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04:40:22 <breakout-bot> Meeting: AI Agents and The Web
04:40:22 <breakout-bot> Chair: Ruoxi Ran, Dominique Hazaël-Massieux
04:40:22 <breakout-bot> Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/tpac2025-breakouts/issues/68
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04:40:23 <breakout-bot> Zakim, clear agenda
04:40:23 <Zakim> agenda cleared
04:40:23 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Pick a scribe
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04:40:24 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy
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04:40:24 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Goal of this session
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04:40:25 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Discussion
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04:40:26 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Next steps / where discussion continues
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04:40:27 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Adjourn / Use IRC command: Zakim, end meeting
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05:14:52 <breakout-bot> Meeting: AI Agents and The Web
05:14:52 <breakout-bot> Chair: Ruoxi Ran, Dominique Hazaël-Massieux
05:14:52 <breakout-bot> Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/tpac2025-breakouts/issues/68
05:14:52 <breakout-bot> Zakim, clear agenda
05:14:52 <Zakim> agenda cleared
05:14:52 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Pick a scribe
05:14:53 <Zakim> agendum 1 added
05:14:54 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy
05:14:54 <Zakim> agendum 2 added
05:14:54 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Goal of this session
05:14:55 <Zakim> agendum 3 added
05:14:55 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Discussion
05:14:55 <Zakim> agendum 4 added
05:14:55 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Next steps / where discussion continues
05:14:56 <Zakim> agendum 5 added
05:14:56 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Adjourn / Use IRC command: Zakim, end meeting
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05:46:20 <denis> dom: focus for this session is how to structure conversation on AI agents as they are emerging in the world of web browsers. What impact have we identified and how we should prepare for this
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05:46:31 <ivan> present+
05:46:32 <Mark_Foltz> Present+
05:46:36 <denis> ... I'm trying to understand the impact of AI on the web
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05:46:50 <anssik> Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen
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05:47:28 <denis> dom: I'll give a quick intro on AI Agents impact on the web
05:47:30 <vasilii> present+ Vasilii Trofimchuk
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05:47:44 <denis> ... Anssi will present the work of the Web ML CG/WG
05:47:54 <denis> ... and I'll invite broader discussion
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05:48:13 <denis> ... terms that emerge in the WG is browsers agents
05:48:16 <chunming> present+
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05:48:44 <denis> ... in 2024 I wrote a report of the impact AI system on the web
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05:48:56 <denis> ... I made a follow-up on github
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05:49:43 <Jem> Do we have the url for the slides?
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05:50:13 <denis> ... content will produce challenges (monetization, etc)
05:50:33 <denis> ... you probably need to know how many people are interested in your content
05:50:47 <denis> ... analytics is also another area
05:50:52 <dmaurya> present+
05:50:59 <denis> ... putting an agent in front of that can be very useful
05:51:11 <Lei_Zhao> present+
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05:51:30 <denis> ... for instance, putting an agent in front of a shopping site will simplify the whole process
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05:51:59 <denis> ... there are interesting questions on how users give delegation to the agent
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05:52:14 <denis> ... talking about transaction, the question of risks/liability can get tricky
05:52:27 <denis> ... you are creating technical business challenges
05:52:38 <denis> ... it creates an environment with new questions
05:53:12 <denis> ... the other topic my report addresses is AI agents as web AI agents
05:53:34 <denis> ... an agent is embedded/attached to the browser
05:53:41 <denis> ... this raises a huge number of questions
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05:54:12 <denis> ... what are the web user agents duties? what are the expectations?
05:54:16 <Igarashi> present+
05:54:34 <denis> ... the level of trust of end users depends on regulation, etc
05:55:07 <denis> ... understanding what adding a web user agent implies
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05:55:31 <denis> ... they are a lot of interesting questions on how we can keep the security variant in the area
05:56:05 <denis> ... people see an increase of crawlers
05:56:33 <denis> ... you wouldn't load a single page
05:56:44 <denis> ... so it's worth taking this into consideration
05:56:56 <denis> ... what are also the new interoperability needs emerging from this?
