01:50:11 RRSAgent has joined #future-of-the-open-web 01:50:15 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/11/12-future-of-the-open-web-irc 01:50:15 RRSAgent, do not leave 01:50:16 RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight 01:50:16 RRSAgent, make logs public 01:50:18 Meeting: Future of the Open Web 01:50:18 Chair: Mark Nottingham, David Schinazi 01:50:18 Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/tpac2025-breakouts/issues/37 01:50:18 Zakim has joined #future-of-the-open-web 01:50:19 Zakim, clear agenda 01:50:19 agenda cleared 01:50:19 Zakim, agenda+ Pick a scribe 01:50:20 agendum 1 added 01:50:21 Zakim, agenda+ Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy 01:50:21 agendum 2 added 01:50:21 Zakim, agenda+ Goal of this session 01:50:22 agendum 3 added 01:50:22 Zakim, agenda+ Discussion 01:50:22 agendum 4 added 01:50:22 Zakim, agenda+ Next steps / where discussion continues 01:50:26 agendum 5 added 01:50:26 Zakim, agenda+ Adjourn / Use IRC command: Zakim, end meeting 01:50:26 agendum 6 added 01:50:26 breakout-bot has left #future-of-the-open-web 02:10:48 kizu has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:13:15 Bert has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:13:28 cwilso has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:13:36 kleber has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:13:45 alisonmaher has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:13:57 present+ 02:14:02 present+ 02:14:07 present+ 02:14:18 present+ 02:14:57 cfredric has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:15:04 dschinazi has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:15:04 MasaoG has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:15:04 rbyers has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:15:16 jan has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:15:22 dom has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:15:22 gendler has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:15:24 mt_hates_irc has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:15:27 Present+ 02:15:28 present+ 02:15:38 pchampin has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:15:41 brent has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:15:46 amy has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:15:50 present+ 02:15:53 present+ 02:15:55 present+ 02:16:00 SS has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:16:14 present+ 02:16:17 hi, I will be your compere this evening. If you have something to say, first, consider keeping it to yourself. If that fails, q+ will register your interest in sharing it with the world 02:16:20 hober has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:16:24 Jxck has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:16:25 present+ 02:16:29 plh has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:16:31 nidhi has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:16:37 niklasmerz has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:16:43 Siyaman has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:16:46 present+ 02:16:46 bvandersloot has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:16:50 present+ 02:16:57 present+ 02:17:00 tomayac has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:17:07 Present+ Thomas_Steiner 02:17:18 johannhof has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:17:23 EmLauber has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:17:30 kazho has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:17:34 present+ David Baron, Roman Komarov, Ivan Yanamadala, Max Gendler, Chris Harrelson, Jxck, Ken Franqueiro, Ugur, Rick Byers, Sam Goto, Mason 02:17:43 gerald has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:17:49 present+ 02:17:49 aaj has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:18:13 saku has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:18:22 nwatson has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:18:33 q? 02:18:49 zcorpan has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:18:51 kenneth has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:18:54 goto has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:19:12 masonf has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:19:12 scribe+ 02:19:18 present+ 02:19:23 present+ morx3x, Penny, Yuichi Morioka, Paola DM 02:19:28 present+ 02:19:34 sarahj has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:19:42 MarkN: broad discussion on understanding the impact of AI on keeping the Web open, following up on a similar conversion at IETF last week 02:19:47 devlin has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:19:55 plinss has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:20:02 cfredric has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:20:06 topics to consider: what is open? what incentive structures exist in support of that openness? 