06:38:40 RRSAgent has joined #amount-element 06:38:44 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/11/12-amount-element-irc 06:38:45 RRSAgent, do not leave 06:38:45 RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight 06:38:46 RRSAgent, make logs public 06:38:47 Meeting: Introducing an HTML `` Element 06:38:47 Chair: eemeli, Tantek Çelik 06:38:47 Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/tpac2025-breakouts/issues/57 06:38:47 Zakim has joined #amount-element 06:38:48 Zakim, clear agenda 06:38:49 agenda cleared 06:38:49 Zakim, agenda+ Pick a scribe 06:38:49 agendum 1 added 06:38:49 Zakim, agenda+ Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy 06:38:50 agendum 2 added 06:38:50 Zakim, agenda+ Goal of this session 06:38:50 agendum 3 added 06:38:51 Zakim, agenda+ Discussion 06:38:53 agendum 4 added 06:38:53 Zakim, agenda+ Next steps / where discussion continues 06:38:53 agendum 5 added 06:38:53 Zakim, agenda+ Adjourn / Use IRC command: Zakim, end meeting 06:38:54 agendum 6 added 06:38:54 breakout-bot has left #amount-element 07:02:19 tantek-projector has joined #amount-element 07:09:30 tantek has joined #amount-element 07:09:44 RRSAgent, make logs public 07:12:04 hsivonen1 has joined #amount-element 07:13:12 sidvishnoi has joined #amount-element 07:13:12 hsivonen has joined #amount-element 07:14:38 stephen_mcgruer has joined #amount-element 07:14:42 present+ 07:15:31 mehm8128 has joined #amount-element 07:16:41 present+ 07:17:06 denis has joined #amount-element 07:17:19 present+ 07:17:57 ntim has joined #amount-element 07:18:02 jyasskin has joined #amount-element 07:18:05 LenB has joined #amount-element 07:18:07 present+ 07:18:15 present+ 07:18:17 saji has joined #amount-element 07:18:17 scribe+ 07:18:19 present+ 07:18:22 vasilii__ has joined #amount-element 07:18:23 present+ 07:18:27 berlysia has joined #amount-element 07:18:29 present+ Vasilii Trofimchuk 07:19:03 annaya has joined #amount-element 07:19:07 eemeli: I'm eemeli, I work on l10n, online there is tantek. t is the author of the explainer 07:19:18 present+ 07:19:46 aki has joined #amount-element 07:19:53 bkardell has joined #amount-element 07:19:54 eemeli: we think it might be appropriate to add a new HTML element to enable new behavior for values followed by unit indicators 07:20:17 cwilso has joined #amount-element 07:20:25 present+ 07:20:44 present+ 07:20:48 eemeli: The sort of behavior that we're imagining is similar to iOS where an amount can be clicked/tapped and you end get an app provided popup of conversions for multiple purposes 07:21:06 nicolo-ribaudo has joined #amount-element 07:21:45 ... The HTML element would not be exactly the same as iOS because it's not automatic, you'd need to use HTML to specify whether it's an amount 07:22:15 ... There is precedent, e.g. in JS with Intl.NumberFormat 07:22:21 we're trying to do the same in HTML 07:23:08 An amount element can have a value and the unit in the attribute. With the presentation specified by the developer 07:23:14 like the element 07:23:37 Or we could have the platform do the formatting, e.g. in the second element, with no text content 07:24:04 m-alkalbani has joined #amount-element 07:24:41 Or we could go further with the 3rd example, based on the locale, the usage attribute would specify what context you're trying to express the amount in (e.g. person for a mass) 07:24:44 3.26lb 07:24:56 we could imagine going further with currency formatting 07:25:07 We can do that with Intl.NumberFormat 07:25:25 ( We could do a lot, but at a minimum we could imagine doing something as simple as , and have the browser render more info in a popup 07:26:14 present+ 07:27:04 q+ to ask about time 07:27:42 tantek: The first example, would be the v0. If the developer would want something to display if it's not supported with the fallback. You could imagine an affordance to indicate that there is an amount, with a popup similar to iOS 07:27:52 ... other example is the firefox address bar 07:28:22 ... you can type 1.48 kg in lb in the FF address bar and get the conversion 07:28:46 There's already a bunch of built-in conversion kits in the browser, and it would be nice if web devs could take advantage. 