13:45:48 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #matf
13:45:53 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/11/19-matf-irc
13:45:53 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:45:54 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Joe_Humbert
13:46:16 <Joe_Humbert> Zakim, this is MATF November 19, 2025
13:46:16 <Zakim> got it, Joe_Humbert
13:46:36 <Joe_Humbert> Meeting: MATF November 19, 2025
13:46:44 <Joe_Humbert> chair+
13:46:53 <Joe_Humbert> zakim, agenda?
13:46:53 <Zakim> I see nothing on the agenda
13:47:28 <Joe_Humbert> agenda+ Definition of User interface component
13:47:43 <Joe_Humbert> agenda+ Definition of Change of context
13:48:02 <Joe_Humbert> agenda+ Definition of Keyboard interface
13:48:16 <Joe_Humbert> agenda+ Definition of User Agent
13:48:28 <Joe_Humbert> agenda+ Definition of Set of (Web)pages
13:48:31 <Joe_Humbert> zakim, agenda?
13:48:31 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
13:48:32 <Zakim> 1. Definition of User interface component [from Joe_Humbert]
13:48:32 <Zakim> 2. Definition of Change of context [from Joe_Humbert]
13:48:32 <Zakim> 3. Definition of Keyboard interface [from Joe_Humbert]
13:48:32 <Zakim> 4. Definition of User Agent [from Joe_Humbert]
13:48:33 <Zakim> 5. Definition of Set of (Web)pages [from Joe_Humbert]
13:56:13 <shoobe01> shoobe01 has joined #matf
13:56:21 <shoobe01> Present+
14:00:54 <Tanya> Tanya has joined #matf
14:01:01 <quintinb> quintinb has joined #MATF
14:01:07 <pauljadam> pauljadam has joined #matf
14:01:19 <Tanya> present+
14:01:26 <quintinb> present+
14:01:34 <pauljadam> present+
14:01:37 <quintinb> scribe: quintinb
14:01:47 <Rob-w> Rob-w has joined #matf
14:03:23 <Rob-w> Present+
14:03:34 <Joe_Humbert> move to next agendum
14:03:34 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Definition of User interface component -- taken up [from Joe_Humbert]
14:03:57 <Joe_Humbert> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/68
14:04:56 <Joe_Humbert> https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict-22/#dfn-user-interface-components
14:06:29 <Detlev> Detlev has joined #matf
14:06:36 <Detlev> presnet+
14:06:44 <Detlev> present+
14:07:10 <pauljadam> pauljadam has joined #matf
14:07:31 <rachaely> rachaely has joined #matf
14:07:39 <rachaely> present+
14:07:42 <Carol> Carol has joined #MATF
14:07:46 <Carol> present+
14:07:54 <Detlev> q+
14:08:03 <Joe_Humbert> ack Detlev
14:08:08 <pauljadam> Remove the applet example to change it to some sort of custom control example like a custom accordion on iOS native app
14:08:38 <quintinb> @detlev should we use form element and button instead of form element and link?
14:09:05 <quintinb> Maybe "form element (such as links and buttons)" ?
14:09:29 <shoobe01> +1 to adding
14:10:09 <pauljadam> pauljadam has joined #matf
14:10:37 <shoobe01> I think inline links in apps are mostly dumb but almost every one I have worked on the rest of the team insists on adding some, so worth keeping for majority of users of the document, yes.
14:10:43 <quintinb> actions: @quintinb to raise a PR
14:10:51 <Joe_Humbert> Note 2: User interface components include form elements, buttons, and links as well as components generated by code.
