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04:40:08 <breakout-bot> Meeting: Declarative Partial Updates - Customizing navigation experience
04:40:08 <breakout-bot> Chair: Noam Rosenthal
04:40:08 <breakout-bot> Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/tpac2025-breakouts/issues/66
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04:40:09 <breakout-bot> Zakim, clear agenda
04:40:09 <Zakim> agenda cleared
04:40:09 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Pick a scribe
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04:40:10 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy
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04:40:10 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Goal of this session
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04:40:11 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Discussion
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04:40:12 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Next steps / where discussion continues
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04:40:13 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Adjourn / Use IRC command: Zakim, end meeting
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05:14:43 <breakout-bot> Meeting: Declarative Partial Updates - Customizing navigation experience
05:14:43 <breakout-bot> Chair: Noam Rosenthal
05:14:43 <breakout-bot> Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/tpac2025-breakouts/issues/66
05:14:43 <breakout-bot> Zakim, clear agenda
05:14:43 <Zakim> agenda cleared
05:14:43 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Pick a scribe
05:14:44 <Zakim> agendum 1 added
05:14:45 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy
05:14:45 <Zakim> agendum 2 added
05:14:45 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Goal of this session
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05:14:46 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Discussion
05:14:46 <Zakim> agendum 4 added
05:14:46 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Next steps / where discussion continues
05:14:47 <Zakim> agendum 5 added
05:14:48 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Adjourn / Use IRC command: Zakim, end meeting
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05:42:19 <masonf> Zakim, start meeting
05:42:20 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
05:42:22 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), masonf
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05:42:29 <masonf> meeting: declarative partial updates
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05:47:10 <mmocny> NoamR: Discussing Declarative Partial Updates
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05:47:17 <mmocny> ... we can bikeshed the name.
05:47:18 <wendyreid> scribe+ mmocny
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05:47:26 <mmocny> ... collection of a few different things with a common name
05:47:35 <mmocny> ... common purpose
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05:47:42 <mmocny> ... but they work on their own without the rest
05:47:56 <mmocny> ... individually useful, but work nicely when combined
05:48:11 <mmocny> ... I will go over all of it in breadth first, shallow, then in depth with questions from the room
05:48:36 <mmocny> ... (joke about photo)
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05:48:50 <mmocny> ... this is about the navigation experience on the web
05:49:07 <mmocny> ... make it feel like moving between pages or states, whatever that means, make sure it is fast and smooth and customizable
05:49:13 <mmocny> ... i.e. brand, creativity
05:49:29 <mmocny> ... fast and smooth sometimes are at odds with each other
05:49:54 <mmocny> ... in the last year, most of the features are "defer" or "later" all these things... render blocking... everything later, but want things to be fast... and smooth
05:50:06 <mmocny> ... animations are smooth but by definition slower than instant
05:50:17 <mmocny> ... third part is customizability for authors
05:50:33 <mmocny> ... a design principle for this: declarative is key
05:50:51 <mmocny> ... that word can be overloaded with many meanings.  Ours is: less event-driven javascript that you have to use in real time
05:51:20 <mmocny> ... declarative doesn't mean no JS, it might be useful to use script to define a set of rules-- but shouldnt be needed in real time
05:51:53 <mmocny> ... declarative by that definition-- we have less jank, less bundle size, less lifecycle errors (than script), ... and more opportunties for browser optimizations
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05:52:11 <mmocny> ... We have 3 meta-features:
05:52:21 <mmocny> ... Updating the DOM
05:52:22 <tomayac> Present+ Thomas_Steiner
05:52:43 <mmocny> ... there are low level primitives right now, one fragment at a time, or stream into the main document response
05:53:14 <mmocny> ... but when you start wanting to update the document, you cannot stream... now you have to write scripts in real time for every change in the DOM... this is the role of frameworks much of the time... respond to event and make updates to dom
05:53:23 <mmocny> ... two solutions : out-of-order streaming , and stream to element