07:29:29 It's like progressive enhancement, on browsers that support it, you can get different conversions, or just see the text if not supported 07:29:42 q+ to indicate interest in semantics of amount, for payments 07:30:00 There's no privacy leak because the popup is handled all client side 07:30:15 since we have the capability in the JS engine, we should do it 07:30:16 ack nicolo-ribaudo 07:30:16 nicolo-ribaudo, you wanted to ask about time 07:30:17 q? 07:30:19 benoit_ has joined #amount-element 07:30:23 johanneswilm has joined #amount-element 07:30:30 q+ 07:30:51 nicolo-ribaudo: Is there a plan to introduce that kind of conversion for the element? 07:30:54 +1 07:31:09 tantek: yeah why not 07:31:10 q+ 07:31:17 ack stephen_mcgruer 07:31:17 stephen_mcgruer, you wanted to indicate interest in semantics of amount, for payments 07:32:19 stephen_mcgruer: I'm very interested in the currency use case, for the semantic use case. I can see how the browser could provide useful tools for that. Just wanted to say +1 07:32:36 Prior art for time: https://shoelace.style/components/relative-time and https://shoelace.style/components/format-date. I filed https://github.com/openui/open-ui/issues/1023 to suggest this. 07:33:12 tantek: if you purely offer a semantic element without any UI, often browsers won't do anything. So this is why we want to provide some amount of UX guidance for the browser. 07:33:53 q+ 07:33:56 q? 07:34:17 ....we're curious what to do for currency? one use case is currency conversion, but that's probably a different scope. How should the conversion be? how recent should it be? Not like converting grams to pounds 07:35:21 eemeli: context is critical, e.g. if you are paying for something you want it to be accurate, but in some other contexts it's not as important. 07:35:52 q? 07:35:57 tantek: it's possible we want a different UX for currencies. and we don't want to de-incentivize people from using the element if it's subpar 07:36:21 eemeli: We would probably want to give back control to the web developer for this kind of thing 07:36:37 ack johanneswilm 07:37:44 johanneswilm: this is great, but sometimes the locale of the computer is not necessarily the locale of the user. like denmark where a lot of people use english. This is a problem for date pickers. Danish gov websites use custom pickers for that reason. 07:37:56 johanneswilm: it would be nice to be able to override the locale to avoid this situation 07:38:36 eemeli: this is a problem that should be addressed, and an override is probably the good way to do that. 07:38:55 johanneswilm: i'm not sure what it means to use kg in the US 07:39:58 eemeli: you can provide the value in the unit you specify and use, and the browser handles the display in the browser 07:40:20 tantek: some of this info can be from the server 07:40:20 q+ 07:40:46 tantek: The Danish in english problem is going to be answered by another breakout 07:40:58 tantek: the market has shown that this is useful regardless of the locale 07:41:09 q+ to ask why the web developer would use this 07:41:17 the popup that is shown in the example does not make assumptions about the locale. 07:41:34 Apple has done a good job here of providing a good UX that doesn't get in the way. 07:41:46 we'd probably want to start UX guidance from there. 07:41:56 ack bkardell 07:42:15 q- 07:43:43 q+ 07:43:46 bkardell: if you read the explainer, there's a long history of this being asked for. It was for in what we want, Open UI, discord. There's a long history. There are details are debatable for sure, like having the browser show stuff. Today if you have your phone and select addresses/phones, there are regexes that do some smart detection that are common. If we could have some kind of hint, we could enhance what we've seen useful in the 07:43:46 past 07:43:55 ack benoit 07:44:17 q+ 07:44:31 q+ 07:44:35 benoit: What does the usage attribute do? is it for stones/pounds/etc. for people? 