23:57:41 RRSAgent has joined #miniapp 23:57:46 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/11/13-miniapp-irc 23:57:46 RRSAgent, make logs Public 23:57:47 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), xiaoqian 23:57:57 meeting: MiniApps Ecosystem Community Group, MiniApps Working Group, High-Performance Baseline for Web Apps CG Joint Meeting 23:58:07 chair: Martin 23:58:22 present+ 23:58:31 scribe: xiaoqian 23:58:39 RRSAgent, make minutes 23:58:40 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/13-miniapp-minutes.html xiaoqian 23:58:53 martin has joined #miniapp 23:59:01 present+ Bryan Ellis 23:59:06 present+ Da Bin 23:59:10 present+ Ding Wei 23:59:24 present+ Niklas 00:00:38 Dingwei has joined #miniapp 00:00:57 Dingwei3 has joined #miniapp 00:01:06 item+ Towards a High Performance Web 00:01:13 present+ 00:01:26 item+ Ant Group's Vision 00:01:38 item+ Status of Specs 00:01:53 item+ Re-Chartering 00:01:59 tako has joined #miniapp 00:02:20 item Logistics & Welcome 00:02:22 chunming has joined #miniapp 00:02:57 erisu has joined #miniapp 00:03:08 present+ 00:03:33 bkardell has joined #miniapp 00:03:41 present+ 00:03:49 present+ 00:03:59 present+ 00:04:17 niklasmerz has joined #miniapp 00:04:19 topic: Logistics & Welcome 00:04:26 present+ 00:04:31 martin: welcome everyone! 00:05:21 ... we will have a presentation from Vic online about how to towards a high-perf web 00:06:21 ... the second topic will be from Yu Sen on their perspective on the status of Miniapps and the vision towards AI & MiniApps 00:06:38 jyasskin has joined #miniapp 00:06:47 scribe+ 00:06:49 present+ 00:07:11 topic High Performance (Tencent) 00:07:34 [Presentation @@@to add slides] 00:07:47 Vic Yao's slides -> https://web.wujicode.cn/page/next_web_en 00:07:47 vic: Web has a long history 00:08:09 ... Most of the users spend their time on native apps, not the web 00:08:24 ... Users keeps away of the web 00:08:42 ... Many native apps still use web for their content 00:09:04 ... Many web framework appeared (e.g., React Native) 00:09:10 ... we call for a web evolution 00:09:28 ... Move beyond desktop, attract more devices 00:09:57 s/@@@to add slides/https://web.wujicode.cn/page/next_web_en 00:10:14 [Seamless browser experience slide] 00:10:46 ... Web loading is hard, one page at a time, blank screens... 00:11:00 ... Native app smoother 00:11:10 ... reconstruct the web infrastructure 00:11:21 [Learning from MiniApps slide] 00:11:41 ... MiniApps only need a small package 00:11:47 ... (2MB max) 00:12:18 ... MiniApps provide low level API for developers 00:12:40 ... Reduce JS size for better performance 00:12:55 ... MiniApps introduce a new way for computing 00:13:08 ... MiniApps do not allow dynamic JS execution. 00:13:27 ... This mean we should compile ahead of execution 00:14:22 ... Improve security, AOT increases enhancement, you control better the origin 00:14:54 ... Less modifications, and little flexibility 00:15:04 [slide: Different UI code languages] 00:15:24 ... HTML is a document with no separation of data and structure 00:16:02 ... MiniApp's WXML (similar to Vue,js, Angular, MiniApps...) 00:16:14 ... I don't think a developer would like it 00:16:37 [Tech selection summary slide] 00:16:57 [How good is the MiniApps solution] 00:17:22 vic: Touch-screen friendly and friendly for developers 00:17:35 ... Bottleneck is JS 00:17:57 ... Difficutlt to load in watches and other devices 00:18:11 [JS original sin - slide] 00:18:37 ... JS huge memory comsumption 00:18:48 present+ Thomas 00:19:16 vic: React Native has been trying to solve this 00:20:06 ... Comparison between JS and static Hermes (graph) 00:20:29 RRSAgent, make minutes 00:20:30 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/13-miniapp-minutes.html xiaoqian 00:20:36 ... Improvement, better performance 00:21:23 tomayac has joined #miniapp 00:21:29 Present+ Thomas_Steiner 00:21:32 vic: WASM+WASI cross platfrorm, cross platform 00:21:50 ... UI layer: we should abandon the