00:09:10 RRSAgent has joined #chinese-web 00:09:14 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/11/13-chinese-web-irc 00:09:21 zakim, this is Chinese IG meeting during TPAC2025 00:09:21 got it, angel 00:09:38 chair: AnQing 00:09:43 scribe: angel 00:10:03 present+ AnQing, WeiDing, Xueyuan, Chunming, LeiZhao 00:10:15 present+ Angel 00:10:22 present+MartinA 00:10:57 Present+ Fuqiao 00:11:05 AnQing: let's get started 00:11:29 ...will not say much about what this group is doing, since every one is quite familiar with this group 00:12:05 xfq has joined #chinese-web 00:12:10 present+ 00:12:15 RRSAgent, make minutes 00:12:16 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/13-chinese-web-minutes.html xfq 00:12:36 ...welcome all, and first, let's talk about Review the Chinese Web IG's activities since last TPAC 00:12:44 ...give hand it over to Xueyuan 00:17:03 Xueyuan: briefly about Chinese IG, the main objective of this group includes identifying requirements and use cases 00:17:18 ...build a community of Chiense members to be connected to W3C global community 00:17:30 ...didscuss tech dieas and explore potential proposals 00:17:41 ...promote standards testing and implementaiton 00:17:56 ...organize local events to identify member needs 00:18:23 ...this group is in collabration with Chinese Layout TF, MiniApps WG and MiniApps CG 00:18:28 ...High-perf Baseline CG 00:19:00 ... TAG, WebApp WG, Web Platfrom Incubator CG, Media and Entertainment IG 00:19:10 ...Web of Things IG & WG 00:19:14 ...also the APA WG 00:19:23 ...about activities of this group 00:19:46 ...this group does not travel a lot, but it has quite some events in China 00:20:14 ...we had a WebEvolve online event in Jan to talk about SOLID 00:20:32 ...the WebEvolve event is a W3C event open to public 00:21:10 ...about 50 attendees joint this event online 00:21:18 ...there is an event report on the website 00:21:53 ...in May 2024, this group had an event discussing ML, WebGPU and media related tech 00:22:05 ...20 talks, 90+ attendees on line 00:22:16 ...15000 ppl watch this event on line 00:22:30 ...all talked recored and now with subtitles ready 00:23:33 ...in June 2025, we had an online event focusing on immersive tech used in internatinal games such as Olympic games and world cup 00:23:44 ...China Mobile co-organized this event with W3C 00:24:00 ...we also had an event talking about identity tech, standards and policy in CHina 00:24:04 ...PLH joint this event 00:24:13 ...and the identity community in CHina 00:24:42 ...in Sep 2024, Simone joint the Inclusion coference in Shanghai, introducing W3C work on identity and related security work 00:25:11 ...there was also an event on DID in late Oct in Beijing, this event called GOSIM 00:25:37 ...Drummond the edior of DID WG joint the event, together with other 30 attendees 00:25:51 ...Also a NGI track during GOSIM too 00:26:06 ...W3C also attended the World Internet COnference in Wuzhen 00:26:33 ...W3C had a booth, spoke at the Web tech forum and did out reach to CHnese members who were there 00:26:53 ...in Jan 2025, we had an event about WebAI and High-perf Web APP 00:27:10 ...the high-perf baseline CG was set up later after this event 00:27:34 ...and in 2025 Sep, the WebEvolve annual conference was helded in Hangzhou 00:27:42 ...it was a 2-day event 00:27:53 ...Day 1 was about high-perf App 00:27:59 ...Day 2 was about AI 00:28:20 ...26 talks, 100 attendees on site and 15000 obsevers online 00:28:59 ...in Sep 2025, we attended the INclusion conference 2025 as well 00:29:18 ...talked about security and identity by Simone 00:29:50 ...right before TPAC, Seth attended the World Internet Conference 2025 online and gave a talk about next generation of identity 00:29:59 ...so far there are 62 participants 00:30:13 ...3 co-chairs from Alibaba, Huawei and Interl 00:30:26 ...there are comminication channels for the group 00:30:34 ...welcome to join us! 00:31:13 Dingwei has joined #chinese-web 00:31:14 ...this group speaks both Chinese and English 00:31:23 q? 00:31:31 AnQing: thank you Xueyuan for the intro! 