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05:53:31 <mmocny> ... 2: Gestures
05:54:14 <mmocny> ... Right now supported gestures are scrolling and clicking (this is a gesture), most interfaces are just this-- but native counterparts have a lot more gestures, more swiping (dismiss, refresh, etc)
05:54:22 <masonf> swipe left, swipe right
05:54:31 <tomayac> RRSAgent draft minutes
05:54:45 <mmocny> ... today uou have to use libraries that deal with tyouch events, and this is difficult
05:54:53 <wendyreid> rrsagent, please draft minutes
05:54:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/12-decl-partial-updates-minutes.html wendyreid
05:55:01 <mmocny> ... need to use position sticky and multuiple scroller elements
05:55:16 <wendyreid> rrsagent, make logs public
05:55:18 <mmocny> ... with native gestures, you perform actions, like swipe to dismiss
05:55:33 <mmocny> ... (snap-to-activate)
05:55:49 <mmocny> ... another value of declarative is (main thread congestion)
05:56:14 <mmocny> ... I come to this from web perforamnce, and there is a lot of congestion on the main thread, and a lot of the value of this work is to be able to delegate, content templating to a worker or server
05:56:33 <mmocny> ... and gestures to a compositor, and things browsers can parallelize, without having to make js threads
05:56:44 <mmocny> ... Stream to element: being able to drive UI updates from server or worker
05:57:24 <mmocny> ... From a server it is very common from frameworks, like React, renderToStream.  Takes a react tree that isn't ready and puts in placeholders. Same is marko.  Others that dont have this have open issues for it (like Nuxt)
05:57:36 <mmocny> ... Other UIs are very dynamic, i.e. chat-style
05:57:52 <mmocny> ... these are served as-they-come and can be out of order
05:57:58 <mmocny> ... (showcase code example)
05:58:37 <mmocny> ... Stream html to shadow root, unsafe version is to trust the source, then example of how to use it (piping)
05:58:50 <lea> q?
05:58:50 <mmocny> ... From that moment on, the html goes from response to element
05:59:12 <mmocny> ... You can do whatever you want in that stream, no oppinions
05:59:28 <mmocny> ... Out of Order streaming
05:59:41 <mmocny> ... (another example): serving content when it is ready
06:00:02 <mmocny> ... example, select box with a list of countries.  Often start with loading... and then you fill the list with a slow library to get a list
06:00:16 <mmocny> ... (example shows template element that will replace children)
06:00:31 <mmocny> ... Will replace things in the order they become ready from server
06:00:50 <mmocny> ... Overscroll Gestures: reveal/conceal elements
06:01:07 <mmocny> ... examples from bluesky.  Today they have this in native and not in the PWA, because it was hard.  And sad.
06:01:26 <mmocny> ... (Example, but this one is less advanced in terms of spec discussions, so this is WIP)
06:01:37 <mmocny> ... Example drawer-menu and overscroll area
06:01:51 <mmocny> ... so the menu is a think on top of the container
06:02:05 <mmocny> ... Will discuss more in the CSS WG on Friday morning
06:02:24 <mmocny> ... Snap to Activate: gestures as progressive enhancements from clicking
06:02:42 <mmocny> ... often you would have a button that does the same things
06:03:01 <mmocny> ... accessibility guidelines say to have a button, but gestures enhance the experience
06:03:18 <mmocny> ... when you scroll snap to a place, you will actually click something
06:04:01 <mmocny> ... initial ARIA conversations: if we do it right, could also connect this to screen readers.. i.e. if you scroll left/up you will show menu or reload... so you finally get semantics vs what you have today with manual handlers and actions
06:04:34 <mmocny> ... also: predictive things, since we know where you are going or might go, we can predictively load new content for example, or reveal a tab in a list of tabs, start streams
06:04:57 <mmocny> ... this is not designed at all, but it is a progressive enhancement
06:05:12 <mmocny> ... create a relationship between items, snap --> click
06:05:24 <mmocny> CSS Route Matching: style based on document URL
06:05:51 <mmocny> ... apologies this is so broad-- partially this is just to give you FYI so you can followup in the repo
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06:06:26 <mmocny> ... This is about styling the navigation experience.  A year ago we released cross-document view transitions, declaratively between pages
06:06:42 <mmocny> ... but we found that in order to make it custmizable you really need to know where you are coming from AND going to
06:07:10 <mmocny> ... in order to do this, currently you need to intercept the events on both sides, the url you are coming from and to and make custom decisions -- not very declarative
06:07:31 <mmocny> ... recently on bluesky someone said that using cross document VTs is like flying without a direction
06:07:44 <mmocny> ... it is too hard... we will talk more about this on Friday
06:08:01 <mmocny> ... (example of css route matching) where from / at / to
06:08:27 <mmocny> ... e.g. going from movie list to movie details, it will... expand-thumb-to-hero
06:08:48 <mmocny> ... lets you Express this where it belongs.
06:09:00 <mmocny> ... preview before commit: And allowing you to customize this with script.