traditional HTML elements 00:21:56 ... we should define new elements 00:22:03 ... We can simplify them 00:22:29 ... We should define UI templates, and encapsulate as WASI 00:22:36 [slide - Logic Layer] 00:22:55 vic: Developer can write logic in JS 00:23:27 ... my first choice would be replace JS with AssemblyScript and compile to WASM 00:23:44 ... This would open the Web to other languages 00:23:57 ... Rust, C++, Go, Python 00:24:54 ... There are zero-cost solutions: WebAssembly Component Model + WebASsembly Interface Types 00:25:52 ... This could help us support this on more devices 00:26:02 ... Better performance int the end 00:26:15 [Hig Perf. Web Solution summary slide] 00:26:42 ... WASM, threading, data-driven and streamlined CSS 00:27:08 ... precompilation, and WebAssembly Component Model + WIT 00:27:30 q+ 00:27:39 ack jyasskin 00:28:11 jyasskin: What parts exists and what are needed from the different W3C WGs? 00:28:16 q+ 00:28:42 vic: Early idea. This is not new, this comes from other platforms/ecosystems 00:28:57 ... this technology could be moved to the High Performance 00:28:59 q- 00:29:40 jyasskin: This is not entirely true. We should talk more 00:29:49 q+ 00:30:00 ... there are many things that can improve it 00:30:08 ... OpenUI... 00:30:29 vic: @@@ 00:30:33 q? 00:30:45 ack bkardell 00:31:26 bkardell: Jeffrey mentioned CSP. Service workers work to help 00:31:47 ... We should keep talking and involve other groups 00:32:26 Slideset: https://web.wujicode.cn/page/next_web_en 00:32:43 s/@@@/totally agree, it'd be great if we can have APIs to interoperate with the DOM and HTML from WASM, so web developers can continue working on the UIs as what we want 00:32:43 bkardell: The web by evolution, not revolution. This has worked well 00:33:02 ... PWA, and other technologies like Electron 00:33:18 ... There we can find synergies, to make valuable progress. 00:33:38 vic: Yes, we tried several times, but it didn't work 00:33:53 q+ 00:34:20 ... Today is different, not only desktop. There are many technologies are there is fragmentation 00:34:34 Lei_Zhao has joined #miniapp 00:34:36 ... Why Snapchat has implemented the cross platform projects? 00:34:50 ... their apps are easy to run 00:35:02 q? 00:35:33 https://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/evergreen-web/#subsetting is relevant. 00:35:52 vic: Using specific platform-specific SDKs is easier for developers 00:36:03 ack jyasskin 00:36:22 jyasskin: It would be useful to create a list of the things that do not work on the web 00:36:39 ... I would like to work together with the TAG to see how we can solve it 00:37:03 ... It think it could be wrong to say that Mobile web is different 00:37:14 ... it's dangerous to create subsets 00:37:29 ... To bring everyone into the full capabilities 00:37:40 q? 00:37:42 q+ limin 00:37:56 ask li 00:38:00 ack li 00:38:28 limin: WASM is excellent for high-computation 00:38:54 ... I would like to understand, how often you need these requirements for high computation 00:38:56 Haili has joined #miniapp 00:39:40 ... If you deal with code that doesn't change, it looks like an implementation issue, more than standards 00:40:05 vic: Traditional Web , 90% of web works well. 00:40:11 ... q? 00:40:16 q? 00:40:32 ... nobody wants to use a mobile page on mobile phone 00:40:36 shubhamg13 has joined #miniapp 00:40:52 ... it is not a subset. We can provide a new kernel 00:41:14 ... one for traditional web and another one for the smart devices 00:41:20 q? 00:41:23 q+ 00:41:33 ack jyasskin 00:42:07 jyasskin: We should be specific. Browsers are responsible, not JS itself 00:42:21 vic: It cost more power if you run JS 00:42:38 ... Facebook built their app in HTML5 00:42:42 Aung2 has joined #miniapp 00:42:48 ... but not well enough 00:42:49 q? 00:43:36 martin: I like to idea of creating a list of things that are not working and lowering the performance 00:43:40 Vic: sure! 00:43:57 s/to idea/the idea 00:44:15 martin: will sync-up later! 