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14:49:56 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/11/24-lws-irc
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14:50:10 <TallTed> meeting: Linked Web Storage WG meeting
14:51:01 <TallTed> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/a19ab7dc-1753-433d-bac5-64e3ad8c0a43/20251124T100000/
14:51:01 <agendabot> clear agenda
14:51:01 <agendabot> agenda+ Introductions and announcements
14:51:01 <agendabot> agenda+ Authentication & Authorization proposals
14:51:01 <agendabot> agenda+ Containment discussion
14:51:05 <acoburn> acoburn has joined #lws
14:51:49 <TallTed> present+
14:52:07 <acoburn> zakim, start meeting
14:52:07 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:52:09 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), acoburn
14:52:27 <acoburn> meeting: Linked Web Storage - 24 November, 2025
14:52:38 <TallTed> agenda?
14:52:52 <acoburn> chair: acoburn
14:52:54 <acoburn> present+
14:53:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/24-lws-minutes.html TallTed
14:53:42 <TallTed> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/11/17-lws-minutes.html
14:53:42 <TallTed> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/12/01-lws-minutes.html
14:54:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/24-lws-minutes.html TallTed
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15:01:36 <eBremer> present+
15:01:54 <gibsonf1> present+
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15:02:20 <Beau> present+
15:04:21 <eBremer> scribe+
15:04:29 <acoburn> zakim, open agendum 1
15:04:29 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Introductions and announcements -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:04:49 <jeswr> jeswr has joined #lws
15:04:53 <eBremer> acoburn: introductions....
15:05:00 <jeswr> present+
15:05:01 <jeswr> q+
15:05:10 <acoburn> ack next
15:05:24 <eBremer> jeswr: 1st, solid symposium 2026 has gone live with tickets
15:05:25 <jeswr> https://sosy2026.eu/
15:05:57 <eBremer> ... ODI having a hack-a-thon at beginning
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15:06:11 <jeswr> https://theodi.org/news-and-events/news/announcing-the-solid-symposium-2026/
15:06:23 <bigbluehat> present+ Benjamin Young
15:06:32 <eBremer> ... I would like ODI to host LWS meeting at start of week
15:06:46 <eBremer> ... ODI prepared to host one
15:06:54 <eBremer> ... things going the whole week
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15:07:18 <AZ> present+
15:07:20 <eBremer> acoburn: anyone a member of WG should pencil those dates in...
15:07:31 <jeswr> There is a “Solid Week” from April 27 - May 1, which includes:
15:07:31 <jeswr>  - An application development tournament (April 27 - April 29)
15:07:31 <jeswr>  - Likely a Linked Web Storage in-person meeting (April 27 - April 28)
15:07:31 <jeswr>  - The Solid Symposium (April 30 - May 1)
15:07:35 <eBremer> acoburn: most likely will be
15:07:39 <pchampin> q+
15:07:46 <acoburn> ack next
15:08:14 <bigbluehat> q+ to say hi :)
15:08:35 <eBremer> pchampin: TPAC - summary of informal discussion with people about the relavence of subsetting of LWS toa read-only part
15:08:54 <eBremer> ... POD restricting write operations
15:09:19 <eBremer> ... inform applications so that they do not break
15:09:35 <eBremer> ... convo with Dan Brickley...having a POD be read-only
15:09:49 <bendm> bendm has joined #lws
15:09:53 <eBremer> ... which then LWS could use in a LWS way
15:09:55 <bendm> present+
15:10:05 <bendm> RSSAgent make minutes
15:10:12 <gibsonf1> q+ to ask about application data issue
15:10:16 <eBremer> ... underlying concern Dan expressed, that any applciation broken when trying to write
15:10:25 <eBremer> ... use case we should acknowledge
15:10:45 <TallTed> so, restoring the read-only (or read-mostly) environment of today's www, to the read-write-web toward which LWS (and Solid) is aiming?
15:10:46 <eBremer> ... we talked about f2f, Darius is one of the co-chairs of the social web wg
15:10:55 <eBremer> ... missions to update and maintain activity pods
15:11:18 <eBremer> ... LWS and social groups should be able to liaise on regular basis
15:11:44 <eBremer> ... we should probably plan on attending their Dublin 2026 meeting
15:11:49 <jeswr> q+
15:11:51 <TallTed> AuthN + AuthZ should be enough to deliver the protected data spaces being described, whether via WAC or other...
