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01:51:26 <breakout-bot> Meeting: WCAG 3 update
01:51:26 <breakout-bot> Chair: Kevin White
01:51:26 <breakout-bot> Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/tpac2025-breakouts/issues/54
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01:51:27 <breakout-bot> Zakim, clear agenda
01:51:27 <Zakim> agenda cleared
01:51:27 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Pick a scribe
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01:51:28 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy
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01:51:30 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Goal of this session
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01:51:30 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Discussion
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01:51:31 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Next steps / where discussion continues
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01:51:31 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Adjourn / Use IRC command: Zakim, end meeting
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02:14:36 <kevin> present+
02:14:42 <Jem> present+
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02:15:21 <kevin> Slideset: https://www.w3.org/2025/Talks/TPAC/wcag3-update/
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02:20:33 <shawn> zakim, who is on the phone?
02:20:33 <Zakim> Present: kevin, Jem, wendyreid, shiestyle, Kitahara
02:20:35 <ohmata> present+
02:20:37 <shawn> present+
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02:20:55 <wendyreid> scribe+
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02:21:13 <wendyreid> kevin: Presenting some slides, this is an update on WCAG3
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02:21:24 <wendyreid> ... we'll use the queue in IRC
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02:21:36 <wendyreid> ... if anyone has questions, we'll pick them up as we go
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02:21:48 <wendyreid> ... we are going to cover today, first an intro on WCAG3 itself
02:21:57 <wendyreid> ... recap on the new approach, what we are hoping to achieve
02:21:59 <nigel> Present+ Nigel Megitt
02:22:05 <Daniel> present+
02:22:06 <wendyreid> ... current status, topics to go in depth, what's next
02:22:10 <sidvishnoi> present+
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02:22:18 <wendyreid> ... WCAG3, developed by AGWG
02:22:21 <Ben_Tillyer> present+
02:22:25 <BrianE> present+
02:22:32 <wendyreid> ... a major development from WCAG2, it does not deprecate, you could almost have regulations that cover both
02:22:33 <hiroki> present+ Hiroki_Endo
02:22:35 <jkamata> present+ Junko Kamata
02:22:38 <wendyreid> ... we won't go into the regulatory bits
02:22:47 <wendyreid> ... goal is to cover more disability needs than WCAG2
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02:23:05 <CharlesL> present+
02:23:05 <wendyreid> ... general goals is a new structure, there are a lot of challenges in WCAG2 to add new success criteria
02:23:12 <shawn> starting point for official WCAG 3 info : WCAG 3 Introduction https://www.w3.org/WAI/wcag3
02:23:15 <wendyreid> ... baked into the structure, WCAG3 will use a new structure to address this
02:23:26 <wendyreid> ... lean more into user needs, connecting requirements with user needs
02:23:47 <wendyreid> ... help users of the standard to understand why this requirement matters, front load with why
02:24:03 <wendyreid> ... we know from anecdotal evidence, when developers understand why, they are more likely to do it
02:24:15 <wendyreid> ... we are looking to expand coverage of disabilities
02:24:23 <wendyreid> ... within the work, we've been slowly developing things
02:24:47 <wendyreid> ... most recently, working on content maturity, five maturity levels: placeholder, exploratory, developing, refining, and mature
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02:25:14 <wendyreid> ... increasingly mature content runs through these levels, within each level, we're looking to ensure we tick certain boxes
02:25:24 <wendyreid> ... they also tell a story in terms of what we need from wider review
