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14:25:31 <addison> Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
14:25:42 <addison> Chair: Addison Phillips, Joel Sahleen
14:26:59 <addison> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/9449974b-72da-42a3-988a-1ccae4c25616/20251120T150000/
14:27:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/20-i18n-minutes.html addison
14:27:18 <addison> agenda+ Agenda
14:27:22 <addison> agenda+ Action Items
14:27:26 <addison> agenda+ Info Share
14:27:35 <addison> agenda+ Review RADAR Review
14:27:44 <addison> agenda+ Pending Issue Review
14:27:51 <addison> agenda+ TPAC Debrief
14:28:00 <addison> agenda+ UTW Debrief
14:28:26 <addison> agenda+ DAPT
14:28:58 <addison> agenda+Re: Publication request: Updating HTML Ruby Markup Extensions
14:29:30 <addison> agenda+ AOB?
14:29:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/20-i18n-minutes.html addison
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14:52:13 <jsahleen> Zakim, bye
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14:52:33 <jsahleen> zakim, agenda
14:52:41 <jsahleen> Zakim, agenda
14:52:46 <addison> agenda?
14:52:49 <jsahleen> agenda
14:53:23 <jsahleen> Yes, as you instructed. How to resurrect?
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14:54:11 <addison> agenda+ Agenda
14:54:18 <addison> agenda+ Action Items
14:54:21 <addison> agenda+ Info Share
14:54:31 <addison> agenda+ Review RADAR Review
14:54:38 <addison> agenda+ Pending Issues Review
14:54:44 <addison> agenda+ TPAC debrief
14:54:52 <addison> agenda+ UTW debrief
14:54:54 <addison> agenda+ DAPT
14:55:12 <addison> agenda+ HTML Ruby Markup Extensions
14:55:15 <addison> agenda+ AOB?
14:55:39 <addison> agenda?
14:55:40 <jsahleen> Not that I recall, unless we want to add Makoto-san's rewrites
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15:05:24 <addison> present+ Addison, Joel, Fuqiao, Bert, Richard
15:05:29 <addison> regrets+ JcK
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15:06:03 <Bert> scribe+
15:06:18 <jsahleen> agenda?
15:06:29 <jsahleen> Zakim, take up item 1
15:06:29 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Agenda -- taken up [from addison]
15:07:19 <jsahleen> Zakim, take up item 2
15:07:19 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from addison]
15:07:21 <xfq> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:07:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/20-i18n-minutes.html xfq
15:07:36 <JcK> present+ JcK
15:07:36 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues
15:07:53 <addison> #197
15:07:53 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/197 -> Action 197 rename the repo and shortname and publish ruby accessibility document as a first draft note (on xfq, himorin) due 2025-11-18
15:08:12 <Bert> jsahleen: This came out of TPAC?
15:08:21 <xfq> https://w3c.github.io/ruby-t2s-req/
15:08:35 <Bert> xfq: Yes. There is also a document ruby text to speech
15:08:42 <Bert> jsahleen: Makoto's doc?
15:08:58 <Bert> xfq: Yes. Published as draft note, with a different title.
15:09:07 <Bert> s/title/shortname
15:09:14 <Bert> jsahleen: No normative sections?
15:09:23 <Bert> xfq: No, it's a Note.
15:09:34 <Bert> addison: Add it to editors?
15:09:47 <Bert> xfq: Yes, I will do.
15:10:23 <Bert> ... We'll use the name without "s". Will ask Atsushi to rename or I'll d it myself.
15:10:33 <Bert> r12a: And then send it for wide review?
15:10:54 <Bert> xfq: Yes. It still has open issues, but can review it.
15:11:14 <Bert> addison: It's a ‘draft note’, so not done.
15:11:28 <xfq> https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-i18n-minutes.html#7242
15:11:35 <Bert> xfq: Yes, that's what we resolved. See minutes here ^^
15:12:02 <Bert> r12a: So send for review, then fix it, then publish as Note.
15:12:14 <Bert> addison: So still in progress.
15:12:20 <addison> #196
15:12:20 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/196 -> Action 196  remind @duerst to  create a list of gaps in URL standard (on aphillips, duerst) due 2025-11-17
15:12:37 <Bert> jsahleen: Other action to remind Martin ^^
15:12:52 <Bert> addison: I couldn't assign it to MArtin, so I assigned it to myself.
15:13:01 <Bert> ... Haven't heard back from him yet.
15:13:12 <Bert> JcK: Which URL standard?
15:13:22 <Bert> addison: I think it is the WHATWG thing.