07:45:43 yes 07:46:09 benoit: For currencies, everything you see is from rates that they get from banks, each provider has their own rates. If you are developing an e-commerce website, you are likely need to do get data from a feed that is from the relevant market. What you see in most places is the middle rate. 07:46:43 benoit: If you auto convert on the site, you could see issues where people are charged differently from what shown 07:47:00 benoit: i love the idea otherwise 07:47:23 vasilii_2 has joined #amount-element 07:47:47 benoit: Is there a provision for sub-unit values? e.g. something priced in cents, but bought in bulk 07:47:56 vq? 07:48:12 eemeli: we have not considered it yet. 07:48:45 (@hsivonen - The Danish railway company DSB is also using a differently configured version of that custom date picker on the Danish version of their site. They just don't rely on the browser's locale. ) 07:48:45 tantek: The currency part of this is the most fuzzy, hence the question mark. We brought it up as an obvious extension, but with a lot of challenges 07:49:47 q? 07:49:53 benoit: sometimes merchants want currencies to end in a sharp digit, but conversion can be a problem 07:51:06 cwilso: could we represent this in a simpler format ? 07:51:20 q? 07:51:52 q+ to ask about parsing being locale-dependent 07:52:11 tantek: we could some internal parsing to handle that to avoid using attributes. e.g. putting to avoid having to put attributes 07:52:15 ack cwilso 07:52:26 would this also be useful for composite units? m/s, km/h, L/s, etc. ? 07:52:33 cwilso: you could see issues of attributes not being coherently updated 07:53:17 eemeli: we've been discussing in TC39 an amount object, stage 1 proposal, very early stage. We're considering that problem. We want to solve it. 07:54:06 eemeli: we might end up with a stringified micro-syntax. But we want to make sure HTML and JS is consistent. 07:54:29 cwilso: it's more about consider that in addition to the fallback 07:54:56 could you 'polyfill' the display with some css attribute and generated content rules? 07:54:58 benoit: Js Intl does support some composite units, and I expect this would match that. https://tc39.es/ecma402/#sec-iswellformedunitidentifier describes it. 07:56:20 q- 07:56:28 eemeli: our initial version of unit identifier is dashed identifier. We want the microsyntax to be different from human input, because it's very variable (like , vs . for decimal separator) 07:56:30 q? 07:56:43 ack v 07:56:58 recognizing a currency code gets harder if you consider including non ISO 4217 values - like cryptocurrencies 07:57:48 q? 07:57:48 vasilii__: i'm from payments, also here to discuss currencies. I agree the currency problem is very hard. I still think semantic support should be part of v0. because of a11y, agentic use cases, also drawing the comparison with JS Intl API. 07:57:58 ack jyasskin 07:59:52 q+ 08:00:07 jyasskin: there is a lot of prior art for the time version of this. We should figure out how to make time work with the popup, but not block amount. 08:00:46 For amount, have you thought of not matching the locale specified? It's useful for have units converted for an european user reading an US site 08:01:08 tomayac has joined #amount-element 08:01:13 tantek: CSS seems right to handle presentational transforms like this. 08:01:20 q+ to ask about "no text generation" 08:01:27 RRSAgent, draft minutes 08:01:28 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/12-amount-element-minutes.html tomayac 08:01:57 tantek: There are a lot of JS libraries to do formatting, missed oppotunities in CSS 08:02:20 eemeli: fingerprinting problem to have the content change in place. 