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01:51:39 <breakout-bot> RRSAgent, do not leave
01:51:40 <breakout-bot> RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
01:51:40 <breakout-bot> RRSAgent, make logs public
01:51:42 <breakout-bot> Meeting: WinterTC
01:51:42 <breakout-bot> Chair: Andreu Botella
01:51:42 <breakout-bot> Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/tpac2025-breakouts/issues/72
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01:51:43 <breakout-bot> Zakim, clear agenda
01:51:43 <Zakim> agenda cleared
01:51:43 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Pick a scribe
01:51:44 <Zakim> agendum 1 added
01:51:44 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy
01:51:44 <Zakim> agendum 2 added
01:51:44 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Goal of this session
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01:51:45 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Discussion
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01:51:45 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Next steps / where discussion continues
01:51:46 <Zakim> agendum 5 added
01:51:47 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Adjourn / Use IRC command: Zakim, end meeting
01:51:47 <Zakim> agendum 6 added
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02:17:43 <andreubotella> https://www.w3.org/Consortium/cepc/
02:17:51 <andreubotella> https://www.w3.org/Consortium/Legal/2017/antitrust-guidance
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02:20:15 <tidoust> present+
02:20:17 <tidoust> scribe+
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02:20:59 <oriol> present+
02:21:12 <kadirtopal> present+
02:21:13 <tidoust> Andreu: WinterTC is the ECMA Web-interoperable Runtimes Technical Committee
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02:22:30 <tidoust> [Discussion on recording the breakout]
02:22:52 <tidoust> [Recording approved]
02:23:16 <florian> [Process rules about recordings: https://www.w3.org/policies/process/#meeting-recording]
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02:23:30 <tidoust> Andreu: We'll be going through what each of these things mean.
02:23:56 <tidoust> ... JavaScript runtimes are environments that run JavaScript and provide a way for it to do inputs/outputs.
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02:24:20 <tidoust> ... Browsers are JS runtimes in practice.
02:24:28 <tidoust> ... They give you DOM as output.
02:24:41 <tidoust> Andreu: Server-side.
02:24:56 <tidoust> ... Node.js, Deno and so on are very general-purpose OS processes.
02:25:52 <tidoust> ... They're often used as servers in practice. E.g., node.js gave you a huge advantage over traditional servers when it first came out as a way to handle concurrent requests more efficiently.
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02:26:34 <tidoust> ... Other runtimes are edge runtimes such Cloudflare workers. Only meant as server usage. Deno deploy is another example. You also see this with various Node.js based solutions.
02:26:52 <tidoust> Andreu: Now Web interoperability.
02:26:54 <tidoust> ... Why care?
02:27:22 <tidoust> ... More code reuse is a good thing. Being able to run the same code on the client and on the server.
02:27:56 <tidoust> ... If there's alignment, there's less need for polyfills, e.g. node-fetch, isomorphic-fetch that are no longer needed in Node.js now that it supports fetch directly.
02:28:12 <tidoust> ... But also same documentation (e.g., on MDN).
02:28:17 <tidoust> ... In general, it reduces lock-in.
02:28:33 <tidoust> ... The web platform is the largets dev platform in the world, it makes sense to use it.
02:28:57 <tidoust> ... Many server-side runtimes are web-interoperable but in some cases, there are differences due to the nature of the runtime.
02:29:22 <tidoust> ... One example is how relative URL are resolved in fetch in such runtimes.
02:29:40 <tidoust> ... The runtime may simply throw, because there's no good base URL.
02:30:06 <tidoust> ... In some other cases, the server runtime may extent the specs in subtle ways because they have different requirements.
02:30:16 <tidoust> ... This creates potential compatibility issues.
02:30:44 <tidoust> ... Some common needs are different compared to browsers, e.g., HTTP server API.
02:31:07 <tidoust> ... or networking protocols that cannot be exposed to web runtimes.
02:31:23 <tidoust> ... We need a venue to extend the base functionality in web specifications.
02:31:55 <tidoust> .... In May 2022, some engineers started the WinterCG. We did it to allow open collaboration without membership requirements.
02:32:36 <tidoust> ... As we could not publish technical specs, we considered moving to a standardization venue.
02:32:46 <tidoust> ... We considered a W3C WG or an ECMA TC.
02:32:59 <tidoust> ... We had good discussions with both.
02:33:14 <tidoust> ... A number of the members of the WinterTC were not members of W3C but were members of ECMA.
02:33:40 <tidoust> ... In the end, we decided to shut down the Winter CG and create a TC at ECMA.
02:33:51 <tidoust> ... This is how ECma TC55 was formed.
02:34:15 <tidoust> ... Moving things once from a CG to ECMA worked fine, but cannot be done on an ongoing basis.