00:31:42 q+ 00:32:08 Mokoto san: a question to ask 00:32:27 ...soem specs are very language and cultuaal depending 00:33:23 ...what did the JP do, we translate and articipate in international standards work 00:33:36 ...what happends if internaitonal standards are biased 00:33:55 ...in the past I created HTML JP @@! 00:34:10 ...there were some issues related to JP specific 00:34:24 ...I was asked to generate some issues 00:35:06 s/HTML JP @@/XML Japanese Application Profile 00:35:07 ...it was a member submittion to W3C, W3C members paid attention to it 00:35:21 ...in the case of JLreq 00:35:33 ...it addresses the JP layout requirements 00:35:39 ...the W3C groups follow that doc 00:35:44 ...it is a very good example 00:35:53 ...it is a requirement doc only, not a W3C spec 00:36:07 ...in the case of CSS, ppl are aware of the cultural and language specific issues 00:36:34 ...I assume it's the case for other languages in CSS WG 00:36:39 ...but not for other groups maybe 00:36:59 ...so JP is in a difficult position, if we just translate W3C spec 00:37:20 ...if we create a diff one such as WCAG, ppl say we fork another standards 00:37:22 q+ 00:38:06 ...would like to know what you guys are thinking about it 00:38:17 Martin: I think it's important what you mentioned 00:38:35 ...the WCAG WG would appriciate feedback like this 00:38:45 ...maybe the HR will address it 00:39:18 q+ to ask any specific cultural issues 00:39:19 ...I think W3C community will pay attention to is 00:39:29 Mokota san: not sure if it would work this way 00:39:45 ...e.g. I filed an issue in I18N 00:40:24 Fuqiao: as someone from the I18N group, I would say we do pay attention to the I18N issue 00:40:33 ...but not sure what happended for WCAG2 00:40:37 ack mart 00:40:38 lola has joined #chinese-web 00:40:49 present + 00:41:02 Fuqiao: in China, we are lack of research in some layout topics 00:41:06 present+ 00:41:18 q+ on another different topic (about ecosystem in China) 00:41:34 ...not so much papers on this topic 00:41:47 q++ 00:41:51 ...if we nee to met the guidelines, it sohld be led by reseach 00:41:53 qq+ 00:42:07 s/nee to met/need to meet 00:42:17 q-+ 00:42:43 Mokota san: I read some books and papers on a11y, diff ppl say diff things 00:42:52 ...hard to reach consensus 00:43:17 Mokota san: what do you CHinese ppl do on W3C reoomendations? 00:43:41 Lola: what does JP do now? 00:44:04 MOkota: we do not create modifications 00:44:12 ack lola 00:44:12 lola, you wanted to react to martinA 00:44:25 ...now I am thinking about modifications 00:44:34 scribe+ 00:45:04 angel: I want to respond to Mokoto san about what we do in China 00:46:00 ... the Chinese community laughed this accessibility national standard working group, and invited W3C people to join the group 00:46:14 ... lookin into WCAG 2.2 00:46:35 ... with the goal to harmonize the standard 00:48:34 q+ 00:48:40 ack angel 00:48:55 ... We adopted about 90% of the WCAG literal translation as-is. The remaining 10% involved modifications, primarily by lowering the threshold for some success criteria. 00:49:14 scribe- 00:49:23 ack dingwei 00:49:23 Dingwei, you wanted to ask any specific cultural issues 00:49:39 DingWei: I think we have comprehensive ways to adopt internaitonals standards 00:49:56 ...in China, ISO and IEC have they way into local standands 00:50:14 ...is it possible if we could start a repo to discuss it 00:50:32 PaolaDM has joined #chinese-web 00:50:33 s/laughed/launched/ 00:50:50 ...we have good methodology to that 00:52:01 q? 00:52:25 ack martinA 00:52:25 martinA, you wanted to comment on another different topic (about ecosystem in China) 00:53:12 Martin: we had an interesting project on this 00:54:07 ...