14:11:01 <quintinb> +1
14:11:02 <rachaely> +1
14:11:06 <pauljadam> +1
14:11:06 <Tanya> +1
14:11:12 <shoobe01> +1
14:11:16 <Rob-w> +1
14:11:17 <Carol> +1
14:11:18 <Detlev> +1
14:12:26 <pauljadam> old school java applets :)
14:13:19 <pauljadam> custom control example like accordion or something,
14:13:37 <shoobe01> q+
14:13:39 <pauljadam> or a custom carousel or something
14:13:50 <rachaely> +1 to Paul's suggestion
14:14:09 <Joe_Humbert> ack shoobe01
14:14:13 <quintinb> shoobe01 also find the example confusing
14:14:34 <pauljadam> It sounds like a button used to move you through a form in a java applet 🤷‍♂️
14:15:19 <quintinb> It sounds like they were trying to do something more complex than a button, but it goes weird
14:15:59 <pauljadam> q+
14:16:03 <Detlev> +1 to Joe's suggestion
14:16:08 <quintinb> Suggestion: A carousel can have 3 separate user interface components, next, previous and random access position selection
14:16:10 <Joe_Humbert> ack pauljadam
14:16:40 <quintinb> pauljadam this is probably because things like new controls need to be accessible as well.
14:16:46 <Joe_Humbert> ack shoobe01
14:17:25 <pauljadam> I think either or works
14:17:36 <pauljadam> Yes to carousel example!
14:17:55 <pauljadam> random access position selection seems strange :)
14:18:06 <pauljadam> just call it pagination buttons
14:18:07 <quintinb> Haha still better than an applet
14:18:13 <Tanya> +1 to carousel example
14:18:18 <rachaely> i agree with the carousel, but maybe next, previous and pause?
14:18:26 <pauljadam> next previous and pause sounds good
14:18:40 <quintinb> Cool will submit a PR with the carousel example
14:18:47 <quintinb> Thanks pauljadam
14:19:03 <pauljadam> 👏
14:20:42 <Joe_Humbert> move to next agendum
14:20:42 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Joe_Humbert
14:20:54 <Joe_Humbert> ack shoobe01
14:21:01 <Joe_Humbert> ack shoobe
14:21:02 <quintinb> q-
14:21:13 <Joe_Humbert> move to next agendum
14:21:13 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Definition of Change of context -- taken up [from Joe_Humbert]
14:21:26 <Joe_Humbert> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/69
14:23:19 <Joe_Humbert> https://github.com/w3c/matf/pull/279
14:23:49 <pauljadam> pauljadam has joined #matf
14:24:23 <quintinb> Files changed tab -> Review changes drop down -> Comment or Approve
14:26:18 <Rob-w> Can't approve the PR on this machine, but I approve it in principle
14:27:02 <quintinb> q
14:27:08 <Joe_Humbert> move to next agendum
14:27:08 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Definition of Keyboard interface -- taken up [from Joe_Humbert]
14:27:17 <quintinb> spicy
14:27:26 <Joe_Humbert> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/66
14:28:56 <Joe_Humbert> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/66#issuecomment-3184181147
14:29:30 <pauljadam> pauljadam has joined #matf
14:29:53 <shoobe01> q+
14:30:28 <Rob-w> q+
14:30:55 <Joe_Humbert> ack shoobe
14:31:50 <quintinb> shoobe01 I just wrote the visible edits yesterday to make sure I was happy in concept. It's not a bad concept, updating to modern tech would be helpful. Do we need to look at the commentary below? Do we need some other examples for other accessibility inputs?
14:32:34 <Joe_Humbert> ack Rob-w
14:33:55 <quintinb> Rob-w my feeedback relates to the mouse operation - I think WCAG and specifically this presupposes that web works with mouse. That's why we struggle to fit it in here. I don't think anyone would say mouse type operations are keyboard. We must insist that mouse is supported.
14:34:00 <quintinb> +1
14:34:16 <shoobe01> +1
14:34:38 <Joe_Humbert> +1
14:34:40 <quintinb> Maybe a really silly q - HOW do you not support mouse in mobile? Surely it just replaces sausage input?
14:35:14 <pauljadam> pauljadam has joined #matf
14:35:24 <Detlev> It seems to fit into Success Criterion 2.5.6 Concurrent Input Mechanisms
14:35:44 <Detlev> ...but that is only AAA
14:36:04 <rachaely> yeah a user agent requirement
14:36:19 <quintinb> quintinb we just need to ensure that the responsibility is in the right place
14:36:31 <Rob-w> q+
14:36:31 <quintinb> pauljadam does it fit in any other success criteria or is it new?
14:36:40 <shoobe01> Yes, both major mobile OSs support external pointing devices, a cursor will show up on screen when they are attached (AFAIK, doesn't override, touch still works also at the same time.