15:13:43 <Bert> JcK: In IETF there isa clear boundary between URLs with only ASCII and IRIs.
15:13:55 <Bert> xfq: Discussion was to find shortcomings in WHATWG spec
15:13:58 <addison> s/isa/is a/
15:14:14 <Bert> ... And if they are fixed it can replace the IETF spec.
15:14:42 <Bert> addison: We'll no doubt talk about IRI in coming weeks.
15:15:54 <addison> #195
15:15:55 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/195 -> Action 195  contact WCAG about meeting at TPAC about language-related guidelines (on aphillips) due 2025-11-13
15:16:02 <addison> close #195
15:16:05 <gb> Closed -> issue #195 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/195
15:16:15 <addison> #194
15:16:15 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/194 -> Action 194  write back in support of adding ruby-base support in WCAG (on jsahleen) due 2025-11-13
15:16:21 <jsahleen> close #194
15:16:24 <gb> Closed -> issue #194 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/194
15:16:28 <Bert> jsahleen: About other action items: we did a couple, can close them
15:16:38 <addison> #193
15:16:39 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/193 -> Action 193  send relevant emails requesting tpac stuff to member (on aphillips) due 2025-11-13
15:16:47 <addison> close #193
15:16:48 <gb> Closed -> issue #193 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/193
15:16:53 <addison> #189
15:16:54 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/189 -> Action 189  follow up with shane carr about ecma repo automation (on aphillips) due 2025-10-23
15:17:00 <jsahleen> #187
15:17:00 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/187 -> Action 187  ping GOOG again for participation (on aphillips) due 2025-10-16
15:17:21 <jsahleen> #185
15:17:22 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/185 -> Action 185  follow up with PLH on automating TC39 repos (on aphillips) due 2025-10-02
15:17:28 <jsahleen> #136
15:17:29 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/136 -> Issue 136 follow up on XML errata (by aphillips) [task]
15:17:52 <jsahleen> #135
15:17:53 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/135 -> Action 135  follow up on XR issue 1393 about locale in session (on aphillips) due 2024-10-17
15:18:10 <addison> #33
15:18:11 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/33 -> Action 33 Close issues marked `close?` or bring to WG for further review (on aphillips)
15:18:21 <jsahleen> #7
15:18:22 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/7 -> Action 7 Remind shepherds to tend to their awaiting comment resolutions (Evergreen) (on aphillips, xfq, himorin, r12a, bert-github) due 18 Jul 2023
15:18:33 <jsahleen> #4
15:18:34 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/4 -> Action 4 Work with respec and bikeshed to provide the character markup template as easy-to-use markup (on aphillips) due 27 Jul 2023
15:18:47 <jsahleen> Zakim, take up item 3
15:18:47 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Info Share -- taken up [from addison]
15:19:00 <Bert> jsahleen: Who has info to share?
15:19:08 <Bert> Nobody has.
15:19:12 <jsahleen> Zakim, take up item 4
15:19:12 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Review RADAR Review -- taken up [from addison]
15:19:26 <jsahleen> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/91/views/1
15:20:00 <jsahleen> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/91/views/1?pane=issue&itemId=135218801&issue=w3c%7Ci18n-request%7C281
15:20:04 <Bert> jsahleen: It looks like there is no new request. There are two in review.
15:20:42 <jsahleen> https://github.com/w3c/sustainableweb-wsg/issues/170
15:20:42 <Bert> xfq: Web Sustainability Guidelines we discussed at TPAC. Can move to Awaiting.
15:20:42 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/sustainableweb-wsg/issues/170 -> Issue 170 UX Review: 2.18 Web typography must be highly optimized and appropriate (by ehorrell) [taskforce-ux]
15:21:08 <Bert> jsahleen: Question to do with font subsetting. ^^
15:21:25 <Bert> addison: Deep and exciting topic...
15:22:13 <Bert> ... Looking at the issue, it doesn't have one of our labels. Might want to add tracker label, so we get notified.
15:22:30 <Bert> jsahleen: I seem unable to add the label.
15:22:34 <Bert> xfq: I can do it.
15:23:54 <Bert> jsahleen: We're only asked about the last comment, about characters used for user input and system fonts.
15:24:20 <Bert> addison: We may need to read this first and agenda+ it for the future.
15:24:47 <Bert> r12a: Add it to the agenda as task for everybody or make it an action.
15:25:11 <jsahleen> action: jsahleen: Remind everyone to read https://github.com/w3c/sustainableweb-wsg/issues/170
15:25:21 <gb> Created -> action #198 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/198
15:25:36 <jsahleen> Zakim, take up item 5
15:25:36 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Pending Issues Review -- taken up [from addison]
15:25:44 <Bert> r12a: I'll assign it to everryone in the group.