@@2 00:54:11 https://www.w3.org/community/opentrack/2025/11/11/digital-credentials-in-sports-wallets-for-athletics/ 00:54:22 ...we have started a CG in W3C 00:55:58 ...hopefully you can onboard some W3C members on this 00:56:03 zakim, ack chunming 00:56:03 I see no one on the speaker queue 00:56:05 q? 00:56:11 Chunming: the IG do not publish W3C Recs 00:56:19 ...it only provides a forum to discuss ideas 00:56:35 ...hopefully we could incubute new groups for further standards work 00:56:49 ...this might be the way to influence the standards work 00:56:58 ...currently we have very good local events to incuate 00:57:00 s/@@2/A project on credentials in sports, and standardizing the documents (verifiable credentials). Started in Europe, but global outreach. If you have any contact in China, please let me know. 00:57:00 MURATA has joined #chinese-web 00:57:07 present+ 00:57:16 ...there are also good W3C mechamisms to incubate ideas as well 00:57:29 ...we could try to link to them and work togehter with them 00:57:36 Anqing: very good discussion 00:57:45 ...we can keep this in mind 00:57:54 ...the scope of this group is a bigger topic 00:58:02 ...we can talk about it later 00:58:14 ...will hand the meeting to my co-chair WanLin 00:58:23 TOpic: Miniapps standards update 00:58:36 which are the authorities in handling digital identities in eu and china? 00:58:37 ...let's hear it from Martin the Co-chair of Miniapps WG 00:58:41 slides: https://espinr.github.io/talks/2025/1113-MiniApps-TPAC-ChineseIG/index.html 00:59:05 ...will intro the the Mniapps standards activities 00:59:29 ...there is an ecosystem of Miniapps in China, as well as in the world 00:59:48 ...if you search the Miniapps outside of China in 2016 00:59:59 ...there was limited content you could find 01:00:12 ...but now the Miniapps are growing outside of China as well 01:00:32 ...we can find various Miniapps used in many parts of the world 01:00:38 ...most of the activities are in Asia 01:00:43 ...some are in EU 01:01:05 ...there are something similar like Light apps 01:01:18 ...some are running on the OS 01:01:24 ...some are like widget 01:02:29 ...these miniapps can run on various platforms, such as native apps, OSs, or other forms 01:02:42 ...some can run within a broswers as well 01:03:00 ...there are similarities between the super apps and miniapps 01:03:33 ...the main challlenges we have in the WG is how to enhance the UX 01:04:05 ...wrt Development: how to code my MiniApp for n+1 SuperApps 01:04:30 ...we have specific elements, APIs, .. 01:04:45 ...wrt Publication: how to deliver it on different platforms (i.e., registration, validation, maintenance) 01:05:14 ...a big pain point for developers 01:05:21 Haili has joined #chinese-web 01:05:28 ...and also not easy wrt versioning and maintenance... 01:05:53 ...we began the work in the Chinese IG with a white paper on Miniapps in 2020 01:06:03 ...in 2021, we launched the Miniapps WG 01:06:11 ...we started to gain attention from the community 01:06:47 ...the deliverables of this group got mentioned in @@3 in EU 01:07:07 ...we involved the whitepaper bu adding more content into it 01:07:17 ...e.g. practices in CHina, tech structure 01:07:35 ...in TPAC2023, we started the review and found some security issues 01:07:45 ...we did some fix work and continued the conversatoin 01:07:53 ...and then we slowed down a bit 01:08:29 ...now we have 6 docs in the WG 01:09:16 ...about Miniapps lifecycle, addressing, widget req, packaging, and components 01:10:18 ...and also working on address some issues, e.g. origin related security isseus 01:10:30 ...we did an anlysis of the Miinapps API gap 01:10:38 ...here is a summary 01:11:01 ...some main stream super apps are analyized here 01:11:17 ...we have a long list of APIs used by the super apps 01:11:37 ...trying to find tou if there is a standards in W3C to support the requirements MiniAPps has 01:12:00 lola has joined #chinese-web 01:12:00 ...about the market elements, it is quite similar, since based on HTML 01:12:33 ...there are some specific element depending on platfrom which can be replaced by web componets or standard