00:44:43 topic: MiniApp and Mobile Web in AI Era 00:44:59 action: Vic to draft a list of the things missing in the Web standards 00:45:25 topic Ant Group's Vision (Yu Sen) 00:45:59 [Yu Sen presentation @@@to add prez] 00:46:08 Siyaman has joined #miniapp 00:46:12 [State of Alipay MiniApps] 00:46:35 yusen: An Group is focused on inclusion 00:46:48 ... Payment platform and Digital Open Platform 00:47:18 ... Scan a QR code, order, pay 00:47:41 ... Cross platform, iPhone, Android, HarmonyOS 00:47:53 ... MiniApps can run in multiple super-apps 00:48:33 ... Miniapps also can run on various devices, inc. auto 00:48:49 [summary of Mobile tech and MiniApp tech.] 00:49:17 ... MiniApps use the web (using a DSL) 00:49:28 ... Developers use IDEs and tools 00:49:55 [MiniApp Runtime and tools for developers] 00:50:21 ... MiniApps are similar to web 00:50:37 ... How do we optimize rendering and execution? 00:50:50 ... multiple threads? 00:51:16 ... code linking and completion. Open source facilitates end to end testing 00:51:34 ... AI, can GPU, NPU support? 00:51:45 [next section: Future] 00:52:06 yusen: AI supports developers with coding 00:52:54 ... AI also support users. Rendering environment for chatting... Generative UIs 00:53:05 ... LLMs to operate 00:53:48 yusen: Challenge in Chatting: multi-modal speech to text 00:54:27 [Challenge in Chatting slide] 00:54:50 ... Developers must figure out what spec to follow 00:55:46 yusen: From AI perspective, do we need a subset of the web standards? 00:55:59 [Challenge in Operating] 00:56:45 yusen: How to extract all the information and let AI understand it 00:57:03 ... We must introduce a new API for agentic web 00:57:31 ... How automatic frameworks support automation of e2e testing 00:58:48 [Security and Privacy slide] 00:59:21 yusen: We need permissions (like sensors) 00:59:38 ... Execution of dynamic content and scripts 00:59:51 ... These require efforts 01:00:03 q? 01:00:10 q+ 01:00:19 ask bkardell 01:00:25 ack bkardell 01:00:39 bkardell: There are superapps, and miniapps 01:00:57 ... Are they not standardized? 01:01:23 yusen: There are documents, but not describe accurate behavior 01:01:56 bkbardell: Any corresponding... 01:02:05 yusen: we are working on open source 01:02:19 bkbardell: Is there a WPT 01:02:39 s/WPT/WPT? 01:02:49 [xiaoxian translating] 01:03:29 yusen: Capability of Alipay, we run the same behavior across platforms 01:04:11 martin: this has been something we want to discuss in the working group 01:04:26 ... they are very similar in API and the behavior 01:04:31 The analysis Martin was referencing: https://web.dev/explore/mini-apps 01:04:39 ... most of them are following the document of the WeChat mini program 01:05:15 ... but there are definitely differences, especially the access to the OS capacities 01:05:33 ... we are going to talk about in a later session 01:06:08 ... we are also working on a project to find the common set of elements, find a way to create them 01:06:17 ... but it's simply not there yet 01:06:20 q+ 01:06:26 q+ 01:06:32 ack Dingwei3 01:06:38 Wei_Ding: You sen talked about AI and the Web 01:07:05 ... if you have any user requirements, also it's focusing on the MiniApp 01:07:19 q+ 01:07:19 ... perhaps in the future we can consider bringing these ideas to the Web AI IG 01:07:20 liminzhu has joined #miniapp 01:07:22 +1 01:07:30 act Dingwei 01:07:34 ack Dingwei3 01:07:43 act next 01:07:47 Test suite for MiniApps: https://github.com/w3c/miniapp-tests 01:07:51 ack next 01:08:00 ack next 01:08:47 martin: talking about the lack of performance, do you have any performance issues with MiniApps? 