15:26:19 <Bert> addison: I filed an issue on Sustainability Guidelines. Do you want to move to Awaiting comment resolution?
15:26:43 <Bert> jsahleen: Anything else on Radar review?
15:26:58 <jsahleen> Zakim, take up item 5
15:26:58 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Pending Issues Review -- taken up [from addison]
15:27:11 <jsahleen> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Apending
15:27:39 <jsahleen> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/2048
15:27:40 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/2048 -> Issue 2048 `:lang(lzh)` elements in non-traditional-Chinese CJK elements should not switch font to Traditional Chinese one (by w3cbot) [pending] [tracker] [i:fonts] [i:inline_notes] [spec-type-issue] [jlreq] [clreq]
15:28:48 <Bert> addison: lzh is a language tag for literary Chinese. The request is that font fallbacks should not go to Traditional Chinese.
15:28:52 <jsahleen> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/13050
15:28:52 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/13050 -> Issue 13050 `:lang(lzh)` elements in non-traditional-Chinese CJK elements should not switch font to Traditional Chinese one (by tats-u) [css-fonts-4] [i18n-tracker] [i18n-clreq]
15:29:22 <Bert> ... Interesting proposal that lzh works differently.
15:29:59 <Bert> r12a: I wondered if you couldn't do this with CSS. Assign the ruby to a Chinese font.
15:31:05 <Bert> xfq: The problem is that it is falling back to Traditional Chinese fonts and shouldn't. It should use Japanese fonts.
15:31:34 <Bert> ... Not sure it is CSS. Seems implementation-defined.
15:32:05 <Bert> addison: I think r12a's suggestion is plausible, you could use CSS with :lang()
15:32:57 <Bert> jsahleen: What should we do? Correspond with the issue author?
15:33:12 <Bert> addison: It's tracked.
15:33:37 <Bert> xfq: Agree with r12a. Specifying the font is more reliable.
15:33:53 <Bert> jsahleen: Do you want an action to respond?
15:33:59 <Bert> xfq: I'll just do it.
15:34:11 <jsahleen> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/2040
15:34:11 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/2040 -> Issue 2040 Missing internationalization/localizability from benefits (by aphillips) [pending] [needs-resolution] [t:loc_localization] [s:web-sustainability-guidelines] [ig:sustainableweb]
15:34:40 <jsahleen> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/2047
15:34:41 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/2047 -> Issue 2047 Native Footnote/Endnote Element in HTML (by w3cbot) [pending] [tracker] [s:html]
15:35:04 <Bert> xfq: This wa proposed by Chinese Layout task force
15:35:19 <Bert> ... There is now a semantic element in HTML for footnotes and endnotes.
15:35:26 <addison> s/This wa/This was/
15:35:38 <Bert> ... THis causes a few problems.
15:36:49 <Bert> xfq: Was not discussed during TPAC.
15:37:28 <Bert> addison: Maybe look at what ePub does.
15:37:38 <Bert> xfq: They don't have a native solution either.
15:37:48 <Bert> ... They use classes.
15:38:18 <Bert> s/now a/no/
15:38:31 <jsahleen> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/2040
15:39:09 <jsahleen> Zakim, take up item 6
15:39:09 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- TPAC debrief -- taken up [from addison]
15:39:15 <addison> agenda?
15:40:19 <Bert> addison: Next week is Thanksgiving in the US. Should we meet?
15:41:07 <Bert> Bert: No opionion
15:41:11 <Bert> xfq: Either is fine.
15:41:52 <Bert> jsahleen: TPAC debrief. I wasn't there myself? Anybody wants to report?
15:43:14 <Bert> xfq: Hallway conversation about HTML ruby extension.
15:43:29 <Bert> ... Did not discuss that during our meeting.
15:44:02 <Bert> ... HTML WG is out of charter and cannot publish.
15:44:26 <Bert> ... They should be rechartered, but unknown when.
15:44:48 <Bert> ... Philippe suggest to move it to the i18n group.
15:45:08 <Bert> ... As we have a very old ruby spec, so is in scope.
15:45:15 <jsahleen> q+
15:45:38 <Bert> jsahleen: Should we go to that agenda item?
15:45:54 <Bert> r12a: I went to a CSS session at TPAC.
15:46:05 <Bert> ... They were talking about automatically filling a box with text.
15:46:43 <Bert> ... If you have a couple of lines and they don't fill the width, rather then justifying, you can increase the font size.
