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06:30:53 <breakout-bot> Meeting: PWA Widgets
06:30:53 <breakout-bot> Chair: Samuel Richard
06:30:53 <breakout-bot> Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/tpac2025-breakouts/issues/91
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06:30:54 <breakout-bot> Zakim, clear agenda
06:30:54 <Zakim> agenda cleared
06:30:54 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Pick a scribe
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06:30:55 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy
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06:30:55 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Goal of this session
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06:30:56 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Discussion
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06:30:56 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Next steps / where discussion continues
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06:30:58 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Adjourn / Use IRC command: Zakim, end meeting
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08:05:53 <christianliebel> scribe+
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08:06:36 <Mek> RRSAgent, generate the minutes
08:06:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/13-pwa-widgets-minutes.html Mek
08:07:04 <christianliebel> Sam: Explainer by Aaron (https://github.com/MicrosoftEdge/MSEdgeExplainers/blob/main/PWAWidgets/README.md)
08:07:16 <christianliebel> This is implemented in Edge
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08:07:56 <dmurph> present+
08:07:56 <dmurph> scribe+
08:07:56 <christianliebel> I wanted to talk to the Edge team, how it's going and what the feedback from partners was. Also, I wanted to ask if there's general interest to make that a web platform thing.
08:08:00 <dmurph> scribe+ schristianliebel
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08:08:18 <dmurph> scribe+ <christianliebel>
08:08:21 <christianliebel> (Quick introductions)
08:08:22 <dmurph> scribe+ christianliebel
08:09:10 <dmurph> Bytedance wants to creates widgets in special OS
08:09:16 <scheib> Intros
08:09:48 <scheib> One interest in use case is in VR displays
08:10:34 <dmurph> Folks from edge joining who can demo, were around during implementation
08:10:53 <Mek> RRSAgent, generate the minutes
08:10:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/13-pwa-widgets-minutes.html Mek
08:11:01 <christianliebel> s/special OS/spatial OS
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08:11:53 <christianliebel> Sam: Purpose of the API is to create widgets, and send data to widgets via a Service Worker.
08:12:43 <christianliebel> Lu: The API is implemented in Edge. The explainer is more or less in sync with the implementation.
08:13:05 <christianliebel> (Widget demo)
08:14:03 <christianliebel> In Windows, there's a widgets view. Normally, you can add new widgets through the store.
08:15:36 <christianliebel> PWA Widgets can also be displayed, and you can control your PWA from the widget.
08:16:07 <christianliebel> Sam: It also has Periodic Background Sync specified.
08:16:24 <christianliebel> Any feedback from partners that implemented this?
08:16:45 <christianliebel> Lu: Facebook was the main partner, it's been around for a while.
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08:17:15 <christianliebel> Sam: Want to open the floor - deep-dive into the explainer, should we push this to WebApps, why are people interested?
08:17:22 <diekus> https://github.com/MicrosoftEdge/MSEdgeExplainers/blob/main/SystemStatusIcon/explainer.md
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08:17:48 <christianliebel> dmurph: We were discussing this similar proposal a while ago.
08:17:56 <christianliebel> s/dmurph/diekus
08:18:44 <christianliebel> But we didn't get the necessary support.
08:19:26 <christianliebel> But, there's applications that need similar things, for example, the OneDrive app that opens a web UI when clicking on its system status icon.
08:19:41 <christianliebel> That received more support, so it may make sense to pursue this approach.
08:20:11 <christianliebel> dmurph: So would this be a separate thing?
08:20:44 <christianliebel> diekus: Widgets would probably be separate, but you could certainly use the companion structure for them as well.
08:21:06 <christianliebel> Sam: What do people think about widgets?
08:21:17 <christianliebel> s/Sam/Snugug
08:22:18 <christianliebel> diekus: I’m here to support! Remember, Windows restricted the potential widgets to a certain format.