02:20:08 DavidS: AI-Prefs at IETF revising robots.txt to give instructions to AI crawlers 02:20:26 Dingwei has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:20:35 ... WebBotAuth looking at whether authenticating bots would help regulate their behavior 02:20:49 Mark: people have different ideas about what the "Open Web" is 02:21:04 bvandersloot has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:21:07 ... open availability of content has depended on a number of factors: 02:21:13 jyasskin has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:21:15 reillyg has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:21:16 ... - advertizing for monetization 02:21:17 openness in standards, openness in implementation, openness in participation, openness in services and content. 02:21:19 Haruki has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:21:26 ... - free for a while and for-pay 02:21:27 present+ 02:21:35 ... - community participation / reputation 02:22:00 ... what worries me the most is places where people want to make their content open for altruistic reasons and suddenly close it because of AI scraping 02:22:06 ningxin has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:22:09 q? 02:22:21 Mark: I'd love to hear what people think of directions for the open web 02:22:23 erictrouton has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:22:42 q+ sean 02:22:44 MT: the Web is not open right now 02:22:48 alisonmaher has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:22:50 chrishtr has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:22:53 MarkN: would be interesting to measure at the moment 02:23:12 cpn has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:23:14 SeanT: what was discussed at IETF? 02:23:17 present+ 02:23:37 dschinazi has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:23:38 ack sean 02:24:01 MarkN: we have notes linked from the calendar invite 02:24:12 mgifford2 has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:24:16 ... the IETF community focused on identity and authentication 02:24:21 q? 02:24:26 q+ 02:24:52 q+ for Heather 02:24:55 ack cpn 02:24:56 cpn: we're having this conversation because the emergence of generative AI 02:25:01 kbx has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:25:12 q+ 02:25:13 tzviya has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:25:13 Itoe has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:25:18 astearns has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:25:24 ... in my opinion, generative AI has exploited how copyright is, as a free for all to gather a huge amount of data for LLM and so on 02:25:35 ... as a rep of a publishing org, we find this deeply exploitative 02:25:42 hadleybeeman has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:25:43 ... none of this has happened with the consent of content publishers 02:25:46 present+ 02:25:49 tantek-projector has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:25:51 philippp has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:25:52 oliverdunk has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:25:52 present+ 02:25:57 ota has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:25:59 s/present+// 02:26:00 ... we would be looking for to a much more consensual model of data explotation 02:26:18 ... ML and AI is a great innovation, but lt's make it happen in a consensual manner 02:26:20 present+ 02:26:33 tantek has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:26:33 present+ 02:26:33 doniv has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:26:33 q+ 02:26:33 ... give a choice to content publishers on the use of their content 02:26:33 q? 02:26:33 RRSAgent, pointer 02:26:33 See https://www.w3.org/2025/11/12-future-of-the-open-web-irc#T02-26-33-6 02:26:41 RRSAgent, make minutes public 02:26:41 I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', tantek. Try /msg RRSAgent help 02:26:46 ... huge imbalance, with so much energy and investment in an extractive approach 02:26:48 RRSAgent, make logs public 02:27:03 lei_zhao6 has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:27:05 ... the goal was always to provide content to people, not to feed a machine to displace the content publishers 02:27:06 q? 02:27:26 yoav has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:27:34 Heather: after the IETF meeting, I did a little bit of research 02:27:38 ack EmLauber 02:27:38 EmLauber, you wanted to discuss Heather 02:27:44 ... this is very similar t othe conversation about what is an open standards organization 02:27:52 ... there is an ITU definition and the openstand principles 02:27:56 RRSAgent, draft minutes 02:27:58 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/12-future-of-the-open-web-minutes.html tomayac 02:28:07 ... mozilla also took a start at defining the open web 02:28:13 ack jyasskin 02:28:18 ... maybe these would be worth considering for a definition of an open web 02:28:24 jyasskin: you asked what is the open web 02:28:48 q? 02:28:55 ... my start of an answer: if you're looking at a content, you can find its name, share it with a friend with the agent of your choice 02:29:11 ... and it costs them something proportionate to the value of the content 02:29:16 SS has left #future-of-the-open-web 02:29:19 ... people write content for a bunch