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02:25:54 <wendyreid> ... if content is exploratory, much of the content is, the details are unclear, but the direction is, we are looking for more specific feedback and input
02:26:09 <DenisDIDIER> Present+ Denis_DIDIER
02:26:14 <wendyreid> ... the general structure of WCAG3 deviates a bit from WCAG2, for each area, we have guidelines
02:26:44 <wendyreid> ... guidelines are plain language outcome statements, within each are foundational and supplemental requirements
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02:27:07 <wendyreid> ... the goal with these, foundational are part of the base set of conformance, there are a lot of concepts here we are still working on
02:27:29 <wendyreid> ... foundational are base set
02:27:51 <wendyreid> ... within each, we have how-tos, how to achieve the requirements
02:28:07 <wendyreid> ... similar to the WCAG2 explainer documents
02:28:07 <wendyreid> ... within each are methods and tests
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02:28:17 <wendyreid> ... methods are technology dependent, how would you achieve that requirement
02:28:36 <wendyreid> ... for example, a method could state that the user agent could meet the requirement, meaning that the author does nothing
02:28:43 <wendyreid> ... we'll talk about the accessible support set
02:29:00 <wendyreid> ... if there is a test, we can make it a requirement, but if there is no test, it's hard to require
02:29:05 <wendyreid> ... tests can vary depending on platforms
02:29:33 <wendyreid> ... that leads us to assertions, one challenge we have is the requirements are difficult to test in a consistent and repeatable manner
02:29:58 <wendyreid> ... this comes out of work like COGA, when you start trying to unpack it is hard to create consistent tests
02:30:20 <wendyreid> ... the model we've adopted is assertions, meaning that an org has asserted they have done certain things, like testing with people with disabilities
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02:30:35 <wendyreid> ... it's good, but we can't test the success or impact of that
02:30:57 <wendyreid> ... you can assert that, and we can include it in evaluations, no quality assessment, but proof of the work
02:31:07 <wendyreid> ... this will allow us to hopefully integrate some harder requirements
02:31:13 <wendyreid> ... that's the overall structure
02:31:23 <wendyreid> ... within a requirement, the structure is more fine-grained
02:31:38 <wendyreid> ... within WCAG2, many success criteria are very meaty, with lots of requirements
02:31:57 <wendyreid> ... for anyone who knows WCAG2, sometihng like 1.3.1 info and relationships becomes overloaded
02:32:04 <wendyreid> ... we want to get as detailed as possible
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02:32:16 <JJ> present+
02:32:21 <wendyreid> ... here is a requirement about text resizing, this is to show structure
02:32:38 <wendyreid> ... core requirement is that text can be resized to at least 200% of the platform default
02:32:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/12-wcag-update-minutes.html fantasai
02:33:07 <wendyreid> ... you can limit or declare when it applies, and has exceptions, the requirement applies except in specific circumstances
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02:33:23 <wendyreid> ... it allows us to provide clarity
02:33:35 <wendyreid> ... one challenge as we've done the editorial process, when there are multiple exceptions
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02:33:52 <wendyreid> ... start to question whether it is an appropriate requirement
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02:34:16 <wendyreid> ... having the structure helps with the editorial and review process, to determine whether a requirement needs to be something else, like an assertion
02:34:42 <wendyreid> ... some thorny questions, not all but some, what we get, what we reflect on
02:34:50 <wendyreid> ... how can we make WCAG more user friendly?
02:35:09 <wendyreid> ... standards language is difficult, how do we make it more approachable, plain language
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02:35:32 <wendyreid> ... when expanding the coverage, we want more coverage for cognitive and low vision
02:35:43 <wendyreid> ... how can we make the standard more future ready?