HTML element 01:12:53 ...some current practices can be replaced by W3C standards 01:13:03 ...we had the discussionabout mobile web engines 01:13:17 ...most of the dicussions was about Miniapps 01:13:28 ..e.g. how to build engine for Miniapps 01:13:40 ...how to represent the Miniapps with webview 01:13:53 ...it is possible to create lighter engines for Miniapps 01:14:11 ...these engines can support other web-based apps 01:14:27 ...thah is also relatd to the high-perf baseline CG work 01:14:50 ...that group wants to create more efficient approach for cross-platform mobile app 01:15:29 [Martin demos a Miniapp-like apps on mobile] 01:15:43 ...the Miniapps are light, can leverage the Web 01:15:57 ...they are really cross platforms 01:16:08 ...there are many opportunities 01:16:25 ...MiniAPps are promising in Asia, but still unknown in other parts of the world 01:16:39 ...but the interests is growing out side of Aisa 01:17:14 ...the merits of Web standards is that Web standards bring security, internationalization, accessibility by default 01:17:38 ...some platforms might have these considerations, but not all 01:17:59 ...we will continue the Miniapps work 01:18:05 ...will do the recharting 01:18:10 ...and add new work 01:18:17 ...are ready to discuss the new requirements 01:18:22 ...have new tech to consider 01:18:36 ...this new isolated web app is something to consider 01:18:54 ...e.g. packaging, distribution through HTTP 01:19:06 ...we have developers interested in this 01:19:54 ...we are also considering to mrge the work with High-Performance Engines work, maybe we could work together on dedicate and performant web engines 01:20:03 ...welcome to join our meeting tomorrow 01:20:15 ...happy to have more feedback 01:20:19 lola has joined #chinese-web 01:20:23 q+ 01:20:27 q+ 01:20:33 ack lola 01:20:38 q? 01:20:44 Lola: thank you for the informative talk 01:20:47 Slides: http://espinr.github.io/talks/2025/1113-MiniApps-TPAC-ChineseIG 01:20:48 ...2 questions 01:20:57 ...what's the time for the meeting you mentioned tomorrow? 01:21:00 Martin: 9 am 01:21:06 tomorrow's meeting: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/ee9d0329-721e-4364-9cf5-0e96b79558ea/ 01:21:22 Lola: you mentioned aobut the struggle for develpers to build for multi platforms 01:21:40 ...do you foresee leveraging web stnadards can help with the issue? 01:21:48 RRSAgent, make minutes 01:21:49 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/13-chinese-web-minutes.html xfq 01:21:50 Martin: we are still analizing it 01:22:01 RRSAgent, make log public 01:22:02 RRSAgent, make minutes 01:22:03 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/13-chinese-web-minutes.html xfq 01:22:32 Meeting: Chinese IG TPAC 2025 01:22:32 ...there are some distribution ways, one of them is HTML5 01:22:38 ...some challgens with it 01:22:54 ...it can be solve by 3rd party framework 01:23:08 ...whcih can bring cross-platfrom capability 01:23:15 q? 01:23:47 ...it should be backed by the real implementers 01:23:49 present+ Murata 01:23:54 ...need the suport from the commuity in the end 01:24:01 ...it's feasible to do it with web tech 01:24:15 DingWei: thank you martin for the talk 01:24:17 present+ wanming 01:24:25 ...this WG has been doing great job 01:24:34 ...and also we identited some issues 01:24:50 ...seems we should rethink about the recharter about the adding new tech 01:25:07 ...this Miniapps idea is from China, and not gets more interests from the globe 01:25:26 ...there are some similar solutions such as PWA 01:25:48 IWA: https://chromeos.dev/en/web/isolated-web-apps 01:25:50 ...we want to talk more about rethink about global adoption 01:26:14 ...to my understanding, from architecture level, PWA is like MIniapps 01:26:27 ...from implementation level, there are engines to support 01:26:38 ..maybe time to think about the how structure 01:26:55 ...that is why I think we need to have conversations with more ppl from other groups 01:27:00 Martin: I agree 01:27:06 ...Miniapps is a new topic 01:27:12 ...for developers outside of China 01:27:27 ...they see the possibilites and have interests 01:27:44 ...I heard it from a group of developers who are interested to try it 01:28:09 https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/ee9d0329-721e-4364-9cf5-0e96b79558ea/ 01:28:33 ...light engines for delivering something light to the users 01:28:40 Wanlin: thank you Martin! 