01:09:15 yusen: we have been spending a lot of effort on performance, especially on the JS execution 01:09:29 ... my major concern is that JS has a very large ecosystem 01:09:39 ... the developers use JS 01:09:50 ... we should adopt to the ecosystem 01:10:17 ... we should also work harder to make sure the ecosystem can work with MiniApps 01:10:31 q? 01:10:32 ... especially on Mobile 01:10:40 ack bkardell 01:11:01 bkardell: I'd like to connect you with a few other groups that might be interested in these topics 01:11:09 ... OpenUI is an example 01:11:47 ... they are working with the Developers and a few companies to create a few catalogs and components that are currently lacking in the Web 01:11:56 ... we can working together 01:12:29 ... we can also get review from the community, f.ex, get feedback from the a11y groups 01:12:53 +1 01:13:10 ... they can also help to train the AI components 01:13:13 +1 (I'm following the CG) 01:13:40 yusen: these are very helpful and fruitful suggestions 01:14:04 ... companies will soon evolve their user interface 01:14:18 Shubham: You mentioned Taobo 01:15:10 ... If I use Taobo in the native app or as miniapp, is there any difference? 01:15:22 present+ Shubham 01:15:38 [xiaoqian translating] 01:15:53 s/xiaoxian/xiaoqian 01:16:12 yusen: Some funtions are limited in the miniapp 01:16:49 Subham: Any limitation in terms of security (credentials) 01:16:56 tako has joined #miniapp 01:17:10 yusen: There is full taobo miniapp in alipay, only minor functions 01:17:15 ... Security is the same 01:17:21 ... Both are protected 01:17:23 q? 01:17:53 Siyaman has joined #miniapp 01:18:27 topic: MiniApps Specs: Status 01:18:52 Martin: most of the current documents in the MiniApps are stable 01:19:03 ... but we haven't started the implementation yet 01:19:11 ... which is problematic 01:19:59 [martin introduces the specs in the group] 01:21:40 jing has joined #miniapp 01:22:54 q？ 01:23:35 limin: are mini apps widgets and quick apps web apps hosted in webview as well? 01:24:06 martin: yes, although in a slightly different way 01:24:47 [slides: main challenges for final developers] 01:25:10 [slide#10 Taro: Cross-Platform Framework] 01:25:45 [slide#11 Taro Sample Code] 01:25:57 q+ 01:26:05 This looks worse than div soup... 01:26:25 jyasskin: ^^ 01:26:46 ... why are they not use semantic tags 01:27:19 martin: you can, I removed some of the slides 01:27:48 bkardell: [suggestion on reuse the standards...] 01:28:03 Yusen: Taro is a totally React Framework 01:28:19 ... there are many other MiniApps Frameworks in China 01:28:49 bkardell: they don't use DOM, so there will be accessibility issues 01:29:43 martin: they do include aria, so there is possibility to do it, but you need to do it manually 01:30:13 [slide#13 MiniApps Markup Elements] 01:30:26 Siyaman has joined #miniapp 01:31:32 martin: image in MiniApps is called image, instead of img sync with the web 01:31:44 ... an example of differences 01:31:50 note the tabs answer on that slide, please don't use it 01:31:54 chiace has joined #miniapp 01:32:16 [slides#12 MiniApps APIs Gap] 01:33:39 bkardell: what is the zip file management about? 01:34:04 martin: something similar to gzip in packaging and loading 01:34:39 [coffee break] 01:34:54 niklas has joined #miniapp 01:36:34 RRSAgent, make minutes 01:36:36 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/13-miniapp-minutes.html xiaoqian 01:38:10 [we'll start at 1100] 01:38:31 Mentioned the API gap analysis: https://github.com/w3c/miniapp-components/blob/main/docs/gap-analysis-api.md 01:39:01 Mentioned Web Vs MiniApps element analysis: https://github.com/w3c/miniapp-components/blob/main/docs/gap-analysis-elements.md 01:39:09 Non exhaustive, just informative 01:52:13 Euclid has joined #miniapp 01:52:19 q+ 01:52:25 q- 01:52:29 Haili has joined #miniapp 01:52:46 RRSAgent, make minutes 01:52:48 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/13-miniapp-minutes.html xiaoqian 02:02:50 scribe+ 02:03:53 [martin shows a demo of MiniApps using pure web techs] 02:04:01 Martin: Demonstrating "Pure Web" SuperApp. 02:04:24 niklas has joined #miniapp 02:04:32 Siyaman has joined #miniapp 02:04:49 Martin: I was listening to experts from Widget yesterday. How complex to run several webviews simultaneously? 