02:35:57 <wendyreid> ... when we published WCAG2.2, we deprecated 4.1.1, the parsing requirement, it was tricky to take out
02:36:15 <wendyreid> ... could we write requirements so we don't need to remove any, but maybe it no longer needs to be met
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02:36:29 <wendyreid> ... last on is about the conformance model, how do we avoid a pass/fail conformance model
02:36:42 <wendyreid> ... it's not just about the conformance model, it's about how regulators adopt the model
02:36:47 <wendyreid> ... how people use it
02:37:10 <wendyreid> ... user friendly standards, the Silver Group, who did a lot of the research on the usage and usability of WCAG
02:37:33 <wendyreid> ... tons of work, they were looking at simplifying the language, easier points of access
02:37:43 <wendyreid> ... how do we know when something passes, fails
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02:37:59 <wendyreid> ... we see this in the WCAG 2 backlog, lots of ways to interpret
02:38:09 <wendyreid> ... easier points of access, people coming in new to standards
02:38:37 <wendyreid> ... more plain language throughout the standard, looking to unpack criteria, adopting a style guide to create more consistent language and material
02:38:49 <wendyreid> ... work looking at supplementary materials
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02:39:07 <wendyreid> ... WCAG2 has developed an ecosystem of supporting materials, WCAG3 is going to need the same, what does it look like
02:39:17 <tantek-projector> RRSAgent, pointer
02:39:17 <RRSAgent> See https://www.w3.org/2025/11/12-wcag-update-irc#T02-39-17
02:39:31 <wendyreid> ... thinking about the cognitive needs coverage expansion, it's difficult to create requirements, many opportunities for improvements
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02:39:44 <wendyreid> ... how do we make sure we put something in that improves things
02:39:44 <matatk> present+
02:39:51 <wendyreid> ... this is how we got to assertion
02:40:25 <wendyreid> ... example for clear language, the assertion is that they conduct a plain language review, check verb tense, length of paragraphs, purpose of content
02:40:33 <wendyreid> ... you could look and think these could be requirements
02:40:43 <wendyreid> ... but when trying to do this, it's hard to make this actually testable
02:41:04 <wendyreid> ... as an assertion it is fine, as a content provider you've provided evidence you've done this
02:41:38 <wendyreid> ... it does two things, it provides a way to make sure these things are presented and covered, and pointing out to people things they could potentially do, like plain language review or usability testing
02:41:46 <wendyreid> ... it will fit into the conformance model
02:41:56 <wendyreid> ... ready for the future, technology changes and will continue to do so
02:42:12 <wendyreid> ... looking at browsers and webpages, but that's not the only way to access content
02:42:24 <wendyreid> ... mobile challenges, we have voice, AI, etc.
02:42:46 <wendyreid> ... one area to address this is to stop referring to webpages, and to focus instead on a page or a view
02:43:07 <wendyreid> ... the idea behind this is to allow for interfaces that don't fit into the previous "webpage" model
02:43:26 <wendyreid> ... talking about conformance, it's a very active topic at the moment
02:43:31 <wendyreid> ... this is the current thinking
02:43:50 <wendyreid> ... conformance based on a combination of foundational requirements and then a set of supplemental and assertions
02:44:09 <wendyreid> ... you could have options for selecting a subset, you could focus on specific domains like education or healthcare
02:44:22 <wendyreid> ... one idea is having a points based system, another is percentage based
02:44:54 <wendyreid> ... we have a diagram here, the block of foundational requirements with the supplemental block on top, within that is bronze, silver, gold levels of conformance
02:44:59 <wendyreid> ... we're actively working on that
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02:45:32 <wendyreid> ... accessibility supported, going to be vague, this is a difficult area to define, the concept is similar to WCAG2
02:45:42 <wendyreid> ... how does a content author know a technique will work in practice
02:46:03 <wendyreid> ... the accessibility supported set will identify the tools, browsers, AT, software, that fits within the set
02:46:16 <wendyreid> ... if you work within the set, and it allows groups to define sets of their own
02:46:37 <wendyreid> ... the goal and aim in WCAG3, there will be an informative set, this is our support set, this is what it means
02:46:49 <wendyreid> ... that goal is about providing a set of foundational requirements to rely on
02:47:10 <wendyreid> ... you can rely on these things to ensure conformance, like the relationship of labels and elements
02:47:22 <wendyreid> ... there might be higher conformance levels, regional sets or contextual sets
02:47:38 <wendyreid> ... next steps, we have updated the draft with another coming soon
02:47:50 <wendyreid> ... we have a draft schedule, we're rechartering so thinking about that now
02:48:03 <wendyreid> ... upcoming draft due in December 2025, or early January
02:48:22 <wendyreid> ... close to complete list of guidelines, requirements, and assertions, big editorial work on this
02:48:33 <wendyreid> ... lots of work to define this, now subgroups are reviewing the work
02:48:37 <wendyreid> ... we'll update the draft
02:48:50 <wendyreid> ... within there, we are going to include goals for the conformance model
02:49:03 <wendyreid> ... we're still kind of hoping someone invents one that solves all our problems
02:49:14 <wendyreid> ... also include proposed options
02:49:25 <wendyreid> ... we're looking for public comment on any guidelines or assertions missing
02:49:30 <wendyreid> ... and more info on the conformance model
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02:49:56 <wendyreid> ... broader discussion on the conformance model, trying to loop in regulators, we want to make sure they are in the conversation to know what they want
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02:50:09 <wendyreid> ... we want to provide information to policymakers when using our specs in regulation
02:50:26 <wendyreid> ... draft publication schedule for the next 4 years. Hard numbers in there, some flex
02:50:46 <wendyreid> ... hoping to solicit feedback on 2025/2026 draft, 6 months of 2026.