02:34:34 <tidoust> Andreu: What are we working on?
02:35:04 <tidoust> ... A minimum common web API, a WinterTC test suite, and then a Sockets API and a CLI API to have access to env variables, files/directories, and so on.
02:35:44 <tidoust> ... We are also contributing to upstream specs, typically Fetch (to remove cross-origin restrictions that do not apply to server runtimes) and the WebCrypto API.
02:36:35 <tidoust> Andreu: For the Minimum common web API, we're shooting as a superset of [Exposed=*] APIs. Goal is to publish yearly snapshots.
02:37:23 <nicolo-ribaudo> q+ to ask what is the process for contributing to web specs
02:37:23 <tidoust> ... In the future, we're planning to have conformance levels, e.g., to have levels such as Graphics, CLI/File Systems, and also possibly Servers with advanced networking APIs.
02:37:34 <tidoust> Andreu: I've hinted on differences for Fetch.
02:37:51 <tidoust> ... There is no current page, no cookie jar, no referrer, while the spec assumes these exist.
02:38:06 <tidoust> ... There's also no need to protect against cross-site requests.
02:38:42 <nicolo-ribaudo> q-
02:38:49 <tidoust> ... Goal is to standardize these differences. The plan is to upstream these changes to the Fetch spec. We have no interest in duplicating the spec or creating a separate one.
02:39:08 <tidoust> ... We're discussing that with Anne, Fetch editor.
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02:39:31 <tantek-projector> RRSAgent, pointer
02:39:31 <RRSAgent> See https://www.w3.org/2025/11/12-wintertc-irc#T02-39-31
02:39:37 <tidoust> Andreu: The WinterTC test suite is a subset of Web platform Tests for the minimum common web API.
02:40:12 <tidoust> ... Changes that may be needed will be upstreamed too.
02:40:37 <tidoust> Andreu: We want to collaborate with W3C and WHATWG. For WHATWG in particular, there's a strong focus on browser user cases.
02:40:52 <tidoust> ... Does it make sense to have conformance levels for server-side runtimes?
02:41:14 <tidoust> ... Sometimes, it's useful for editors and contributors to think about additional runtimes. E.g., during reviews.
02:41:36 <tidoust> ... It would be good to think about considerations for these runtimes during TAG review, etc.
02:41:55 <tidoust> ... Are there any barriers to this collaboration? E.g., IPR considerations?
02:42:27 <tidoust> ... People making significant contributions in ECMA WinterTC also need to sign the contributor agreement of WHATWG.
02:42:58 <tidoust> Andreu: https://wintertc.org and GitHub https://github.com/WinterTC55. Note we also have a Matrix room.
02:42:58 <nicolo-ribaudo> q+
02:43:09 <kadirtopal> q+
02:43:28 <tidoust> nicolo-ribaudo: Regarding tests, do you plan a separate test suite for additional APIs?
02:43:42 <tidoust> Andreu: The CLI API is still very much work in progress.
02:43:57 <tidoust> ... The common API is taking priority for now.
02:44:07 <tidoust> ... It's hard to know what will happen for sure.
02:44:25 <tidoust> ... If we need a specific test suite, we would very likely copy the same test harness in any case.
02:44:39 <tidoust> ... It would seem better to contribute things to WPT in any case if that's possible.
02:44:42 <tidoust> ack nicolo-ribaudo
02:44:48 <tidoust> ack kadirtopal
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02:45:04 <michaelficarra> q+
02:45:11 <tidoust> kadirtopal: I'm from the WebDX CG. The minimum common API is prescriptive. How do you keep track of compliance?
02:45:25 <tidoust> Andreu: This will be prescriptive.
02:45:43 <tidoust> ... We started by looking at existing runtimes and what they currently support.
02:46:32 <tidoust> ... Once we have identified a test suite, plan is that these runtimes will follow them.
02:46:37 <tidoust> ... We cannot force them to, of course.
02:47:11 <tidoust> ... Example of having window be an EventTarget, we may allow exceptions for contexts where it would be impractical to do so.
02:47:43 <tidoust> ... Node.js is very likely to adopt these standard events for instance.
02:47:52 <snek> s/likely/unlikely
02:48:07 <tidoust> ... We allow that as an exception as a result.
02:48:35 <tidoust> aki: We acknowledge the environments in which the APIs got implemented.
02:48:53 <kadirtopal> q+
02:49:00 <tidoust> Andreu: I'm looking at the spec that has wording around "legacy reasons" to behave differently.
02:49:23 <tidoust> ... Such exceptions should not happen with newer runtimes.
02:49:32 <tidoust> ack michaelficarra
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02:50:02 <tidoust> michaelficarra: I like that you have conformance levels. Have you considered even more restricted ones such as compute-only?
