07:52:53 RRSAgent has joined #holistic-id 07:52:57 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/11/12-holistic-id-irc 07:52:57 RRSAgent, do not leave 07:52:58 RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight 07:52:58 RRSAgent, make logs public 07:53:00 Meeting: Identity Systems and Threats: Towards a Holistic View 07:53:00 Chair: Simone Onofri, patsc 07:53:00 Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/tpac2025-breakouts/issues/55 07:53:00 Zakim has joined #holistic-id 07:53:01 Zakim, clear agenda 07:53:01 agenda cleared 07:53:01 Zakim, agenda+ Pick a scribe 07:53:03 agendum 1 added 07:53:03 Zakim, agenda+ Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy 07:53:03 agendum 2 added 07:53:03 Zakim, agenda+ Goal of this session 07:53:06 agendum 3 added 07:53:06 Zakim, agenda+ Discussion 07:53:06 agendum 4 added 07:53:06 Zakim, agenda+ Next steps / where discussion continues 07:53:06 agendum 5 added 07:53:06 Zakim, agenda+ Adjourn / Use IRC command: Zakim, end meeting 07:53:06 agendum 6 added 07:53:06 breakout-bot has left #holistic-id 08:28:36 tantek-projector has joined #holistic-id 08:29:24 koalie has joined #holistic-id 08:29:51 npdoty has joined #holistic-id 08:30:24 tako has joined #holistic-id 08:31:29 present+ Coralie 08:31:54 present+ 08:32:48 ErikAnderson has joined #holistic-id 08:33:18 present+ 08:33:37 denkeni has joined #holistic-id 08:34:09 rbyers has joined #holistic-id 08:34:32 simone has joined #holistic-id 08:35:55 Patrick: I work for ETH Zurich, and we're going to discuss, like with Simone and Amir, we started talking at GDC and in SING, on how to extend the threat models 08:36:06 hsano has joined #holistic-id 08:36:36 alanbuxey has joined #holistic-id 08:36:38 ... also becouse sometimes threat models cannot be sufficient, presenting the threat stack approach, and having a discussion on that 08:36:44 present+ Alan Buxey 08:37:05 present+ 08:37:11 tara has joined #holistic-id 08:37:29 present+ 08:37:30 ... identity systems are systems that we need to protect with potential security, privacy, and societal impact issues, with different attacks 08:38:00 ... we have the famous picture about dependicy problem for identity solutions 08:38:15 ... when the identity can make the all the systems collapsing 08:38:24 ... as it is a complex design space 08:38:31 ... with differnet use cases 08:38:47 ... e.g., health systems 08:38:51 Kazue has joined #holistic-id 08:39:16 ... we have also different stakeholder 08:39:25 s/stakeholder/stakeholders 08:39:34 csarven has joined #holistic-id 08:39:35 ... e.g., issuers, users, verifiers 08:39:41 present+ 08:39:43 ... and differnt security tools 08:39:59 ... threat modeling, formal verification, game-based proofs 08:40:42 Tatsuya has joined #holistic-id 08:40:42 Yasu_sony has joined #holistic-id 08:41:11 ... we have also different approaches, e.g., formal security proof, and threat models 08:41:47 ... in the crypto layer, we have game-based and crypto implementations 08:42:39 ... it is a quetion of trade-offs 08:42:47 present+ 08:42:47 ErikAnderson has joined #holistic-id 08:43:33 ... e.g., giving or not more freedom to the user 08:44:45 Caroline: this is why we mapped the identity systems components to identity threats on different levels and also security goals and maturity 08:45:41 ... base layer is the math foundations 08:46:19 ... e.g., P=NP :) 08:47:07 present+ 08:47:19 ... we have also crypto primitives 08:47:38 ... on building blocks or assumptions (e.g., random numbers) 08:48:39 ... and on this layer we have different protections, then we have teh hardware and platform 08:49:43 ... there are some incident cases such as the seed extraction on trezor 08:50:03 ... going to the uppere layer we havec the communication protocols (specifications) 08:50:49 ... e.g., EMV credot card protocol bypassed 08:52:01 ... another layer is the role assignment 08:52:08 ... e.g., the attacks on BBS 08:53:12 ... then we have the layer of implementations 08:54:32 ... e.g., data leak on biometric data from police 08:54:41 ... an approach is viper 08:54:53 ... the top layer is UX, ecosystem and interoperability 08:55:15 Kazue has joined #holistic-id 08:55:19 ... e.g., users unaware of implications, misunderstanding 08:55:46 ... and attack is dusting attack 08:56:32 .... or the bug in the covid certification app 08:58:08 ... the idenitified threats can be evaluteds using impact*likelihood matrix 08:58:20 ... thus, risk management strategies 08:58:40 ... e.g., risk acceptance, risk transfer 08:59:02 ... and risk avoidance 08:59:24 ... and mitigation 08:59:57 ... one approach is reducing likelihood 09:00:42 ... but we need to look also at interactions within different layers 09:01:02 ... otherwise that can be wrong assumptions or vulnerabile protocols 09:01:52 ... on the ohter side, also different components on the same layer 09:02:05 ... interaction result is attacks 09:02:30 s/is attacks/in attack/ 09:02:41 ... such as tehe Card Brand Mixup attack 09:03:25 Patrick: the threat stack can be adapted 09:04:35 ... layers can be splitted, consolidated, added or reordered 09:06:47 ... as it is required an holistic approach, not only looking risks at each layer 09:07:10 q? 09:07:26 ... happy to collect feedback and questions 