of reasons 02:29:35 ... when that content gets intermediated via an AI system, a lot of the reasons why people write content goes away 02:29:35 krgovind has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:29:36 dschinazi has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:29:47 ... and this isi not just for money, e.g. wikipedia, bcc 02:30:04 ... the value can come from other sources than direct monetization 02:30:04 present+ Bert Bos 02:30:05 present- 02:30:07 ack bvandersloot 02:30:14 q+ re: "what is the open web" question, I'll stand by my blog post from 15y ago: https://tantek.com/2010/281/b1/what-is-the-open-web 02:30:27 brentz has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:30:35 csarven has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:30:35 bvandersloot: the production of content by generative AI is also an issue to consider 02:30:52 ... dirty cheap content to make at scale, it makes it very easy to produce a lot of inauthentic content 02:30:55 present+ 02:30:58 ... overloading the open Web with slope 02:31:02 ack dbaron 02:31:03 s/slope/slop 02:31:12 johannhof has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:31:21 kazho has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:31:23 DavidBaron: lots of different definitions of the open web, not sure we can come to consensus on one 02:31:27 q+ isac 02:31:39 ... the ability to write new tools that deal with the Web 02:31:49 ... either to publish, serve, consume content (e.g. new browsers) 02:31:55 bvandersloot: it's authentic, bespoke, LLM-rolled content, produced on lovingly crafted silicon, designed to deliver joy and engagement 02:32:02 tantek: +1 to DavidB 02:32:11 ack tantek 02:32:11 tantek, you wanted to discuss "what is the open web" question, I'll stand by my blog post from 15y ago: https://tantek.com/2010/281/b1/what-is-the-open-web 02:32:19 ... I wrote a blog post on this 15 years ago, still stands 02:32:46 ... being able to write such a blog post, being able to share it, being able to have it discovered 02:32:59 ... plenty of open web not linked to advertising 02:33:17 ... the open web shouldn't be based on the assumption of any particular bsuiness models 02:33:33 q+ 02:33:37 ack isac 02:33:49 isaac_MS: I work on MS ads 02:33:59 Ugur has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:34:07 q+ 02:34:12 ... is content behind paywalls part of the Open Web? 02:34:28 Just wanted to raise this perspective on the open web from the Drupal community https://dri.es/drupal-open-web-manifesto 02:34:37 ... some publishers are interested in enforcing publishing rights to avoid getting extracted by AI crawlers 02:34:46 ... if they do, will be left with just slop? 02:34:56 jyasskin: it's a spectrum, not a binary state 02:35:00 EmLauber has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:35:09 hdv has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:35:15 present+ 02:35:15 ... when something that was freely available goes behind a paywall, it has been at least partially removed from the paywall 02:35:35 ... if this is a per-article cost, that feels proportional to the value of the content 02:35:36 q+ 02:35:53 ... if this is a full subscription, that feels like less proportional 02:35:57 ack kleber 02:36:02 MichaelKleber: (Chrome) 02:36:10 domfarolino has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:36:16 erictrouton has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:36:25 ... interested in terms and conditions of how content is used after crawling 02:36:27 igarashi has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:36:53 present+ 02:36:56 ... people that are producing content on the Web who would like to have some more rigid expectations about how it is used after it is retrieved 02:36:59 ... that has 2 aspects 02:37:06 present+ 02:37:16 ... one on the policy side - attach legal conditions about how it can be used, e.G. copyright notice 02:37:31 cfredric has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:37:51 ... alternatively, a technical side: visible to some agents and not to others based on knowing/being promised something about how they're going to use the information they've retrived 02:38:00 .... either through promises, reputation, business relationship 02:38:12 ... there are potential ways on both sides on expectations for information re-use 02:38:29 ... if you work on the technical side, you need to know who the agent is for consistent treatment 02:38:34 aaj has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:38:44 q? 02:38:44 niklasmerz has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:38:47 DavidS: exact summary of the discussions we've been having at IETF on the two groups I mentioned earlier 02:38:56 Mark: AI Prefs and WebBotAUth 02:38:59 ... it's not easy 02:39:31 mikbar has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:39:37 MichaelK: on preferences - do we always expect this to come from publishers? or from the crawler? (my way or no way) 02:39:39 q+ 02:40:01 ... or an action process? a negotation, with possible fallbacks on ad-hoc processes 02:41:03 Itoe