15:12:09 <acoburn> ack jeswr
15:12:28 <eBremer> jeswr: had convo with Chris Riley
15:12:46 <eBremer> ... plan their to use DTI connectioons to bridge data from services like Google and Facebook
15:12:56 <jeswr> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zJYPjBglxxptc9rhlrkOBzL6f_yNWNBJ4FG_E5cL4mk/edit?tab=t.0
15:13:16 <eBremer> ...2n thing i want to advertise, is one of the seesions for solid symposium...what infrastructure we need on top of LWS and solid layers
15:13:17 <jeswr> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cP2qQDlWYoJnw-Bbqbr5FrVcUsbKJB4kUm6BSwXz20Q/edit?tab=t.0
15:13:31 <eBremer> ... topic of restricting read and write on the server side
15:13:57 <eBremer> ... that the applicarions are reading and writing the datamodels that they're certified to write
15:14:07 <eBremer> ... please give feedback on proposal
15:14:08 <acoburn> ack next
15:14:09 <Zakim> bigbluehat, you wanted to say hi :)
15:14:52 <eBremer> bigbluehat: open invitation to upcoming JSONLD start incorporation
15:14:53 <pchampin> s/Darius/Darius Kazemi
15:15:09 <eBremer> ... and talk through anything you might want to see in JSON-LD going forward
15:15:12 <acoburn> ack next
15:15:13 <Zakim> gibsonf, you wanted to ask about application data issue
15:16:07 <eBremer> gibsonf1: Pierre - were not technically doing LD currently in solid...
15:16:47 <eBremer> ... manahin how to write to thise sioloed areas is difficulty versus lets if a storage wereeffectively a linked data graph
15:17:17 <acoburn> zakim, open agendum 2
15:17:17 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Authentication & Authorization proposals -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:17:21 <eBremer> pchampin: I disagree that we're not doing LD.  thats probably an offline discussion....
15:18:01 <eBremer> ... but to your point, at the graph level rather than the resource level solve the problem
15:18:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/24-lws-minutes.html TallTed
15:19:07 <acoburn> -> Authorization proposal https://github.com/w3c/lws-protocol/pull/45
15:19:08 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/lws-protocol/pull/45 -> Pull Request 45 LWS Authorization (by acoburn)
15:19:24 <acoburn> -> Authentication proposal https://github.com/w3c/lws-protocol/pull/43
15:19:25 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/lws-protocol/pull/43 -> Pull Request 43 LWS Authentication (by acoburn)
15:19:29 <jeswr> Imlementation of authN/authZ specs https://github.com/jeswr/lws-keycloak
15:19:39 <acoburn> q?
15:19:47 <acoburn> zakim, open agendum 3
15:19:47 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Containment discussion -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:20:20 <eBremer> jeswr: picking up on topic of containers which are similar to LWP but not exactly
15:20:55 <eBremer> ... last weeks what a response might look like
15:21:06 <eBremer> ... an option to get a framed jsonld response
15:21:30 <eBremer> ... and the server implementations may allow you to contneg other content response types
15:21:46 <eBremer> ... having a special application/json+lws type
15:21:57 <eBremer> ... and a schema to describe this frame
15:22:10 <eBremer> ... what these media type should look like
15:22:36 <eBremer> ... what the BP around having HSON schema to describe the frame of JSON-LD objects
15:23:07 <bigbluehat> q+
15:23:14 <acoburn> ack next
15:23:58 <eBremer> bigbluehat: whole profile sitation..failry fraught if you look over last 5 or 6 years
15:24:03 <eBremer> ... of suggested patterns
15:24:12 <eBremer> ... we minted serveal profile URLS
15:24:25 <eBremer> ... we're full https URLs for profile values
15:24:36 <eBremer> ... get spooked with http call in places
15:24:50 <gibsonf1> q+ to ask, would't url encoding the profile fix that problem?
15:24:57 <eBremer> ... blocking the use of profile equals  http anything
15:25:51 <eBremer> ... we now have application/vc which is still jason..unformtunate becauyse there a whole lot more top level media types
15:26:19 <eBremer> ... not sure if it matters in this particular case
15:26:29 <acoburn> ack next
15:26:30 <Zakim> gibsonf, you wanted to ask, would't url encoding the profile fix that problem?
15:26:30 <jeswr> q+
15:26:59 <eBremer> gibsonf1: wouldn't encoding the URL fix  that problem with the browser.