01:28:44 welcome to join in this Friday talk, engaging with IWA people who will join too... 01:28:50 ..happy to hear the progress 01:28:56 present+ Lola 01:29:52 Topic: Web AI Agent Rendering Containers - Dynamic 01:48:24 Bert has joined #chinese-web 02:01:12 slides: https://github.com/w3c/chinese-ig/blob/main/TPAC2025/slides/Web%20AI%20Agent%20Rendering%20Containers%20%20.pdf 02:02:24 [This talk is in Chinese, auto captioning and translation are available on Zoom] 02:02:51 Rao Hai: my talk will cover the following topics 02:03:00 ... 1. The Core Trends of AI 02:03:11 ... 2. The Generative UI Challenges 02:03:31 ... 3. The Proposal of a Web AI Agent Subset Standard 02:03:39 scribe: xueyuan 02:03:50 ... 4. Confusion of this talk 02:04:38 ... @1 02:05:51 ... stage 1: streaming Text & Markdown, the merits include clearer syntax for LLMs and good separation of concerns 02:06:56 ... stage 2: the workflow paradigm (custom cards), merits are to provide a reliable, controlled user experience, but also downsides 02:07:15 ... including low autonomy and high fragile, poor composability 02:07:41 ... stage 3: new trends - Agentic Ai & Generative UI 02:08:02 ... @2 02:09:01 ... the left chart shows the AI Agent using the 'workflow' paradigm to build AI Agent 02:10:11 Remi has joined #chinese-web 02:12:37 ... stage 3: @3 02:13:27 ... the Three routes of Generative UI: enhanced markdown, proprietary DSLs, raw Web (HMLT/JS/CSS) 02:14:27 ... the first route is simple, streaming-friendly, but it lacks of interactivity, fundamentally for content, not applications. 02:14:57 ... the 2nd route pros are enabling rich, controlled "Cards" and workflow 02:15:19 ... but it's not truly 'generative', still rigid. 02:16:09 ... the 3rd route provides maximum flexibility, but this approach compounds the core challenges, rather that solving them. 02:18:30 ... compounded challenges involve unstructured streaming, sandbox, modularity and Dynamics 02:18:35 yigu has joined #chinese-web 02:20:08 ... we think the 'raw web' route doesn't not solve the problem 02:20:43 ... the 3rd route is also too complex 02:21:21 ... so we proposed a 4th route\ 02:21:41 ... a Web AI Agent Subset standard 02:22:15 ... to defend a lean, cross-platform Web AI Agent standard 02:25:05 ... see the chart of the AI Agent Container frame that we envision, which contains different layers 02:25:41 ... eg., native container, MiniApps container, etc. 02:26:23 Haili has joined #chinese-web 02:26:49 Wangming: my question is about which group that we could bring this topic to? 02:27:17 Xueyuan: we have an AI Agent Protocal CG and upcoming Web & AI IG 02:27:31 ... this could be a good topic for them to discuss 02:28:07 agenda? 02:28:52 Topic: SM2 & SM4 vs WebCrypto 02:29:09 phila has joined #chinese-web 02:29:12 slides: https://github.com/w3c/chinese-ig/blob/main/TPAC2025/slides/W3C%20SM3%20SM4%20vs%20WebCrypto-EN.pdf 02:29:58 present+ 02:30:07 Zhilei: Web Cryptographic Hash Algorithm is currently a China national standard (GB/T) and ISO/IEC standard 02:30:54 ... SM4 Block Cipher Algorithm is a GM/T, GB/T, ISO/IEC standard 02:31:57 the GB/T standard require to use the commercial cryptography to protect critical information infranstructure 02:33:39 ... also requires to support commercial cryptographic algorithms that comply with national cryptographic management requirements 02:35:27 ... the Chinese standard GM/T 0087-2020 'Browser cryptography API specification' include the SM3 and SM4 algorithms 02:36:37 ... open source community, like Linux