06:09:08 <mmocny> ... lets you show an exit thing
06:09:17 <mmocny> ... This is not declarative but it is customizable
06:09:38 <mmocny> ... if we are not ready to render yet, will show a same-document navigation of a preview, and then switch to cross document
06:09:53 <mmocny> ... or we could make it declarative if a navigation prefers...
06:09:59 <emilio> q?
06:09:59 <JakeA> q+
06:09:59 <mmocny> ... we are done! lets get to the queue
06:10:00 <jcayzac> q+
06:10:03 <dmurph> q+
06:10:05 <kbabbitt> q+
06:10:05 <zcorpan> q+ to say auto-clicking on scroll snap defined in css could be sec-sensitive
06:10:10 <mmocny> q?
06:10:16 <masonf> ack Jake
06:10:42 <mmocny> JakeA: if you create two writeables at the same time, will they be racy?
06:10:49 <wendyreid> q+
06:11:02 <mmocny> Noam: Yes! we thought about it then said lets try it its easier
06:11:07 <mmocny> JakeA: Q about example
06:11:11 <mmocny> NoamR: it was wrong...
06:11:17 <mmocny> JakeR: innerHTML question
06:11:23 <lea> q+
06:11:56 <mmocny> NoamR: by default it would not expand template, because that would interfere with existing sanitizers, but when you stream append for example with patches, then it would apply
06:12:12 <mmocny> JakeR: in the scope of entire document?
06:12:15 <mmocny> NoamR: No wherever it applies to, parent of the template
06:12:18 <mmocny> shared anscestor?
06:12:55 <mmocny> JakeR: will this encourage updates anywhere in document, get writable for the whole body?
06:13:07 <mmocny> Philip: might have a mode that only does append, but dont have that...
06:13:33 <mmocny> NoamR: They dont interfere with each other because they have a separate parser, but appending to dom could interleave ...
06:14:00 <mmocny> JakeR: (asking about the example, nuanced question)
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06:14:07 <JakeA> q-
06:14:13 <matatk> present+
06:14:15 <masonf> ack jcayzac
06:14:25 <mmocny> jcayzac: <missed the q>
06:14:58 <masonf> s/missed the q/is there a declarative way to use streamHTMLUnsafe
06:14:59 <mmocny> NoamR: Yes eventually, but this is first step, HTMX was inspiration, but we want to be careful about not being oppinionated.  HTMX can be oppinionated-- and that is okay for a framework
06:15:02 <masonf> (or at least that's what I heard)
06:15:31 <mmocny> NoamR: if there will become value to layer oppinions on top of primitives we can evaluate, but want to start with less script/events needed first
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06:15:47 <masonf> ack dmurph
06:16:11 <mmocny> dmurph: this is cool, I like it.  We spent time on the previous page, document to navigate, scoped to PWAs...
06:16:35 <mmocny> dmurph: link capturing, navigation capturing now, destination can declare and intercept, handle in a more interesting way
06:17:01 <mmocny> dmurph: right now the most advanced thing is focus my tab-- but now we could do navigate api... im interested in this!
06:17:13 <mmocny> NoamR: Is this just navigation api?
06:17:27 <JakeA> q+
06:17:32 <mmocny> dmurph: its more, i.e. clicking a link to a calendar to figma, and normally open window, but now you can switch to window in document
06:17:47 <mmocny> dmurph: (asking about example of worker/sw)
06:18:07 <mmocny> NoamR: I would summarize all of this as integrating this proposal/parts with the navigation api
06:18:15 <mmocny> NoamR: Lets chat later!
06:18:19 <masonf> ack kbabbitt
06:18:26 <mmocny> kbabbitt: I also love it
06:19:06 <mmocny> kbabbitt: Wondering about making more declaraitve-- reminds me of (?) svg, and building skeleton and then piping to text decoder and pipe to element
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06:19:35 <mmocny> NoamR: Discussions about templating, dom parts, things going on in parallel-- but felt like we should go one step at a time-- lets enable a primitive for streaming first
06:19:39 <wanderview> q?
06:19:44 <wanderview> q+
06:19:59 <mmocny> NoamR: No need for detached document streaming that has lots of constraints.  Once the dust settles we can return to it next.
