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07:51:54 <breakout-bot> Meeting: SVG Interoperability
07:51:54 <breakout-bot> Chair: Dirk Schulze, Karl Dubost
07:51:54 <breakout-bot> Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/tpac2025-breakouts/issues/18
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07:51:55 <breakout-bot> Zakim, clear agenda
07:51:55 <Zakim> agenda cleared
07:51:55 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Pick a scribe
07:51:56 <Zakim> agendum 1 added
07:51:56 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy
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07:51:56 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Goal of this session
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07:51:58 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Discussion
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07:51:58 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Next steps / where discussion continues
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07:51:59 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Adjourn / Use IRC command: Zakim, end meeting
07:51:59 <Zakim> agendum 6 added
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08:27:26 <caribou> present+ Karl, Carine
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08:34:22 <caribou> Karl: The SVG is chartered to _maintain_ the spec
08:34:38 <caribou> ... the spec currently has a lot of ambiguities
08:34:53 <caribou> ... tests results shows interop issues
08:34:53 <krit> present+
08:35:09 <caribou> ... sometimes implementation, sometimes spec
08:35:24 <caribou> ... there's a bit list of open issues
08:36:24 <caribou> ... we have new editors and aim at republishing
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08:36:41 <caribou> ... huge work needed for interop testing
08:36:54 <ydaniv> q+
08:37:03 <caribou> [showing the tests that are in WPT]
08:37:07 <ntim> wpt.fyi/svg
08:37:39 <caribou> Karl: some more tests in blink repo, some others (maybe similar) in webkit repo
08:38:11 <caribou> ... we need to figure out how to organize testing from now on
08:39:01 <caribou> ... people contribute, from Webkit, Edge, Igalia...
08:39:14 <caribou> ... we want to keep the fire going
08:39:26 <Neha> q+
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08:39:56 <caribou> ack ydaniv
08:40:00 <foolip> q?
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08:40:08 <foolip> q+
08:40:08 <miketaylr> present+
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08:40:42 <caribou> ydaniv: there was a session in Sevilla about adding more features
08:40:59 <caribou> ... there was a session organized by Igalia in sring 2025
08:41:06 <caribou> s/sring/spring
08:41:32 <caribou> ... actions items were on interop
08:41:55 <caribou> ... suggestion to pay someone to convert old tests to get a new test suite
08:42:15 <caribou> ... 2nd action item about updating the spec
08:43:13 <caribou> Karl: I don't think there's desire from browser vendors to implement new features
08:43:48 <caribou> ... we're chartered to clarify/fix the spec
08:43:53 <satakagi> present+
08:45:00 <caribou> Dirk: the charter says we should only maintain the spec. Browser implementers create WPT tests and open issues when they find problems
08:45:15 <foolip> q?
08:45:16 <caribou> ... testing the interop is the major focus of this charter
08:45:51 <caribou> Neha: big supporter of SVG
08:46:16 <caribou> ... in India we try to provide books in epub formats to children in school
08:46:23 <caribou> ... and images in SVG
08:47:19 <caribou> ... for kids with disabilities. SVG accessibility with labels is incredible
08:47:43 <caribou> Karl: please join!
08:47:56 <miketaylr> q?
08:47:58 <caribou> Neha: I'll try to help
08:48:05 <miketaylr> q+
08:50:14 <ntim> ack foolip
08:50:34 <ydaniv> q+
08:50:45 <caribou> foolip: interested in the testing effort in WPT, what kind of approach are you taking?