02:51:05 <wendyreid> ... Goal of the next charter release is develop the candidate recommendation
02:51:14 <wendyreid> ... get to CR by late 2027
02:51:50 <wendyreid> ... 2029 latest to publish REC, with time for review in between, after 2029, working on the informative documentation
02:52:03 <wendyreid> ... it's already begun, it will be interwoven as we work on things now
02:52:14 <wendyreid> ... we'll have more information once we release the charter
02:52:25 <Jem> q+ to ask about resolving potential discrepancy in two different domains - 1. conformance in "supplemental requirement" and 2. coordination among subgroups such as COGA, Low vision, Mobile and Policy, usability testing and assertions, WCAG 2 ICT, ACT and so on.
02:52:31 <wendyreid> ... finally, we really encourage feedback, it only benefits more from people who want to use it
02:52:55 <wendyreid> ... we use discussions in github, we encourage people to participate freely, some are long, chairs help summarize
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02:53:20 <wendyreid> ... you can always send an email to the AG comments, one per issue please
02:53:20 <r12a> q+
02:53:27 <nigel_> q+ to ask about barriers to access
02:53:28 <wendyreid> ack Jem
02:53:29 <Zakim> Jem, you wanted to ask about resolving potential discrepancy in two different domains - 1. conformance in "supplemental requirement" and 2. coordination among subgroups such as
02:53:29 <Zakim> ... COGA, Low vision, Mobile and Policy, usability testing and assertions, WCAG 2 ICT, ACT and so on.
02:54:17 <wendyreid> Jem: I have two questions, I am happy that the Silver TF items have survived, first is when we worked on Silver TF, we had a lot of discussions about conformance, supplemental criteria
02:54:27 <Daniel> q+ to comment on accessibility support set
02:54:31 <wendyreid> ... different domains requirements, how will you measure by domain?
02:55:05 <wendyreid> ... second question is about the current effort, one of the agenda items this week was different sub groups, how do the subgroup outcomes will reflect into WCAG3?
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02:55:42 <wendyreid> ... each subgroup will come up with outcomes, how will that be connected to WCAG3, in supplemental notes or other ways?
02:56:06 <wendyreid> kevin: First question, don't know, currently there's an idea about groupings that align or are higher value in some domains
02:56:09 <wendyreid> ... not sure yet
02:56:22 <wendyreid> ... early stage thoughts, we'll see if it has legs
02:56:31 <wendyreid> Jem: Who decides whether its higher value?