15:27:08 <eBremer> bigbluehat: great question
15:27:16 <eBremer> ... im not sure honestly
15:27:35 <eBremer> ... the constrined corfes desktop mobile browser world
15:27:51 <pchampin> q+
15:27:52 <TallTed> URL lengths, among other issues, come up when you really start working with profiled media types
15:27:53 <eBremer> ... where the browser will just choke on it
15:28:00 <acoburn> ack next
15:28:15 <eBremer> ...maybe a URN or a did or something starts to look better
15:28:31 <eBremer> jeswr: solid was a file system for the web...still is
15:28:36 <pchampin> q-
15:28:50 <eBremer> ... LDP ha skind of many similar functionality
15:29:39 <eBremer> ..for lws, something looking to dowhen it comes to developers were looking to have structured json response so tht developers that are coming from more a world of dealing with json objects
15:29:49 <eBremer> ... are able to just fetch json
15:29:56 <TallTed> jeswr -- please share URL to the gDoc you're sharing, so it may be more readable for us
15:30:00 <bigbluehat> q+
15:30:07 <eBremer> ... and not have to do any parsing of the document in RDF form
15:30:12 <acoburn> ack next
15:30:41 <eBremer> bigbluehat: key thing with signalling media type than your problem space
15:31:05 <TallTed> q+
15:31:21 <eBremer> ... the use of profile is nice, you can still use it, you just have to update the spec
15:31:28 <eBremer> ... versus a url
15:31:54 <eBremer> ...the web annotation group were to ever reboot, and I think web publications is still considering this route for EPUB
15:32:23 <eBremer> jeswr: in solid today, only two content types are json-ld and turtle
15:32:39 <eBremer> ... when you get a json-ld response, no framing that servers have to respond with
15:33:40 <eBremer> ... no solid framing to that at all, so in LWS be more strict with that
15:33:49 <bigbluehat> q+ to ask about variability (especially of frames) and across time (versions of LWS, etc)
15:33:55 <eBremer> ... to enable clients to specify that particular frame if they want that
15:34:10 <eBremer> ... to be guaranteed to get what they really want
15:34:15 <acoburn> ack next
15:34:57 <eBremer> tallted: 1st - and this is vitally important being the LWS WG.  Solid is just another suite of applications that will make use of LWS applications
15:35:19 <eBremer> ... I may have chosen to store my data in serveral diff LWS storage locations...
15:35:49 <eBremer> ... applications tooks that I may be using with that data may make it their own choices about parceling the data out
15:36:01 <eBremer> ... solid - 10 year old project
15:36:16 <eBremer> ... which may or may not be use din LWS
15:36:48 <eBremer> ... questions about backing it up...or what may be allowed to change it or can read from these locartions
15:36:58 <eBremer> ... and write to ones
15:37:15 <eBremer> ... its important not to prematurely limit or permit things
15:37:36 <eBremer> ... at this stage of the game it is better to say this is permitted under various conditions
15:37:37 <jeswr> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tHLQ2sylpP_J8JMlee4q3g-bx487qcgZ7Lbx6zIAzes/edit?tab=t.0
15:37:47 <eBremer> ... and be able to say what those are
15:37:52 <ryey> ryey has joined #lws
15:37:55 <ryey> present+
15:38:07 <acoburn> ack next
15:38:08 <Zakim> bigbluehat, you wanted to ask about variability (especially of frames) and across time (versions of LWS, etc)
15:38:34 <TallTed> s/its important/it's important/
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15:38:51 <eBremer> bigbluehat: if you're going to have a lws+json they're all going to share the same context with variability around the frames
15:38:57 <pchampin> q+
15:39:06 <eBremer> ... which makes them far less extensible
15:39:15 <TallTed> s/make use of LWS applications/make use of LWS storage locations/
15:39:50 <eBremer> ... more extensibility withing the media type name if LWS were a top level thing
15:39:59 <TallTed> q+ to note built-in difficulties with "windowsize" or "filesize"
15:40:19 <eBremer> ... another last point, file extensions, you will have to mint a top-level media type
15:40:39 <eBremer> ... toget a .lws file if you wanted that
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15:41:10 <eBremer> ... if you can push towards how often we're gonna push that handle...at the media type level that helps a ton
15:41:22 <acoburn> ack next
15:41:26 <eBremer> ...what frames you would define up front?