08:50:55 <ydaniv> qq+
08:51:32 <caribou> Karl: I'd like to go through all the tests. It's hard to figure out where it's in the spec
08:51:51 <caribou> foolip: there's a triage mode
08:52:27 <caribou> ... if you want to have a triage queue, you can associate bugs to tests
08:53:03 <ntim> ... you can use the bugs filter to get a burndown list
08:53:15 <ntim> ... you can search by chrome only failures
08:53:26 <ntim> (chrome:fail safari:pass firefox:pass)
08:53:45 <ntim> you can filter by tests associated with a bug or not
08:54:07 <ntim> ack ydaniv
08:54:07 <Zakim> ydaniv, you wanted to react to foolip
08:54:45 <kbabbitt> q+
08:55:01 <caribou> ydaniv: maybe we can assess where we are in interop
08:55:24 <ntim> ydaniv: i tried to suggest SVG as a focus area to Interop 2025, but we could do an investigation some time
08:55:31 <ydaniv> q-
08:56:07 <caribou> Karl: if we demonstrate in the WG that we do the work, the Interop project might be interested
08:56:26 <caribou> s/we are in interop/we are using the Interop project
08:57:11 <ntim> ntim: we shouldn't use the interop project as a forcing function for spec work
08:57:17 <ntim> ack miketaylr
08:57:31 <caribou> Mike: Do we have a list of breaking sites or something outside of the test suite
08:57:54 <caribou> Karl: in my job (webcompat) we sometimes have reports of broken websites
08:58:19 <caribou> ... (example of the unimplemented unit issue)
08:58:30 <ntim> WebKit didn't understand rem and other relative units, and we just implemented it because it fixed a site
08:58:39 <caribou> ... so there are sites that suffer from lack of interoperability
08:59:04 <ntim> compat is a forcing function for webkit to handle things
08:59:14 <caribou> scribe+ ntim
08:59:27 <foolip> https://github.com/web-platform-tests/wpt.fyi/blob/main/api/query/README.md#triaged is the docs for the wpt.fyi feature to filter by triage status. The feature to link bugs is the "Triage Mode" toggle to the top right.
08:59:35 <ntim> karlcow: webkit tries to prioritize things that impact sites
09:00:11 <ntim> karlcow: if wix has a broken site because of svg, that will be higher priority than a vague project around SVG
09:00:25 <ntim> miketaylr: that's probably how most browsers do this. users first
09:00:29 <ntim> ack kbabbitt
09:00:36 <foolip> Example for untriaged Chrome failures: https://wpt.fyi/results/svg?label=master&label=experimental&aligned&q=chrome%3Afail%20and%20none%28triaged%3Achrome%29
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09:01:24 <ntim> kbabbitt: I was looking at the list of failures, it's a lot. ydaniv, I want to ask, how did you submit the proposal for Interop project? was it bits and pieces or just the whole of SVG?
09:01:46 <ntim> ydaniv: first one was SVG 1.1, second was an investigation effort.
09:02:02 <ntim> now that the group is back again, we should try to get together again
09:02:15 <foolip> q+
09:02:16 <ntim> kbabbitt: Is SVG potentially too big? should we pick one or two submodules?
09:02:49 <ntim> dirk: I am a member of the working group, it is up to the browser vendors to decide the priorities
09:03:24 <ydaniv> q+
09:03:25 <ntim> sid: I'm also from MS. One of the modules we feel strongly about is SVG link params
09:03:36 <ntim> ack foolip
09:03:56 <ntim> foolip: a small proposal is more likely to get into the interop project than a big one
09:04:23 <ntim> ... if there's evidence of concrete bugs, it's easier to get in interop than "all of SVG"
09:04:55 <karlcow> q+
09:05:10 <ntim> foolip: i like the interop project, but interop should happen everywhere, in all groups. Interop project should really be the last resort. Getting rejected doesn't mean no progress
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09:06:14 <ntim> ydaniv: i want to echo something from leaverou: browser vendors kept saying that there was not enough interest from web devs to work on SVG. State of HTML proved otherwise. There's definitely interest.
09:07:47 <ntim> caribou: it's all of SVG. i recall that SVG in maps was a big use case
09:08:19 <ntim> ydaniv: i think filters was a big issue. We probably need more thought if we want to get more specific
09:08:58 <caribou> Karl: the interop work should be happening in the WG
09:08:59 <foolip> q+
09:10:14 <ntim> karlcow: W3C is where we create the technology. The interoperability should be happening in the working group, because it's the way the tech works. The Interop project should really focus on small details that differ across browsers. We should not use the Interop project to solve all of SVG, that is the job of the WG.