02:56:53 <wendyreid> kevin: The WG, they need to look at the requirements, what applies more in what domains, as an example, education
02:57:17 <wendyreid> ... video content is very important there
02:57:28 <wendyreid> ... up to the WG to explore that as a topic, it may not pan out
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02:57:52 <wendyreid> ... the other question, you mentioned COGA, Mobile, those are taskforces of AGWG, not subgroups of WCAG3
02:58:05 <wendyreid> ... AGWG has a number of TFs, mobile a11y TF, looking at WCAG2 mobile
02:58:12 <wendyreid> ... similar to WCAG2ICT
02:58:26 <wendyreid> ... we're going to be leaning on them, can they review WCAG3 for mobile
02:58:35 <wendyreid> ... COGA, they have their own outcomes and work
02:59:00 <wendyreid> ... the subgroups are within the work of WCAG3, in January we broke off small groups that worked on a specific set of guidelines
02:59:10 <wendyreid> ... 4-6 subgroups at a time, it seems to have worked well
02:59:36 <wendyreid> ... to come back to the question, mobile will review, COGA will review, and we're picking up content from their work
02:59:48 <wendyreid> Jem: Mobile and COGA will be win WCAG3
02:59:49 <kevin> q?
02:59:58 <wendyreid> kevin: Sort of, we'll be collaborating
03:00:03 <kevin> ack r12a
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03:00:30 <wendyreid> r12a: So I'm a guy who writes documents and creates apps every day, I want to make them access, you've done a lot of work and that's my problem
03:00:36 <wendyreid> ... I don't have time to make myself into an a11y expert
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03:00:50 <wendyreid> ... I don't have time to look things, and as I get older, I find it harder to remember what I've read
03:00:57 <wendyreid> ... I'm looking for a rapid answer more and more
03:01:06 <wendyreid> ... if I'm making a table, what do I need to do for that
03:01:09 <wendyreid> ... looking for a task list
03:01:16 <wendyreid> ... I want instructions
03:01:23 <wendyreid> ... I thought at one point WCAG3 is going to do that
03:01:50 <wendyreid> ... and it sounded like you might cover browser things, are there plans to have task-based things for users
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03:02:12 <wendyreid> kevin: Yeeeessss, one of the things that came out of Silver was how to create content for small developers
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03:02:29 <TabAtkins> q+
03:02:33 <wendyreid> ... one suggestion was providing specific developer or designer guidance, that is still there, we haven't started working on it
03:03:00 <wendyreid> ... WCAG2 has benefited hugely from the education and outreach resources on the WAI website which address your concerns
03:03:14 <wendyreid> ... theres the standard, and there's getting into the standard, using it to create content
03:03:18 <BrianE> q+
03:03:27 <wendyreid> ... having an authoritative voice communicating what is needed is wanted
03:03:32 <JJ> q+ to techniques / methods for non-web?
03:03:37 <wendyreid> ... we haven't started, not sure what it will look like, but we will explore it
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03:03:59 <wendyreid> ... there will be an ecosystem, many good people will write about things, and there's challenges there too
03:04:08 <wendyreid> ... that's where the authoritative voice is handy
03:04:13 <Daniel> q?
03:04:32 <wendyreid> ... if I'm talking about WCAG2, I have a slide that says don't read WCAG2. we need other places to start
03:04:37 <wendyreid> ... the research was clear
03:04:48 <wendyreid> r12a: Let me know if you need a tester
03:04:49 <kevin> q?
03:04:57 <kevin> ack nigel
03:04:57 <Zakim> nigel_, you wanted to ask about barriers to access
03:05:12 <wendyreid> nigel: As part of that ecosystem, the BBC HTML guidelines have that task based idea
03:05:19 <wendyreid> ... not usable for everyone, it's a problem for everyone
03:05:59 <wendyreid> ... I q'd myself for the other end of the telescope, the draft now doesn't mention barriers to access, how do you understand for any a11y feature, what barriers to access it helps to overcome
03:06:08 <wendyreid> ... why don't you mention barriers to access
03:06:34 <wendyreid> kevin: For each guideline is a set of user needs, not in the current draft, that is being devleoped and cleaned up for the last 8 months
03:06:59 <wendyreid> ... it's going into the next draft, it will not live there in the end, it's informative and will be put somewhere, it should address that
03:07:07 <wendyreid> ... "as a screen reader user I need this..."