09:07:57 q+ on holistic beyond traditional security 09:08:32 Manu: thank you for the presentation, is there a plan to apply this is digital credentials in W3C 09:08:34 dwaite has joined #holistic-id 09:08:44 Patrick: the idea is to use it as a landscape 09:09:16 ... and it can be used also for communication 09:09:29 q? 09:10:14 Manu: it does makes sense, i am concerned that we do some level on this, but hoping the researchers are also ineterested in looking inside some WGs 09:10:17 ... we need more people 09:10:24 ... to embed them in the groups 09:12:47 Patrick: we can talk with some researchers 09:12:47 Caroline: we are reasoning also on the concept related to the DC API in relation also to EUDI ARF 09:13:06 q? 09:13:08 Dan: +1 to manu 09:14:00 ... how we potentially lock down problems at spec level but the requirements... and shiting left can be useful 09:14:53 Caroline: yes, and security is sometimes a compromise 09:15:01 ack np 09:15:01 npdoty, you wanted to comment on holistic beyond traditional security 09:15:11 manu_ has joined #holistic-id 09:15:24 Nick: thank you for the presentation, good to have an holistic view 09:15:24 q? 09:16:53 ... as I am more on privacy, how you think about threats, such as the one for survelliance when a state can known when i use the credential on the web 09:17:29 Caroline: we captured this threat at UX/Interop level, but maybe we should solve it as a lower level 09:17:39 q+ 09:17:39 ... iterating on the problem 09:18:08 Patrick: you are also pointing on properties on the design phase? 09:18:19 q+ dan 09:18:29 .... at fist we need to make them more explicit 09:18:38 ack dan 09:18:59 Dan: the specific threat, it is something we talked about in the TAG finding 09:19:24 ... on the abuse on credentials and we should work on this related to the standard 09:19:40 ... and a spec should NOT permit this 09:20:00 ... as we talked this morning in the human rights session 09:20:05 q 09:20:07 q? 09:21:11 Patrick: we have a discusssion in CH about the wallet that should be secure by design 09:22:07 Manu: +1 to work on this important problem. I don't know if we can address this at standard layer, but maybe on governance layer 09:22:15 ... that we should influence as an SDO 09:22:21 I'm not sure where to locate the responsibility. it doesn't seem like a usability problem. 09:23:50 we aren't trying to protect against hackers by using some unclear governance layer happening somewhere else 09:23:51 ... I am concerned on how to operationalize this, also to be part of the process 09:23:53 JoeAndrieu has joined #holistic-id 09:24:02 q+ 09:24:29 q+ on interaction across layers 09:24:55 joe: the threat model and the sec consideration section are is the place to write these threats 09:25:04 ... this is when we operationalize it 09:25:08 q? 09:25:12 ack joe 09:25:13 ack manu 09:25:22 Dan: we can also use prompts in specs 09:25:32 q? 09:25:43 ... and use normative requirements 09:25:59 ... we should try 09:26:05 akc np 09:26:09 ack np 09:26:09 npdoty, you wanted to comment on interaction across layers 09:26:32 ErikAnderson has joined #holistic-id 09:27:05 hta has joined #holistic-id 09:27:13 q? 09:27:28 npdoty: the point is how we can try to solve it, this is a challenge for the groups 09:28:04 Patrick: it is related to the gov layer 09:28:14 ... and we need this holistic approach 09:28:15 some people might be okay with risk acceptance, especially if the risk will primarily be borne by a marginalized group 09:29:01 npdoty: might be thrown off by the layer diagram, debating which individual layer can mitigate the risk. but actually need to coordinate between governance and spec design, rather than expecting either to handle it alone. 09:29:07 q+ 09:29:56 simone: To add one point -- often the source, layering of threats are located are on the government, we should consider them as a source of threats. With experience, they just defined the requirements and law and push people to write standards to feed the requirements -- user point of view, who is going to protect the user. 09:29:57 q+ 09:30:09 q- 09:30:14 ack sim 09:30:32 Patrick: happy TPAC 09:30:43 RRSAgent, draft minutes 09:30:44 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/12-holistic-id-minutes.html simone 09:33:47 present+ Patrick_Schaller, Carolin_Beer, Kohei_Watanabe, Takaachi_Nishioka, Takumi_Mouri, Hiroyuki_Sano, Natalia, Markus_Sabadello, Nour_Nabil, Yuichi_Morioka< Masashi_Hirano 09:33:53 RRSagent, make minutes 09:33:54 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/12-holistic-id-minutes.html koalie 09:34:49 present+ Manu_Sporny, DKA, Simone_Onofri, Marcos_Caceres, Joe_Andrieu, Osamu_Nakamura 09:34:52 RRSagent, make minutes 09:34:53 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/12-holistic-id-minutes.html koalie 09:36:51 koalie has left #holistic-id 09:37:25 JoeAndrieu has joined #holistic-id 09:43:23 JoeAndrieu has joined #holistic-id 09:53:07 JoeAndrieu has joined #holistic-id 10:07:02 JoeAndrieu has joined #holistic-id 10:23:09 JoeAndrieu has joined #holistic-id 10:42:01 JoeAndrieu has joined #holistic-id 11:01:31 JoeAndrieu has joined #holistic-id 11:06:26 JoeAndrieu has joined #holistic-id 13:50:12 tidoust has joined #holistic-id 13:50:15 RRSAgent, bye 13:50:15 I see no action items