08:22:38 <christianliebel> Snugug: There are two ways in the Explainer, the OS-templated widget, and the free-form widget.
08:22:55 <christianliebel> Would like to start with OS-templated widgets, and then move on to the more free-form ones.
08:23:44 <christianliebel> Talked to Android people before this session, and running web-view widgets on an Android phone may have performance implications. So that would have to be taken into account.
08:25:38 <christianliebel> dmurph: How static is the current proposal?
08:26:06 <christianliebel> Snugug: The current Edge implementation is very Microsoft ActiveCard-specific, but the spec doesn’t define it.
08:26:20 <christianliebel> First step of specification could be that we identify 5…10 common use cases
08:26:54 <christianliebel> (calendar, etc.)
08:27:56 <christianliebel> And then we define whatever the standard calendar object is, and Windows/Android/… can use the platform-specific things to display that info.
08:27:58 <christianliebel> RRSAgent, draft minutes
08:28:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/13-pwa-widgets-minutes.html christianliebel
08:28:57 <christianliebel> ???: Something that is not clear to me, is this applicable to every platform? Edge only? Or is it regardless of the platform?
08:29:18 <christianliebel> Snugug: This explainer is only launched in Edge. The templates that are available are ms-prefixed for Edge
08:29:27 <christianliebel> It’s done so that it can be flexible per OS
08:29:36 <christianliebel> On Android we would have to do some work to make this available, and on macOS as well
08:29:56 <christianliebel> For me the goal for this would be not to have an ms-calendar, android-calendar, but only "calendar"
08:31:05 <christianliebel> And then you only fill in the template—basic configuration that gets most of the developers most of the way there
08:31:57 <christianliebel> That’s my proposal for a potential Rev.0
08:32:30 <christianliebel> Lu: Worried about how developers can do customization, it’s possible in Edge right now
08:33:08 <christianliebel> Snugug: Correct, due to the use of ActiveCards, but I would like to make it more generic to make it available on other platform as well
08:33:52 <christianliebel> Lu: Like that, but how can we make this "developer-progressive"—next steps?
08:34:24 <christianliebel> Worried about if it’s too common that it would find adopters
08:35:25 <christianliebel> Snugug: It would be good if we could find people to define that set of properties, happy to talk to Office teams or other people
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08:36:19 <christianliebel> dmurph: Sounds like a great next step, are there risks to this? I don’t see any red flags.
08:37:37 <christianliebel> s/???/Yoshisato
08:37:43 <christianliebel> Yoshisato: Are there WPT tests?
08:37:43 <xiaoqian> RRSAgent, make minutes
08:37:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/13-pwa-widgets-minutes.html xiaoqian
08:37:51 <christianliebel> Lu: None that I know of
08:38:31 <christianliebel> dmurph: Somebody know how easy it is to add it to WPT?
08:38:37 <christianliebel> Lu: It’s not that hard.
08:40:14 <christianliebel> xiaoqian: Can’t speak for members, but we see a lot of common use cases in combination with the ??? browser, happy to connect you with them. Have you requested a TAG review for it?
08:40:18 <christianliebel> Lu: Not sure
08:40:43 <christianliebel> xiaoqian: What other APIs are required?
08:40:53 <christianliebel> Snugug: Service Workers, Periodic Background Sync
08:41:05 <christianliebel> Looking at the sample code, that was the two primary ones
08:41:12 <christianliebel> Apart from that, it builds on top of them
08:42:08 <christianliebel> s/???/360
08:43:10 <christianliebel> dmurph: Did you put any more thought into ???
08:43:38 <christianliebel> start_urls, service worker etc.
08:44:52 <christianliebel> Kagami: We have a negative standards position on Perodic Background Sync, we are worried about potential tracking when scripts run in the background
08:45:10 <christianliebel> Snugug: I’m not sure if Periodic Background Sync is a hard dependency.
08:45:24 <christianliebel> The API is used to periodically update the data in the background.