03:07:41 <wendyreid> nigel: That will help, one thing I'm conscious of is that there is not a one size fits all solution, there might be multiple solutions to achieve the same thing
03:07:52 <shawn> q++
03:07:54 <wendyreid> ... reading it now, I don't see that nuance about meeting the user need
03:07:55 <shawn> qq+
03:07:57 <wendyreid> ... it feels a bit inflexible
03:08:10 <shawn> q- +
03:08:39 <wendyreid>  kevin: The guideline is intended as an outcome statement, the goal is to define the needs that drive the requirements, it's not the only way, the methods and tests cover that, we can discuss more
03:08:41 <kevin> ack shawn
03:08:41 <Zakim> shawn, you wanted to react to nigel_
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03:09:12 <wendyreid> shawn: Just briefly, similar to the situation now, it's likely that WCAG3 will be the standard, it won't be the introduction, tutorial, it will be integrated into the resources
03:09:18 <kevin> ack Daniel
03:09:18 <Zakim> Daniel, you wanted to comment on accessibility support set
03:09:33 <wendyreid> Daniel: Coming back to accessibility supported, it's key in WCAG2, one conformance requirement
03:10:19 <wendyreid> ... if we are planning to undo some of the scaffolding in WCAG3, the definition is normative, any changes we make to this will impact auditors and testers justify their claims
03:10:33 <wendyreid> ... I think I heard this will be informative in WCAG3, or will have informative documents?
03:10:46 <wendyreid> ... this is a key thing about the testing affordances that accompany WCAG3
03:11:08 <wendyreid> ... are we planning to make this informative
03:11:18 <wendyreid> kevin: I don't think so, but ask Alistair
03:11:25 <kevin> q?
03:11:35 <kevin> ack TabAtkins
03:12:08 <wendyreid> TabAtkins: It is well known among CSS WG members that the WCAG2 color contrast algorithm isn't very good in some cases, we've intentionally avoided being specific as a result, are there improvements
03:12:13 <wendyreid> kevin: Short answer yes
03:12:30 <wendyreid> ... we're looking to explore the algorithms, what is the best, which one delivers the best user experience
03:12:35 <wendyreid> ... it's on the cards
03:12:38 <kevin> ack BrianE
03:13:20 <wendyreid> BrianE: Question, historical context around conformance, one of things on the slide, questions about % of conformance, the current direction is we have baseline, then supplemental, and tiers within that
03:13:39 <wendyreid> ... were there discussions of %s or levels of conformance within guidelines
03:14:07 <wendyreid> kevin: I think it has been discussed
03:14:12 <wendyreid> wendyreid: It was in the past
03:14:32 <wendyreid> kevin: Meeting requirements at different levels would be tricky, vs having multiple requirements to meet
03:14:43 <wendyreid> ... we can discuss later and clarify
03:15:07 <wendyreid> BrianE: Thinking of having more flexibility, room to move within individual guidelines, was curious about the perspective
03:15:15 <kevin> q?
03:15:18 <kevin> ack JJ
03:15:18 <Zakim> JJ, you wanted to techniques / methods for non-web?
03:15:39 <wendyreid> JJ: Question about the plan in WCAG3 for methods for non-web
03:15:50 <wendyreid> ... WCAG2ICT, WCAGMobile have no techniques
03:16:04 <wendyreid> ... will there be methods for non-web
03:16:19 <wendyreid> kevin: WCAG2ICT looks at how to interpret WCAG in a non-web context
03:17:05 <wendyreid> ... we've changed the W in WCAG, it's the W3C Accessibility Guidelines, offers a method in different
03:17:22 <kevin> q?
03:17:22 <kevin> q?
03:17:24 <wendyreid> wendyreid: Yeah, we have examples for things like games, audio or haptics
03:17:44 <wendyreid> kevin: We're at time, thanks all, appreciate you, please bring your questions to us or issues in our github!
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03:18:32 <wendyreid> rrsagent, please generate minutes
03:18:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/12-wcag-update-minutes.html wendyreid
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13:49:57 <tidoust> RRSAgent, bye
13:49:57 <RRSAgent> I see no action items