06:20:08 <masonf> ack zcorpan
06:20:08 <Zakim> zcorpan, you wanted to say auto-clicking on scroll snap defined in css could be sec-sensitive
06:20:12 <kbabbitt> s/(?) svg/svg filter declaration/
06:20:34 <mmocny> zcorpan: Scroll-snap-to-activate idea, seems like a new idea added to css, trusted clicks might be security sensitive
06:20:54 <mmocny> zcorpan: today might allow untrusted css, which might allow css-providers to cause trusted clicks that aren't expected
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06:21:16 <mmocny> NoamR: it sort of can already do that by putting UI on top of buttons... css can already make you do things (by convincing details)
06:21:26 <mmocny> NoamR: the other part of this is, its just a proposal for now
06:21:30 <mmocny> zcorpan: just noting
06:22:09 <masonf> q?
06:22:09 <mmocny> ??: Related to that scrolling doesn't count as transient user activation and now it will trigger this based on what the user would previously consider a scroll
06:22:13 <masonf> ack wendyreid
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06:22:47 <mmocny> wendyreid: soudns really cool.  Some more to consider: interaction with the screen reader and concerns about dynamic content and not updating accessibility tree quickly (its janky often today already).
06:22:56 <camille> q+
06:23:04 <mmocny> wendyreid: overscroll concerns, single pointer gesture... cannot rely on swiping as the only way to do things
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06:23:17 <mmocny> wendyreid: how would we commicate that to screen readers and other AT's
06:23:39 <mmocny> wendyreid: the idea of more gestures to the web presents some opprortunity for "reduces gestures" akin to reduced motion?
06:23:56 <mmocny> wendyreid: ...there is a lot.  But its really cool.
06:24:15 <mmocny> Bas: what do Native apis do for this?
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06:24:44 <mmocny> wendyreid: their are some control for not accepting or reducing gestures, and when you use AT's the gestures are taken out automatically.
06:24:52 <mmocny> Bas: is the content author responsible?
06:25:04 <masonf> ack lea
06:25:05 <mmocny> wendyreid: you need to not override defaults (?)
06:25:31 <mmocny> lea: Q about writablestream-- will you be streaming HTML (yes) -- what about streaming data like JSON, can you write a transform stream?
06:25:41 <mmocny> JakeR: Yes, you can write your own transform stream
06:25:45 <mmocny> NoamR: and you can do that in a worker
06:26:03 <mmocny> NoamR: you can do fancy things like GraphQL
06:26:21 <masonf> ack Jake
06:26:22 <mmocny> (??) stream of html that gets turned into elements
06:26:45 <mmocny> JakeA: ... question aboiut run-scripts option?
06:27:06 <mmocny> JakeA: I've been hoping to make this behave like regular html parser, ie html includes
06:27:14 <mmocny> Philip: as close to fragment parser not main parser
06:27:22 <mmocny> ... it will be like setting innerHTML
06:27:38 <mmocny> NoamR: will act as a regular fragment or contextual fragment that does run scripts
06:27:46 <mmocny> JakeA: I would like to go further than that...
06:28:01 <mmocny> Philip: Want to add additional controls to add one by one, but by default act like innerHTML
06:28:27 <wendyreid> s/override defaults (?)/override default screenreader gestures/
06:28:28 <mmocny> Because it is streaming running script end to end would be consistent-- thats what jake wants
06:28:29 <masonf> ack wanderview
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06:28:47 <mmocny> wanderview: abort controller integration?
06:28:58 <mmocny> Philip: There is no promise, but you can abort a stream
06:29:15 <mmocny> JakeA: maybe a similar Q-- what happens when the stream errors?
06:29:28 <mmocny> NoamR: it just stops what it was doing, and everyone gets an error
06:29:57 <mmocny> (reference to abort the parser spec, ...)
06:30:11 <mmocny> wanderview: does anything happen when the pipe completes
06:30:14 <frehner> q?
06:30:18 <mmocny> wanderview: is there an event?
06:30:33 <mmocny> NoamR: possible we could have an event, or for errors i.e. fail to match to content
06:30:54 <JakeA> q+
06:31:11 <mmocny> wanderview: this might make things more tightly coupled-- what creates content and the ... reference to 'load' events
06:31:24 <frehner> q+
06:31:26 <mmocny> NoamR: deliberately didn't want to do that-- but you can generate your own events
06:31:55 <masonf> ack camille
06:31:58 <mmocny> We could fire these events onto document, because no event target, but haven't throuhg it through
06:32:17 <mmocny> camille: Q about streaming html and trusted types
06:32:35 <mmocny> Philip: we discussed this, but cannot make streaming compat with trusted types, because of chunks
06:32:44 <mmocny> camille: I get that but...