15:41:49 <eBremer> pchampin: thats gonna alter the media type versus profile discussion
15:41:53 <ericP> present+
15:42:23 <eBremer> ... convo in AP which is allowing developer sto manage this data as pure json if they want to do that
15:42:47 <eBremer> ... extensibility and flexibility that REF offers for those who want that
15:42:54 <eBremer> ... its a double-edge sword
15:43:55 <eBremer> ... maybe steer the format in a way that any extension that would be added which is possible through additional contexts and mapping those extended terms to specific URI would maybe be harder to use in the wrong way
15:43:58 <acoburn> ack next
15:43:59 <Zakim> TallTed, you wanted to note built-in difficulties with "windowsize" or "filesize"
15:44:02 <jeswr> q+
15:44:38 <eBremer> tallted: there is often an expressed desire to having a paging facility to be able to work with some window of records as jsonld or json
15:45:10 <eBremer> ... tragically, http specified is byte-based
15:45:42 <eBremer> ... its not about fields, its about bytes which makes it really hard to build good windowing tool
15:46:14 <acoburn> ack next
15:46:18 <eBremer> ... and its big problem which i am trying to raise early
15:46:44 <eBremer> jeswr: finish up media type discussion, option 1 profile-based option
15:46:58 <bigbluehat> q+
15:47:05 <eBremer> ... we want to consider versions which we dont have yet. have something like lws-10
15:47:21 <eBremer> ... not sure what it looks like on upgrade path
15:47:37 <gibsonf1> q+ to ask on lws version - can that be in Accept?
15:47:53 <eBremer> ... are we having a different profile for each thing we are getting back when we gettign a repsponse back for a container
15:48:02 <acoburn> ack next
15:48:05 <eBremer> ... do we doing something like this for all of the frames we want
15:48:28 <eBremer> jeswr: one frame for containers,expect others
15:48:45 <eBremer> acoburn: one perhaps for storage metadata
15:49:10 <eBremer> bigbluehat: you can use other http headers as well. wve mostly been focused on the media-type
15:49:47 <eBremer> ... if variability is just versioning, maybe have an eye towards where youre gonna  put the version number
15:50:21 <eBremer> ... they're just going to need to mao to those frames and whatyou will do to your ecosystem if they dont change
15:50:32 <bendm> q+ to ask why does this need to be out of band? can't we do it all in the actual frame and just have mimetype application/ld+json?
15:51:15 <acoburn> ack next
15:51:16 <Zakim> gibsonf, you wanted to ask on lws version - can that be in Accept?
15:51:22 <eBremer> ... collect all of the things, start your ENOM profile approach and maybe use lws+json profile
15:52:11 <eBremer> gibsonf1: if we require all LWS compliant servers, application can request whichever they want assuming the server is up to date
15:52:38 <jeswr> q+
15:52:39 <acoburn> ack next
15:52:40 <Zakim> bendm, you wanted to ask why does this need to be out of band? can't we do it all in the actual frame and just have mimetype application/ld+json?
15:53:01 <TallTed> HTTP server is always in control of what it ships to a client, regardless of the *request* headers (hence their name)
15:53:29 <eBremer> bendm: wondering this needs to be, can this metadata just be part of the response json so part of the frame so that we dont need to create our own custom mime types media types these kind of things
15:53:49 <eBremer> ... in my naive thinking prevents interoperability
15:54:21 <pchampin> note that for Turtle & co, the RDF & SPARQL WG defined a specific media-type parameter version=, distinct from profile=
15:54:26 <eBremer> acoburn: implies response could be just about anything.  not a lot of structure
15:54:56 <eBremer> ... if we do constrain it, that indicates to clients we are working with a constrained set of data which is where we are trying to get to
15:55:07 <bigbluehat> q+
15:55:20 <eBremer> bendm: that not something you can just do with schema just as many other json apis can do
15:55:41 <acoburn> ack next
15:55:49 <eBremer> acoburn: we are straddling this boundary of both json and rdf
15:56:12 <eBremer> bigbluehat: that json schema thing is a actually a good thing..similar to a frame
15:56:25 <jeswr> q+
15:56:39 <eBremer> ... i want it to be a specific shape.  How do you do that over the wire for your protocol?
15:57:11 <eBremer> ... does the client then just say, i got a response and it has this context and this schema and so this frame URL as well
15:57:33 <eBremer> ... aaron you mentioned something about the shape of the jsonld being constrained
15:58:11 <eBremer> acoburn: please review authorization and authentication work if you can
15:58:42 <eBremer> jeswr: flag to bejamin, last week, derive schema from jsonld frames so we can just define one
15:58:55 <bendm> related: https://github.com/KNowledgeOnWebScale/json-schema-ld
15:58:59 <eBremer> bigbluehat: yeah, lets do it over email that would be great
15:59:20 <acoburn> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:59:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/24-lws-minutes.html acoburn
16:00:09 <acoburn> present+ pchampin
16:00:20 <acoburn> present+ bigbluehat
16:00:24 <acoburn> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:00:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/24-lws-minutes.html acoburn
17:02:15 <acoburn> acoburn has left #lws