08:02:41 jyasskin: we are sending the accept language header anyway, can we just use that? 08:03:05 q? 08:03:11 jyasskin: github developed to have their markup match 08:03:16 CSS makes sense 08:04:20 stephen_mcgruer: i don't know why web developers would adopt this. Sometimes there are cases (e.g. shoe resellers) where they don't want it. Do you have web developer evidence? 08:05:32 eemeli: Having the server sending out responses and the client format this. 08:05:44 stephen_mcgruer: why would the developer do this? 08:06:01 tantek: recipes seems like a good one. 08:06:20 stephen_mcgruer: baking is kind of like currencies 08:06:44 q+ 08:06:54 🎉 08:06:56 MathML 08:07:07 tantek: There is a lot of history of web developers asking for this. An another use case is scientific papers, or being able to markup amounts 08:07:16 ack stephen_mcgruer 08:07:41 stephen_mcgruer: For your recipe site (if you can stand US measures), you'll like https://unicode-org.atlassian.net/browse/CLDR-17570, to format "1/4 cup", etc. 08:08:52 benoit: As a counterpoint to the recipe use cases where all units would change. I want to display a current rate conversion for a handful of currencies. I'm going to do a request and display them one by one, and use each element with different currencies. But no auto conversion. Is that something I can do? 08:09:05 tantek: there is no auto-conversion in v0. 08:09:07 +1 08:09:13 +1 08:09:32 but you could still have extensions or apps that do that other stuff 08:09:39 Maybe it could use XSLT 3 08:09:41 q? 08:09:42 :) 08:09:44 ack benoit 08:09:46 tantek: i also prefer not have currencies in v0. Our main use case is kg/lb. I would prefer expanding later as we see people use them. 08:11:39 benoit: If my locale is en-CA, if I want all the values to display properly. Do I need to specify the locale for each currency? Does lang inherit? or does it infer from the unit? 08:11:51 tantek: lang inheritance is a long rabbit hole 08:12:04 q? 08:12:48 q+ foolip 08:13:04 ack nicolo-ribaudo 08:13:04 nicolo-ribaudo, you wanted to ask about "no text generation" 08:13:08 eemeli: the expectation is not necessarily what the current currency code is, it sometimes the user's locale. e.g. for decimal separators. Impossible to predict, and hard for euro where there is no 1:1 mapping 08:14:12 vasilii has joined #amount-element 08:14:32 nicolo-ribaudo: about the comment that there is no text-generation. 1. do I just see ntohing for unsupported browser? 2. Does it not do auto-formatting in the user's locale? 08:15:10 +1 to the fact that its hard to keep all the variants here in my head! 08:15:15 tantek: 1. progressive enhancement. 2. we want to be predictable for web developers 08:15:17 q? 08:16:36 1kg, 1 kilogram, 2 kilograms, 1 kilo, 2 kilo, ... 08:16:36 eemeli: what about 1.48[kilogram] 08:17:02 1 kilometre, 2 kilometres, 1 km, 2 km, 4 klicks, ... 08:17:29 tantek: we should not make up new syntax. it should be syntax that people are already familiar with. don't be more clever than needed, just look at prior research 08:17:57 stephen_mcgruer: humans are not communicating in a standardized way 08:18:06 q+ 08:18:10 tantek: There are some scientific standards out there 08:18:13 zakim, close the queue 08:18:13 ok, stephen_mcgruer, the speaker queue is closed 08:18:14 q- 08:18:23 q- 08:19:19 q- foolip 08:19:53 RRSAgent, make minutes 08:19:55 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/12-amount-element-minutes.html tantek 08:29:00 benoit has joined #amount-element 08:30:08 vasilii has joined #amount-element 08:57:17 vasilii has joined #amount-element 09:04:53 vasilii_ has joined #amount-element 09:12:15 denis has left #amount-element 09:27:01 vasilii has joined #amount-element 09:32:44 vasilii has joined #amount-element 13:02:20 benoit has joined #amount-element 13:50:36 tidoust has joined #amount-element 13:50:40 RRSAgent, bye 13:50:40 I see no action items