08:46:55 <christianliebel> ???: Don’t understand why template is enough
08:47:52 <christianliebel> On our vision OS, I need to have some layout. Apple uses custom AI.
08:48:00 <christianliebel> Within some constraints.
08:48:40 <christianliebel> Snugug: That's why I think the template should only be in v0
08:49:24 <christianliebel> Think this is a good quick win, as the rest is harder to specify across platforms
08:49:37 <christianliebel> And then we extend from there, and provide deeper customization
08:50:15 <christianliebel> ???: We could parse it and render it on our platform-specific surfaces.
08:50:47 <christianliebel> Siyaman: We look at the code in your extension, extract it out and render a native UI.
08:50:58 <christianliebel> You could have 3D models, and we can render them in a native application.
08:51:15 <christianliebel> dmurph: Is this running in the web view?
08:51:26 <christianliebel> Siyaman: Hybrid approach, you can have your model in a web view, or render it outside of it.
08:52:00 <christianliebel> Snugug: Android team says that running WebViews in Android would not be an option. So starting like that would hinder broader adoption.
08:52:10 <christianliebel> But we do want to get to a point where we get fully customized widgets.
08:52:20 <christianliebel> Want to hit the 60…70 percent use case.
08:52:24 <christianliebel> RRSAgent, draft minutes
08:52:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/13-pwa-widgets-minutes.html christianliebel
08:52:34 <christianliebel> Do you have documentation that you can throw on IRC?
08:53:37 <christianliebel> Siyaman: Sure.
08:54:07 <christianliebel> ???: We get material, etc. from the browser and render it natively in visionOS
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08:54:30 <christianliebel> Snugug: Can see a potential path in defining Web Components and translating that to native code.
08:56:00 <christianliebel> Kagami: Discussed this with web widgets as iframes on the "new tab" page, but we don't like untrusted UI in browser UI.
08:56:09 <christianliebel> So if you go ahead with this, rather with the v0 option.
08:56:28 <Siyaman> We built https://webspatial.dev to allow HTML,CSS,JS Web content along with native 3D content to appear on visionOS
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08:57:15 <christianliebel> Snugug: Quick poll on IRC?
08:57:44 <christianliebel> Was this a compelling enough conversation that you think we should bring this to the web platform? (options: yes, ask me later…)
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08:58:12 <christianliebel> Kagami: why not?
08:58:16 <dmurph> dmurph: seems not bad?
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08:59:02 <Yoshisato> sounds reasonable to discuss there.
08:59:23 <christianliebel> scheib: Widgets have been come up so many times, they have all failed.
09:00:05 <dmurph> christianliebel: I don't hear this as a thing that developers need. I'm sure they want to do it, but for majority of devs I'm sure it's not so interesting
09:00:16 <dmurph> christianliebel: there might be other more important things to solve
09:00:31 <dmurph> Sam: So it might be a good action item to get feedback from devs.
09:00:47 <dmurph> christianliebel: I think this API is for facebook, pinterest, and that class of application, but maybe not others
09:00:56 <dmurph> Sam: yes, those applications are asking me for this, so yes
09:01:12 <dmurph> christianliebel: Yes it's probably very important for them
09:01:12 <Siyaman> Yes
09:01:15 <dmurph> overall: why not?
09:01:50 <dmurph> Sam: ok, action item for what types of developer might need this, then moving from edge explainer to webapps wg or incubation. Also what types of templates
09:02:14 <dmurph> (and what is missing from the other standards, and this explainer)
09:02:57 <christianliebel> RRSAgent, draft minutes
09:02:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/13-pwa-widgets-minutes.html christianliebel
09:03:22 <christianliebel> (Static/dynamic widgets)
09:03:24 <christianliebel> RRSAgent, draft minutes
09:03:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/13-pwa-widgets-minutes.html christianliebel
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13:32:38 <tidoust> RRSAgent, bye
13:32:38 <RRSAgent> I see no action items