14:37:37 <quintinb> Rob-w from iOS, for the most part the OS supports pointer input but it can be not supported via bad coding
14:38:02 <quintinb> Rob-w my preference is that it mouse and pointer gestures do get fitted in
14:38:24 <quintinb> action: Rob-w to investigate where mouse input goes
14:38:44 <quintinb> pauljadam This is a little confusing
14:40:43 <Detlev> q+
14:40:47 <quintinb> Carol 2.5.1: There are times when a component requires a path-based gesture for touch screen devices but not with a mouse. Taking an example of a generic slider:
14:40:47 <quintinb> Using a mouse: If the user clicks on the thumb control of the slider and moves vertically, the slider will respond by moving to the right or left, even if the movement is mostly upwards. There will be no page scrolling as a result of the vertical movement as long as they drag with focus on the slider. Therefore, the slider does not require a
14:40:47 <quintinb> path-based gesture with mouse pointer.
14:40:57 <Joe_Humbert> ack Rob-w
14:41:20 <Joe_Humbert> ack Detlev
14:42:20 <quintinb> Detlev It was always meant to focus on simple taps. It doesn't fit in the keyboard question. 2.5.6 concurrent input requires that you can carry over keyboard to another mechanism, but it's problematic as it's AAA
14:42:55 <quintinb> pauljadam could we move this to AA
14:43:04 <shoobe01> +1
14:43:25 <quintinb> Agree that mouse should be included with pointer
14:43:34 <shoobe01> I think we have a good argument because of the possibility (for routine work or a11y interfaces) of attached pointers on mobile, AND the touchscreen still working of course.
14:43:41 <quintinb> Trusting Rob-w to "pointer" us in the right direction
14:43:43 <Rob-w> wag 3 seems to cover it quite nicely https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag-3.0/#pointer-input
14:46:02 <quintinb> Detlev does this include virtual keyboards and how a mouse can interface as a keyboard?
14:46:41 <pauljadam> that means you can't be allowed to meet the keyboard requirement by using mouse keys or a virtual keyboard only
14:46:48 <Detlev> proposal looks good to me
14:47:03 <quintinb> I like it
14:49:00 <quintinb> Mouse Keys: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/use-mouse-keys-to-move-the-mouse-pointer-9e0c72c8-b882-7918-8e7b-391fd62adf33
14:49:30 <Detlev> "virtual mousklicks where the pointer is moved over the target via key input"
14:50:49 <quintinb> Apple version of Mouse Keys: https://support.apple.com/en-gb/guide/mac-help/mh27469/mac
14:51:39 <quintinb> shoobe01: Change of focus like old school tab order, do we need to include that?
14:53:18 <Joe_Humbert> move to next agendum
14:53:18 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Definition of User Agent -- taken up [from Joe_Humbert]
14:53:30 <quintinb> extra spicy
14:54:41 <quintinb> Tanya raised a concern that comments are happening in 2 places, both parent and sub issue
14:59:30 <quintinb> q+
14:59:55 <quintinb> Maybe we should just create an action to consolidate the comments and come back next week since we have 1 minute left?
15:00:56 <Tanya> in 2 weeks
15:01:20 <quintinb> action: Joe_Humbert to consilate comments to parent issue
15:02:47 <Joe_Humbert> Zakim, list participants
15:02:47 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been shoobe, Tanya, quintinb, pauljadam, Rob-w, Detlev, rachaely, Carol
15:03:18 <Joe_Humbert> rrsagent, make minutes
15:03:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/19-matf-minutes.html Joe_Humbert
15:04:08 <Joe_Humbert> rrsagent, bye
15:04:08 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in https://www.w3.org/2025/11/19-matf-actions.rdf :
15:04:08 <RRSAgent> ACTION: s to @quintinb to raise a PR [1]
15:04:08 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/11/19-matf-irc#T14-10-43
15:04:08 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Rob-w to investigate where mouse input goes [2]
15:04:08 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/11/19-matf-irc#T14-38-24
15:04:08 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Joe_Humbert to consilate comments to parent issue [3]
15:04:08 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/11/19-matf-irc#T15-01-20