15:47:00 <Bert> ... Can look good on something like a Wanted poster.
15:47:45 <Bert> ... It is something they do a lot in Arabic, stretch the text. But we've always considered that as part of justification.
15:47:52 <Bert> ... So this is just a heads up.
15:48:04 <Bert> jsahleen: iOS does this in some cases.
15:48:37 <Bert> r12a: It always takes up more vertical space.
15:48:38 <addison> ack next
15:48:52 <Bert> s.always/also/
15:48:57 <Bert> s/always/also/
15:49:06 <jsahleen> Zakim, take up item 9
15:49:06 <Zakim> agendum 9 -- HTML Ruby Markup Extensions -- taken up [from addison]
15:50:13 <Bert> s|s.always/also/|
15:50:58 <Bert> xfq: According to Florian we don't need to recharter to work on the ruby spec. It's a successor of our old spec.
15:51:28 <Bert> ... But I think it doesn't supersede the old spec, which also has other things.
15:52:15 <Bert> r12a: I think we only want to make editorial chnages and would need to recharter to make substantive changes.
15:52:38 <Bert> addison: Similarly we own the charmod Rec.
15:53:24 <Bert> ... Does WHATWG want to do riuby extensions? Are we the right home for it?
15:53:43 <Bert> xfq: It seems WHATWG doesn't want to.
15:54:14 <Bert> ... We also have the DOM localization message resources to work on.
15:54:20 <Bert> r12a: Is that a Note?
15:54:32 <Bert> xfq: No, that would be normative.
15:54:47 <Bert> r12a: I thought we were going to write requirements.
15:55:18 <Bert> xfq: Several parts of the work. First part is the format. Second part is integartionj in HTML, which is for the WHATWG.
15:55:38 <xfq> https://www.w3.org/2025/11/14-apa-minutes.html#8ae2
15:55:55 <Bert> addison: If we are going to write requirements, that wil be a Note.
15:56:13 <Bert> jsahleen: What do we want to say to Florian?
15:57:03 <Bert> addison: We publish pseudo-normative documents as Notes. We could publish ruby extensions like that. Although I think it should be normative.
15:57:17 <Bert> ... Do a new charter next year.
15:57:22 <Bert> r12a: Or this year.
15:57:37 <Bert> xfq: Or _start_ this year.
15:58:22 <Bert> jsahleen: That doesn't seem to solve Florian's problem. He wants to publish the spec earlier.
15:58:56 <Bert> .. So somebody should write to him.
15:59:25 <Bert> r12a: He's not on this call and our next call is only in two weeks.
15:59:37 <Bert> addison: Not many calls left this year.
16:00:20 <Bert> addison: As Fuqiao said, chartering takes time.
16:00:38 <Bert> ... And I'd like more than a week to review a spec.
16:01:14 <Bert> xfq: We can do both: contact Florian offline and invite him to our next telcon.
16:01:40 <Bert> jsahleen: Who contacts him? Addison? Somebody who taked to him at TPAC?
16:01:41 <addison> action: addison: contact florian about ruby extension spec status and invite to next telecon
16:01:42 <gb> Created -> action #199 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/199
16:01:56 <jsahleen> agenda?
16:02:35 <Bert> jsahleen: UTW can be postponed. How about DAPT?
16:02:39 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 8
16:02:39 <Zakim> agendum 8 -- DAPT -- taken up [from addison]
16:02:52 <Bert> xfq: I'll ask Nigel. But it is probably quick:
16:03:14 <Bert> ... They changed from ‘und' to empty string.
16:03:23 <Bert> ... Can probably close this.
16:03:38 <Bert> ... We preferred empty in our previous discussions.
16:04:01 <Bert> addison: If they close their isseu, we'll close ours, and they can publish.
16:04:07 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 10
16:04:07 <Zakim> agendum 10 -- AOB? -- taken up [from addison]
16:04:24 <xfq> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:04:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/20-i18n-minutes.html xfq
16:04:31 <addison> zakim, who is here?
16:04:31 <Zakim> Present: Addison, Joel, Fuqiao, Bert, Richard, JcK
16:04:31 <Zakim> On IRC I see JcK, agendabot, Zakim, jsahleen, RRSAgent, addison, r12a, koji, alastairc, astearns, Rachael, cwilso, jyasskin, eemeli, csarven, Mek, Bert, gb, ChrisL, florian, xfq
16:04:42 <jsahleen> Zakim, bye
16:04:42 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Addison, Joel, Fuqiao, Bert, Richard, JcK
16:04:42 <Zakim> Zakim has left #i18n