Kernel, OpenSSL, LibGcrypt, Bouncy Castle all support SM 3 & 4 02:37:39 ... see the list of browser vendors that implemented the SM 3 & $ 02:38:26 ... we hope to include SM 3 & 4 in W3C WebCrypto specification 02:39:06 Simone: we could discuss this with the @4 WG and need the group's consensus 02:40:17 ... we are thinking to provide guide about how to include the cryptograph web standards 02:41:13 ... also discussion about including crypto algorithms from national bodies 02:44:04 martinA has joined #chinese-web 02:45:08 scribe+ 02:46:26 Simone: Next joint meeting with IETF in Shenzhen 02:46:27 ... Recommended to talk in the WebSec meeting 02:46:41 ... next meeting on [weChat] 02:48:00 [@@@ Conversation in Chinese] 02:48:19 [No more questions on Web Crypto] 02:48:34 Wanming: We have covered all the topics for today 02:48:41 ... open discussion now 02:48:51 ... Please raise your comments to the group 02:49:03 Phil: I work for GS1, 02:49:12 ... Chair of Verifiable Credentials 02:49:31 ... you asked for a method for verifiable credentials 02:50:08 ... VC is composed of data models, security mechanisms (emmbeded and eveloping) 02:50:52 ... If there is a interest in this group for creating a new security mechanism based on SM3 or SM4 algorithms 02:51:17 ... I want to understand your proposal 02:51:36 xfq: [translating in Chinese] 02:51:55 wanming: I'll come back to you offline 02:52:06 Zhilei: see the SM3 issue https://github.com/w3c/webcrypto/issues/316 02:53:25 PhilA: I want to know about the standard, if there is a Chinese standard... 02:53:28 ... Is this a CG? 02:53:39 xueyuan: and IG 02:53:53 PhilA: So cannot produce specs 02:53:56 SM3 is also in ISO/IEC 10118-3:2018 02:54:14 SM4 in ISO/IEC 18033-3:2010/Amd 1:2021 02:54:25 ... If you want to put this requirement into the VC WG re-chartering 02:54:37 ... This is the right moment to do it 02:55:06 ... This could be created within the VC WG, specs, test suites, editing. 02:55:17 ... Tomorrow is the meeting 02:55:39 xueyuan: [@@@] 02:56:12 phila: Details of the VCWG meeting tomorrow are at https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/0f587939-6cab-4c8f-97b7-153a58d602f0/ 02:57:21 ZhileiZhang: [@@@2 in zh] 02:58:13 present+ 02:58:38 wanming: any comments? 02:59:15 xueyuan: We want to improve the Chinese IG 02:59:47 ... and we want to now how we can improve the communication with other chairs, and bring new topics into our IG 03:00:13 PhilA: Speaking as my role in GS1 with barcodes, VCs... 03:00:41 ... GS1 is multiple orgs, including several in China (in various Chinese provinces) 03:00:55 ... Thanks for the translation of VCs. 03:01:23 ... We talk about cross-country trade documentation, it's about exchange of technology 03:01:50 ... Today there is a breakout session. It's about global exchange of credentials 03:02:20 ... I would be delighted to have more communication to achieve this cross-country data exchange 03:02:36 xueyuan: We are based in Beijing, we are happy to support 03:02:37 Bobby has joined #chinese-web 03:03:16 PhilA: GS1 does QR codes, but many other things. 03:03:22 ... Happy to support. 03:03:29 xueyuan: Other comments? 03:04:22 ... Any comment how we do the communication with the Chinese ecosystem 03:04:29 Bobby: no comments 03:04:42 Wanming: Thanks for your time today. 03:04:51 ... Lunch time 03:05:13 [meeting adjourned] 03:05:23 rrsagent, draft minutes 03:05:24 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/13-chinese-web-minutes.html martinA 04:37:51 xfq has left #chinese-web 05:08:49 Zakim has left #chinese-web 05:39:32 present+ Lola Odelola, Murata Makoto, Wei Ding, Martin Alvarez-Espinar, Fuqiao Xue, Xueyuan Jia, Angel Li, Chunming Hu, Bert Bos, Rémi Bétin, Phil Archer, Andrew Liu, Jing Shen, Haiti Bai, Qing An, Wanming Lin, Zitao Wang, PalaDM 05:39:37 rrsagent, make minutes 05:39:38 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/13-chinese-web-minutes.html xueyuan 05:40:36 Bert has left #chinese-web 05:41:01