has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:41:32 q+ 02:41:34 MarkN: part of the push back we've had in adding this to robots.txt is that crawlers fear they might blocked for unexpected re-use 02:41:56 sarahj6 has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:42:04 q+ 02:42:09 doniv has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:42:10 EmLauber has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:42:16 hober: I don't think defining the open web matters - what I care about is the ecosystem 02:42:33 ... the forces acting on that ecosystem and the levers and parameters we have to tweak 02:42:34 kleber has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:42:49 ... the current concern about AI related crawling is maybe a new pressure on the ecosystem 02:43:01 ... or a different degree of an existing one 02:43:15 ... the Web is a conversation between publishers and consumers, incl remixers 02:43:22 q- 02:43:26 vasilii has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:43:31 ... we should focus on these pressures and the levers available to manage it 02:43:33 ack hober 02:43:35 ack hober 02:43:38 ack mt_hates_irc 02:43:48 mt: what do people put web site up? we don't know 02:43:54 q+ to address Tess: we need some sort of definition of what we want to preserve 02:44:08 ... how it is that the sites putting stuff online sustain themsevels? 02:44:17 q+ 02:44:22 ... some of it is selling product, providing advertizing 02:44:26 ... there is an economic side 02:44:39 q+ 02:44:39 ... the Web is a (particularly good) means to an end 02:44:42 sarahj has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:44:51 ... enabling people to have that conversation 02:44:52 https://www.w3.org/TR/ethical-web-principles/ should help this discussion. 02:44:52 > The web should be a platform that helps people and provides a positive social benefit. 02:44:52 > The web should empower an equitable, informed, and interconnected society. It has been, and should continue to be, designed to enable communication and knowledge-sharing for everyone. 02:44:56 erisu has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:45:01 ... Maybe that time is gone - mic drop 02:45:06 q? 02:45:06 ack hdv 02:45:10 q+ 02:45:13 Hidde: a lot of people incl me have a site on the open web 02:45:24 erictrouton has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:45:28 ... I don't want it to be crawled and have use multiple mechanisms to express it 02:45:32 ... and it is being ignored 02:45:38 ... part of it is regulatory 02:46:16 ... are companies involved in AI prefs among those crawling this content? if not, can we get them involved 02:46:41 MarkN: they were not deeply involved, but the EU code of practice is calling to follow robots.txt 02:46:54 sarahj has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:46:54 ... which changed the composition of the group, incl the # of lawyers in it 02:46:59 ack rbyers 02:47:22 RickB: getting more data about the Open Web - I would be interested in providing data from Chrome usage 02:47:38 ... we have Crux which could help shed light, happy to hear suggestions 02:47:56 q+ 02:48:09 ... Tantek shouldn't be tied to specific business models; have we made a mistake in assuming a particular business model? are there business models that are missing and that we should invest in? 02:48:27 MarkN: re data collection, I've been talking with CloudFlare Radar, CommonCrawl 02:48:36 ... maybe we should all chat - but we may need common definitions 02:48:37 ack jyasskin 02:48:37 jyasskin, you wanted to address Tess: we need some sort of definition of what we want to preserve 02:48:55 jyasskin: Tess' point on definition: we need to look at what we value on the open web 02:49:05 ... what to preserve - then work on perserving it 02:49:24 ack hadleybeeman 02:49:26 ack hadleybeeman 02:49:34 hadleybeeman: also on the TAG 02:49:45 ... find this conversation difficult to have without use cases 02:49:59 q- 02:50:04 ... even with a paywall, as a developer still use open technologies 02:50:13 ... as a user, paying the fare cost of content production feels open 02:50:20 ... conversely I hate ads as a user 02:50:25 ... esp with tracking 02:50:25 this is SUCH a different conversation from the one we had last week 02:50:32 EmLauber has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:50:43 ... in the TAG we have discussed agentic AI and how it relates to the notion of user agent 02:50:48 q- 02:50:54 ... some aspects are part of the open web, some aren't 02:51:05 q? 02:51:07 q+ re: Tess's point of what we value on the open web. frankly to give two examples: Wikipedia and Internet Archive are two of the most important sites on the open web, have zero ad-based business model, zero paywalls. There's tons of opportunities for more such things on the open web that don't depend on the enshittified models of many of today's 02:51:07 businesses 02:51:12 markN: "open" is way too used, there are various degrees of openness 02:51:23 q+ to talk about commons 02:51:49 reillyg: without my chrome hat off, speaking as a publisher of content on the Web 02:52:05 ... in the early