly 18:35:13 s/Matt: /Matt_King: / 18:35:24 Matt_King: I don't know if we want to call this a negative side effect 18:36:15 Matt_King: In the case of operate a switch that is off with the Enter key, nothing happening isn't really a side effect unless Enter caused something unexpected to happen. The assertion just failed. 18:37:14 Matt_King: Just because there was no output, doesn't mean it wasn't testable. 18:37:56 Matt_King: Mark the assertion as failing and remove the negative side effect 18:38:01 Dean: Ok 18:38:11 Matt_King: Then Joe needs to do the same 18:38:47 s/Murray: /mmoss: / 18:39:03 Dean: I'm looking at test 8 and that's the same. I'll change that too. 18:39:16 Matt_King: Yes, if it has the same behavior with no output for the Enter key 18:40:06 Dean: Control+Option+Space passed. I just changed 7 and 8. I'll look at 4. 18:41:02 Dean: number 4 was also marked as untestable. 18:41:15 Matt_King: Number 4 is untestable since the focus goes to the wrong place. That's an issue with the app 18:41:28 Dean: Test 2 and 4 are legitimate app issues. 18:41:34 Matt_King: Correct, your results look accurate to me. 18:42:16 TOPIC: Quantity spin button test plan questions 18:43:28 Matt_King: We do need people to understand the quantity spin button. I put a link to the test plan in the agenda. 18:44:11 Matt_King: First thing everyone has to understand, is that the spin button is an HTML input with type number is an edit field where you can type the value or change the value with the arrow keys. 18:45:32 Matt_King: Normally in all of our test plans we test navigating, reading (request information about), and operating. In the spin button test plan we have two operations testing increment and decrement with the arrow keys. There's a question about the other way of operating with the spin button. You can directly enter a value by typing one. The 18:45:32 question is if we want to test that kind of operation. 18:47:16 Matt_King: In general when web authors check the test plan reports they're likely trying to determine if their own implementation is working correctly compared to the implementation we test. That's one argument in favor of providing the test, without touching on the complications with being able to test that kind of interaction. 18:47:40 Matt_King: If we were to test directly entering a value into the spin button, how do we do it? 18:48:50 Matt_King: What happens when you type a value. The focus gets set on the spin button in the test plan when you click setup. The spin button allows values one through eight. We'll have a test where the user types a new value, say two—if the user does, what do we expect the screen reader to do? What would be the assertions? 18:49:11 Matt_King: We actually don't know if there's any expectation at all. 18:49:50 Matt_King: The user should be able to read the value two, but we already have a test for that. 18:50:51 Matt_King: NVDA has repeat value on by default, so the user would hear "two, two". The assertion would be "the value two is conveyed," 18:51:26 s/repeat value/character echo/ 18:54:34 James: We have a test to check for an invalid value, but testing typing something into an input field isn't necessarily testing something meaningful 18:55:08 James: It feels prone to error unless we ask users to turn off character echo 18:55:29 jongund has joined #aria-at 18:55:42 Isabel: Are we testing the edit field 18:56:20 Matt_King: That is what we're doing. And at some point someone is going to say we need to do interop testing of an edit field. 18:56:47 Matt_King: Maybe what we're doing is enough. 18:57:24 Matt_King: All tests have an automatic assertion of "there aren't any negative side effects" but I don't know how to have that assertion without having at least one additional assertion. We can't have a test with zero assertions. 18:57:58 Matt_King: If we have the test for typing an invalid value, then we would capture any invalid side effects from that one. 18:58:07 Isabel: I think that would be enough 18:58:50 Matt_King: And that one only has a single assertion, the screen reader may convey. I wonder if it is should be a "may" or a "should". 18:59:27 Matt_King: We have a decision. We'll have two assertions for an invalid assertion. Both will be "may". 19:00:18 rrsagent, generate minutes 19:00:20 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/12/03-aria-at-minutes.html mmoss 19:00:52 zakim, end meeting 19:00:52 As of this point the attendees have been Matt_King, mmoss 19:00:53 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 19:00:55 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/12/03-aria-at-minutes.html Zakim 19:01:01 I am happy to have been of service, Matt_King; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 19:01:02 Zakim has left #aria-at 19:01:19 s/Mike:/Matt:/ 19:01:29 s/Matt:/Matt_King:/ 19:01:40 rrsagent, generate minutes 19:01:42 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/12/03-aria-at-minutes.html mmoss 19:26:20 jongund has joined #aria-at 20:28:25 jongund has joined #aria-at 20:49:09 jongund has joined #aria-at 21:05:23 jongund has joined #aria-at