09:10:14 <satakagi> I did the breakout for the distributed architecture using SVG for maps.
09:11:05 <mjackson> q+
09:11:23 <satakagi> However, that's about features for newer SVG, like SVG 2, so it's not relevant to this session.
09:11:29 <ntim> foolip: I just checked the SVG use counters, it's around 60%. It's used a ton on the web, there's not a lot of bugs, presumably because they use editors that use only the interoperable parts.
09:11:41 <ntim> foolip: only way to run into issues is to write them yourself by hand
09:11:55 <mjackson> q-
09:12:04 <ntim> foolip: we should see a path to adoption to do the work
09:12:05 <ntim> ack foolip
09:12:49 <ydaniv> q+
09:12:58 <krit> q+
09:13:04 <ntim> karlcow: yes. in addition to SVG editors, there are graphic libraries that do the link between SVG in canvas. Most of the bugs I've identified in webkit, were bugs where SVG was generated by JS which was setting width/height/etc.
09:13:28 <ntim> ack ydaniv
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09:15:14 <ntim> ydaniv: My company is an authoring tool, we allow uploading SVGs from users, we inline it because we want to allow the user to repaint it/change it/etc. We allow any SVG you want, and you can use them as mask/clip-path/etc... We use almost every single way that you can incorporate SVG and we encounter a lot of issues. It's not just when you write SVGs by hand, it's when you combine with other CSS features, etc.
09:15:33 <ntim> filters is one of the big issues. When we got interop on masks, things got better
09:16:48 <ntim> karlcow: things can be handled differently depending on the platform. WebKit uses CoreGraphics to handle gradients for instance, so sometimes there are dependencies, and it's harder to convince.
09:17:11 <ntim> foolip: It's 60% of page loads
09:17:50 <kbabbitt> q?
09:18:59 <ntim> krit: Yes most of the content is created with editors, that said, we still find issues despite that.
09:19:13 <ntim> krit: editors really try hard to create content that is interoperable
09:19:30 <ntim> to avoid putting the burden on creators
09:19:46 <krit> ack krit
09:20:00 <ntim> ydaniv: A huge pain point of SVG is security. One of the goals should be improving security.
09:20:05 <ntim> karlcow: security inside SVG?
09:20:47 <foolip> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billion_laughs_attack
09:20:53 <ntim> ydaniv: could we remove legacy tags that allows billions laughs attacks?
09:21:01 <ntim> foolip: this is a problem with XML not SVG
09:21:19 <ntim> foolip: browsers have mitigations or crashes?
09:22:02 <ntim> ydaniv: they come to me and ask for help, and all the uploads are sent through santization
09:22:28 <ntim> foolip: you can parse SVG through an XML parser which does not have this problem
09:22:42 <ntim> s/XML/HTML
09:23:42 <ntim> karlcow: Do you use copy paste for SVG? being able to copy an SVG and paste it elsewhere
09:23:59 <ntim> karlcow: SVG in clipboard is a security problem
09:24:16 <foolip> This is https://webstatus.dev/features/clipboard-svg
09:24:44 <foolip> Without knowing any details, I'll assume that the security problems were solved since it's shipped now.
09:24:49 <ntim> ydaniv: if SVG is used, it's usually added by a component that embeds it.
09:25:04 <ntim> karlcow: chrome implements SVG in clipboard
09:25:14 <ntim> ydaniv: was possibly implemented as a paste option
09:26:01 <ntim> karlcow: please feel free to open bugs on spec or browsers
09:26:11 <ntim> krit (Dirk) is the chair of the WG
09:26:25 <ntim> Please join! we need more people
09:26:43 <ntim> RRSAgent, make minutes
09:26:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/12-svg-minutes.html ntim
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13:34:54 <tidoust> rrsagent, bye
13:34:54 <RRSAgent> I see no action items