days of the Web, people published content of the web just because they could 02:52:11 ... a lot of the commercial publishing came later 02:52:15 +1 reillyg: in the early days of the web people published content because they just wanted to 02:52:26 ... it has made the Web better by bringing more content 02:52:37 ... everything do is for people, to make people's life better 02:52:38 vq? 02:53:20 ack chrishtr 02:53:20 chrishtr: (Google) I like the Open Web, I find it hard to see a future where it goes away and gets replaced by something as good 02:53:20 q+ 02:53:30 ... interested in hearing more from mt 02:53:33 mchampion6 has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:53:37 +1 chrishtr 02:53:47 mt: I don't have a better solution, I was a bit inflammatory 02:53:55 chrishtr: still, what ends is the Web a means to? 02:54:11 mt: there are many ends it serves, not fair to prioritize them 02:54:15 scheib has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:54:22 ... it's a platform for commerce, a platform for exchange of ideas 02:54:24 present+ 02:54:31 ... social media has more postiives than negatives 02:54:43 ... the way people publish information for other purposes, that enriches the world 02:54:46 q+ to also note Open Street Maps and all the personal sites and blogs of everyone here 02:54:48 vq? 02:54:56 niklasmerz has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:54:59 ... all of this is possible of the Web, and this is not an exhaustive list, nor would that list be short 02:55:08 ... I struggle to think if something could be better than that 02:55:20 q+ 02:55:22 ... but it's worth challenging ourselves on this, instead of just looking at ads revenue 02:55:32 ack tantek 02:55:32 tantek, you wanted to discuss Tess's point of what we value on the open web. frankly to give two examples: Wikipedia and Internet Archive are two of the most important sites on the 02:55:35 ... open web, have zero ad-based business model, zero paywalls. There's tons of opportunities for more such things on the open web that don't depend on the enshittified models of 02:55:35 ... many of today's and to also note Open Street Maps and all the personal sites and blogs of everyone here 02:55:41 tantek: what do we value on the Open Web? what are the use cases? 02:55:48 ... ^ 02:56:11 kbx has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:56:12 erisu has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:56:24 tantek identified wikipedia, open street map, zombo.com, internet archive 02:56:35 ... if you had pitched wikipedia and openstreetmap before they existed, you would have heard these were impossible given human nature, and yet, there you go 02:56:55 ... also all the personal blog - they don't rely on advertizing 02:56:58 https://patternsofcommoning.org/uncategorized/eight-design-principles-for-successful-commons/ 02:57:02 ack jyasskin 02:57:02 jyasskin, you wanted to talk about commons 02:57:09 plus lots of blogs that people put up for no reason other than to share information or their love of 02:57:10 DanD has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:57:13 jyasskin: I spent the end of last year research on the commons 02:57:21 +1 mt_hates_irc 02:57:29 ... one of her conclusions is that there are several design principles for commons, which I think the Web is 02:57:34 EmLauber has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:57:38 s/research/reading Elinor Ostrom's research/ 02:57:38 ... successful commons have well defined boundaries 02:57:44 +1 tantek 02:57:45 anyone have a reference for that's book on the commons? 02:57:51 ... both in terms of what can be extracted from it and the boundaries of the commons itself 02:57:54 kleber has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:57:59 q? 02:57:59 ... that conflicts with the notion of "open" 02:58:02 I think the web has disproven that assertion about the commons. 02:58:07 ... we need to define these boundaries 02:58:14 I believe in the web more than a book written by an academic 02:58:16 ... we are the governance of that commons 02:58:24 Mark: we are A governance 02:58:31 q? 02:58:33 Jxck has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:58:33 q+ 02:58:35 ack kleber 02:59:02 q- 02:59:05 kleber: (Google) want to speak in support of advertizing given its property to make content available to both rich and poor people 02:59:20 yoav has joined #future-of-the-open-web 02:59:25 q+ isaac 02:59:35 ... looking at new business models and new negotiation models between publishers and consumers should keep that property in mind 02:59:40 I spoke up in support of advertising last week, as a form of progressive taxation, but noted that it depends on having a reasonable portion of discretionary income available to many people in order to be effective, because of the way that advertising works 02:59:49 qq+ to respond to the "poor people vs rich people" as if that's exclusive to ads. it's not. the examples I gave, Wikipedia, OSM, IA are also available to "poor people vs rich people", in contrast, a lot of very ad-heavy sites do not perform or work on older devices. 02:59:54