02:04:53 tako has joined #miniapp 02:06:44 Steven8 has joined #miniapp 02:06:50 erisu has joined #miniapp 02:06:50 Martin: 02:06:50 1. Can we reuse something from PWA? 02:06:50 2. Isolated Web app? 02:06:50 3. High-performance engines? 02:07:38 Martin: Miniapp is popular in Asia. Conversation with Ryan: Can we reuse internationalization/security web standards? 02:08:10 Martin: Need support from vendors. We don't have concrete super app to implement these yet. 02:10:25 Martin: Only one miniapp on Windows? Right, Xiaoqian? 02:10:42 Xiaoqian: Not sure project abandoned or not. Not many interest for miniapp in Desktop. 02:11:44 q+ 02:12:25 q- 02:12:36 Martin: Questions? 02:13:08 jyassin: What WebViews are using these superapps? 02:13:21 xiaoqian: OS-specific webviews 02:13:46 s/jyasskin/bkardell/ 02:13:46 ... When we launched the group, Miniapps was really successful 02:13:50 s/jyassin/bkardell/ 02:14:02 ... 100.000s Miniapp existing 02:15:08 xiaoqian: We considered that the web could be an option for an homogeneous way to develop MiniApps 02:15:59 ... One feature of MiniApp uses is the access to the OS native APIs 02:16:07 q? 02:16:15 ack next 02:16:36 Simon has joined #miniapp 02:16:44 q? 02:17:12 xiaoqian: We want to guarantee to continue with the One Web principle 02:18:15 martin: Not many powerful features 02:18:54 bkardell: some APIs you mentioned like step counter, etc... 02:19:17 martin: Perhaps can be implemented if needed 02:19:24 q+ 02:20:21 bkardell: At some layer it makes sense collaborate with MiniApps. The more we can collaborate, the better choices 02:20:24 ack next 02:20:36 niklas: Cordova, Apache, WebViews CG 02:20:55 xiaoqian: Improvements to WebView would be great news to MiniApps. 02:20:56 ... From other coversations with WVs providers... 02:21:13 ... Number 1 priority is performance and stability 02:21:24 ... Good sign for MiniApps and WebViews 02:21:26 Haili has joined #miniapp 02:21:35 ... Nothing related to standards but the implementations 02:22:33 ... In our topic is hard to develop the standards. MiniApps might face the same challenge 02:22:44 xiaoqian: we have tried hard in our group. 02:23:50 ... Packaging was the more controversial 02:23:52 q? 02:23:52 q+ 02:23:57 https://chromeos.dev/en/tutorials/getting-started-with-isolated-web-apps/2 02:24:01 ack next 02:24:28 tomayac: IWA could have a good solution for these challenges 02:24:30 q+ 02:24:39 ... security, packaging, etc. 02:24:55 q? 02:25:07 ack next 02:25:30 greengrape has joined #miniapp 02:25:57 martin: what we want to achieve is similar 02:26:26 ... sandbox in the browsers/ superapps 02:26:38 ... we need to find a way to ensure the security 02:27:29 simon: basically IWA could like to solve all these same problems 02:27:40 ... packaging 02:28:07 ... please file issues, make sure it can happen in the platform 02:28:38 IWA == isolated web app 02:28:51 martin: if we are to create something new, why not work with the other vendors and make the most of the Web 02:29:29 q? 02:29:34 simon: from a high level, it sounds similar 02:29:44 q+ 02:29:51 ack next 02:30:03 xiaoqian: What is the plan of IWA in W3C? 02:30:30 ... Will you move this to specific WG? 02:30:46 ... Now we are in WICG. Suggestions welcome 02:31:17 https://github.com/WICG/isolated-web-apps 02:31:33 https://github.com/WICG/direct-sockets 02:31:36 jyasskin: is it possible to standardize IWA in MiniApps WG 02:31:59 https://github.com/WICG/web-smart-card 02:32:18 (above a couple of examples on launched APIs that went through standardization) 02:32:20 ... I'm not talking across groups. It will be good for the group, to mention explicitly that you want to solve this challenge 02:33:17 ... you have concrete things to be standardized in the WG 02:33:34 xiaoqian: We want to close the gap with the Web. 02:34:06 We should avoid duplicates 02:35:00 jyasskin: Recommendation to have a detailed list of relations/collaborations in the charter 02:35:26 xiaoqian: Thomas did a great job analyzing MiniApps. Any comments? 02:35:50 tomayac: Some isolated proposals could fit in IWA works 02:36:37