02:50:16 <tidoust> Andreu: At some point, that might overlap with TC33.
02:50:28 <tidoust> ... Targeted at embed use cases (e.g., no event loop).
02:50:42 <snek> s/TC33/TC53
02:50:58 <tidoust> ... It's possible that there may be environments where it does not make sense to have fetch or setTimeout.
02:51:27 <tidoust> michaelficarra: I personally disagree but maybe we can sort this out later on.
02:52:13 <tidoust> Andreu: It's possible that the minimum Common API is too large for what should be the minimum.
02:52:28 <tidoust> ... There might be good arguments to reducing that.
02:52:32 <tidoust> ack kadirtopal
02:52:57 <tidoust> kadirtopal: Can we talk a bit about the audience? Implementors? Dev?
02:53:20 <tidoust> Andreu: So far we've been working with implementers mostly.
02:53:32 <tidoust> ... TypeScript definitions that would contain the minimum common API is something that we've been discussing too.
02:53:36 <tidoust> ... So both.
02:53:53 <tidoust> ... We haven't looked too much into this but it's definitely in scope.
02:54:24 <tidoust> kadirtopal: In the WebDX CG, we have created a hierarchy of web-features, with implementation support in browsers, leading to the Baseline statuses.
02:54:36 <tidoust> ... Have you considered leveraging the web-features catalog?
02:54:52 <tidoust> Andreu: I started to look into it. Something that we can discuss.
02:55:07 <snek> q+ we also track in browser compat data
02:55:09 <tidoust> kadirtopal: That would be my proposal, that you reuse the same feature IDs to communicate to developers.
02:55:50 <tidoust> ... We have mapped ~500 features in WPT. Goal is to have all features mapped to WPT soon, so you would be able to extract all the tests related to a feature.
02:56:28 <tidoust> michaelficarra: browser compat data also comes to mind as a source of support data
02:56:49 <tidoust> Michael: Wondering about the adopting modern features breakouts.
02:57:02 <tidoust> kadirtopal: Idea is to create a mapping from features to polyfills.
02:57:14 <tidoust> Michael: [missed]
02:57:48 <tidoust> Andreu: So far, we have been working with implementers to make sure that when we publish a yearly snapshot, that will work for them.
02:57:58 <tidoust> ... Polyfills will be useful for older versions.
02:58:33 <tidoust> q?
02:58:56 <tidoust> kadirtopal: Why is it called "Winter"?
02:59:27 <tidoust> Andreu: Acronym for Web-INTEroperable Runtimes.
02:59:38 <tidoust> ... Now snowflake logo.
03:01:13 <tidoust> Michael: Wondering about interoperability for Bun
03:01:31 <tidoust> Andreu: Bun joined one session in WinterCG when we were talking about changes to the Fetch spec.
03:01:50 <tidoust> ... My understanding is that the sessions are at a time when they can join.
03:02:06 <tidoust> Michael: I'm wondering whether they are moving in a direction that could cause interoperability risks.
03:02:23 <tidoust> Andreu: I don't know how much they match the common API.
03:02:47 <tidoust> ... They also do a lot of things that are not web-like. They're probably not too conformant with it but they do have a subset.
03:02:55 <tidoust> ... I haven't looked at this.
03:03:40 <tidoust> ... Ideally, we'd like to have them and work together with them.
03:04:32 <tidoust> Michal: Wondering about JS that can run in both server and client runtimes. More and more, developers span the boundary. Have you discussed that?
03:04:39 <tidoust> Andreu: We have discussed that.
03:05:25 <tidoust> ... My understanding is that there are some minor things in the [missed] that are not compatible with the server use cases, but that is something that we hope we can fix in the future so that we can adopt it.
03:06:16 <tidoust> ... Re. Socket API, there have been attempts in WICG for TCP/UDP API that wouldn't be exposed to web runtimes directly. We're trying to align and collaborate.
03:06:48 <tidoust> Michal: One specific point is serialization when calling server functions. That's happening at the application layer. Wondering whether that's in scope?
03:07:06 <tidoust> Andreu: Not something that we're focusing on but interesting use case. I do want to move in that general direction.
03:07:29 <tidoust> Michal: Some client APIs that only make sense in the context of communicating with servers.
03:07:39 <tidoust> Andreu: So far, we haven't been looking into that.
03:07:46 <tidoust> ... But interesting.
03:08:06 <tidoust> ... We haven't looked at the communication between client and server.
03:08:32 <tidoust> Andreu: Thanks everyone for joining!
03:08:49 <tidoust> [session adjourned]
03:08:53 <tidoust> RRSAgent, draft minutes
03:08:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/12-wintertc-minutes.html tidoust
03:09:49 <tidoust> RRSAgent, bye
03:09:49 <RRSAgent> I see no action items