06:33:08 <mmocny> Philip: For now, if you have trusted types, streaming simply wont work-- but we want to update the sanitizer spec for streaming
06:33:22 <mmocny> camille: Reference to the options for safe/unsafe
06:33:54 <mmocny> NoamR: For the user case ... pass an options dictionary ... (this is complicated)
06:34:05 <masonf> ack jake
06:34:14 <mmocny> JakeA: we spoke about this on github a while ago
06:34:22 <mmocny> ... example with html and templates
06:34:31 <mmocny> ... If I have one of these for each of my pages
06:34:34 <jridgewell> q+
06:34:50 <mmocny> ... but one of the pages has a custom sidebar-- does every single page now need this sidebar
06:35:11 <mmocny> NoamR: we discussed about iframes and reloading each time..
06:35:29 <mmocny> JakeA: Yes, several problems, but I'm referring to all the includes needing to have Everything that anything has
06:35:49 <mmocny> JakeA: But also the react-esque question about replacing elements vs persistance
06:36:07 <mmocny> NoamR: yes, but its no worse that separate html files
06:36:29 <mmocny> ... for the second we dont solve yet, but idea is "content-revision" attribution, super crude virtual dom... dont patch if you think it is the same
06:36:34 <masonf> ack frehner
06:36:58 <mmocny> frehner: for out of order streaming, would this only work for initial stream / initial load?
06:37:12 <mmocny> NoamR: you can combine the two together
06:37:50 <mmocny> frehner: what about SPA with 100's of routes and long lived, is there concern about having many of these stay forever
06:37:50 <mmocny> NoamR: they dont stay
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06:37:58 <mmocny> Philip: we don't attach the template, just the final dom
06:38:02 <noamh> q+
06:38:07 <mmocny> JakeA: declarative shadow dom is the same
06:38:27 <mmocny> NoamR: we were thinking about template conceptually as a scripting directive, but its a declarative update
06:38:45 <mmocny> ... regular template is a deferred update, and declarative shadow dom is an update to the root-- but this is...
06:38:47 <masonf> ack jridgewell
06:39:06 <mmocny> jridgewell: why is this incompat with trusted types?  couldn't we have create html chunk?
06:39:32 <mmocny> ... trusted types give you sanitization but also ... but if we had createHTMLChunk it could work for this specifically
06:39:42 <mmocny> Philip: this was one of our first attempts for this
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06:39:55 <mmocny> ...trusted html chunk was the first prototype
06:39:56 <westbrook> q?
06:40:05 <westbrook> q+
06:40:38 <mmocny> ... (tldr you would still have to implement your own parser and cannot use browser parser)
06:40:59 <mmocny> Simon: yes, but you could still stream into inert and then parse that
06:41:21 <mmocny> ... but the browser streams first, then other script can look at that stream after
06:41:49 <mmocny> Philip: ...it would only work if you have a bunch of sibling nodes, not a giant root
06:41:59 <mmocny> Simon... because you need to sanitize the tree not the stream?
06:42:15 <mmocny> NoamR: main solution is to have trusted options things, but we dont want to ship that before working on the sanitizer
06:42:15 <jcayzac> s/stream/string/
06:42:43 <mmocny> ... once that ships you won't need to use the sanitizer and could use trusted types
06:42:43 <masonf> ack noam
06:43:09 <mmocny> noam: (NoamH): could this be used to implement a infinite virtual scroller? But such a component would also require to remove elements as well as append
06:43:23 <mmocny> Philip: 4 modes append, prepend, replace, ?
06:43:45 <mmocny> NoamR: we will likely need more content methods in the future, this was just a start
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06:43:56 <mmocny> ... nothing prevents us from having more, this is a start
06:44:07 <mmocny> Simon: you want to append on one end and remove on another
06:44:13 <masonf> ack westbrook
06:44:35 <mmocny> westbrook: contentname right not only addresses a single element
06:44:54 <mmocny> ... but if you could do multiple, could it be a way to do declarative shadow dom replacement?
06:45:06 <mmocny> NoamR: like a comma/space separated list
06:45:18 <masonf> zakim, make minutes
06:45:18 <Zakim> I don't understand 'make minutes', masonf
06:45:24 <masonf> rrsagent, make minutes
06:45:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/12-decl-partial-updates-minutes.html masonf
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13:53:02 <tidoust> RRSAgent, bye
13:53:02 <RRSAgent> I see no action items