05:57:19 <denis> ... WebMCP is looking at how we can bring MCP into web pages
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05:57:38 <denis> ... NLWeb brings a more semantic approach
05:58:42 <denis> ... if you look at AI Agents today (bots), the ability to have the agents expose richer interfaces
05:58:58 <denis> ... MCP-UI uses web technologies bring content in an AI system
05:59:37 <denis> ... the final topic in the report is around the developer experience
06:00:22 <denis> ... coding agents can become the primary reason for adoption
06:00:56 <denis> ... understanding what we could do with coding agents is worth discussing
06:01:08 <denis> ... the documentation CG is having a discussion tomorrow
06:01:35 <denis> ... we welcome feedback on the report
06:01:53 <denis> ... Roy and I are looking at organizing a workshop
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06:02:25 <denis> ... we think there's a real opportunity but we need signals from the community to know if this is useful
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06:02:58 <denis> ... workshops are a good opportunity to get people involved
06:03:30 <Igarashi> +1 to physical workshop
06:03:36 <denis> Topic: Web Machine Learning CG/WG
06:04:06 <dom> my slides are at https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1If8Gi6zZRiZwQab5Dug9Vm6TSeOrEyIVb1lDiPLb2Tg/edit?slide=id.g37010987692_0_31#slide=id.g37010987692_0_31
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06:04:52 <denis> Anssi: "Sir Tim Berners Lee doesn't think AI will destroy the web"
06:05:29 <denis> ... we started in 2018 exploring a space to prototyping
06:05:45 <denis> ... people started asking when they can use
06:05:55 <denis> ... 7 years later, I can say that time is soon
06:06:06 <denis> ... on average it takes about 6years from ideas to shipping
06:06:23 <denis> ... in 2020, we had a W3C workshop that attracted 400 participants
06:06:34 <denis> ... we had a good discussion
06:06:41 <denis> ... in 2021, we created the Web ML WG
06:07:07 <denis> ... the idea was to focus on well scope problems and actuallly ship things
06:07:26 <denis> ... since then, we've been pushing the work on the standard track
06:07:45 <denis> ... we have been exploring other features (built-in API or task based API)
06:08:35 <denis> ... just yesterday, we had a meeting and reach consensus @1
06:08:52 <denis> ... huge thanks to the participants
06:09:25 <denis> ... we also care about the risks and we pushed the ethical @2
06:09:43 <denis> s/@2/principles document/
06:10:18 <denis> [Anssi comparing WebNN PAI and Build-in AI APIs]
06:10:49 <denis> Anssi: WebNN API is low lever while Built-in AI API is higher level
06:11:27 <denis> ... Built-in API are simpler but there's a tradeoff
06:11:53 <denis> [Agentic browsers vs WebMCP]
06:12:17 <denis> ... with WebMCP, you decide what is expose. The important thing here is who has the agent
06:13:19 <denis> ... the agentic browsers take a screenshot and send it to the cloud. You can imagine it burns a lot of tokens (CO2)
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06:13:39 <denis> ... with the WebMCP, it's a programatic API so it's lightweight and produces less CO2
06:13:48 <denis> ... Web ML is really for everyone
06:14:25 <denis> ... I'd like to thank all the participants and the ecosystem leaders
06:15:03 <denis> q?
06:15:13 <kadirtopal> q+
06:15:50 <denis> David: we use the open AI and we found the more calls we make, and the more risks we have with lagging
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06:17:16 <denis> Anssi: we have 2 open source projects for WebMCP
06:17:50 <denis> @@: we have an agent that can connect to your model
06:17:56 <denis> @3
06:18:54 <denis> Anssi: the agentic API is the most developed but is currently in incubation
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06:19:05 <dom> ack kadirtopal
06:19:37 <denis> @@: you talked about UI. Can you talk about standardization ?
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06:19:56 <anssik> q?
06:19:59 <denis> Dom: the discussion on MCP-UI is done in a fairly collaborative manner
06:20:01 <anssik> q+
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06:20:45 <denis> ... MCP-UI offers the options to generate an iframe where the content provider can bring their own UI. The agent can detect when the user clicks.
06:20:47 <anssik> -> https://github.com/webmachinelearning/proposals/issues/14
06:20:58 <denis> ... it's about integrating interactive UI component
06:21:33 <denis> ... either the work is done by the content provider or the agent based on the informations
06:21:43 <Sun> can you share the slide link if possible anssik?
06:21:43 <denis> ... I don't believe there's any standardization work yet
06:22:13 <denis> ... for the iframe piece, MCP-UI identified some standardization needs
06:22:16 <dom> q?
06:22:45 <dom> ack anssik
06:22:50 <denis> Roy: for generative UI, the chinese IG will discuss this as 2 chinese companies have interests in the topic
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06:23:33 <denis> Anssi: about MCP UI, there's a WG. I'd love to figure out how to collaborate with the MCP community
06:23:54 <denis> ... we have members of the Web ML WG that are also part of the MCP community
06:24:12 <denis> Dom: anyone has thoughts about the workshop?
06:24:54 <gkok> q+
06:25:12 <denis> ack gkok
06:25:29 <denis> gkok (from netflix): we've been thinking about how we should approach these changes
06:25:42 <denis> ... it's hard for us to know what we should focus on
06:26:24 <denis> ... I'd love to have a better understanding. We are trying to understand the protocols
06:26:50 <denis> dom: the real challenge is that there's so much happening that the best we can do is to experiment
06:27:13 <denis> ... I'm struggling exactly the same way
06:27:49 <denis> @@: my company is one of the 3 partners with the Michigan University
06:28:27 <denis> ... our role in the AI space with them is to incorporate AI in the unversity environment
06:28:28 <dom> s/@@/DavidFazio/
06:28:49 <denis> ... I'm interesting to know how we can use this in our project
06:29:02 <alanbuxey> ... Helix Opportunity - https://www.helixopp.com/
06:29:31 <denis> gkok: what do you need to develop the report?
06:29:32 <Roy_Ruoxi> https://github.com/w3c/ai-web-impact/issues
06:30:09 <chrisp> +q
06:30:15 <denis> dom: I'm hoping, if the Web and AI IG gets chartered, we can get more clarity
06:30:59 <denis> chrisp: curious about the assumptions you are making with webnn?
06:31:19 <denis> dom: it's not made to run with predefined model. You will need to make your model
06:31:30 <denis> ... the built-in API comes with pre-built models
06:31:44 <denis> ... at the moment, the only assumption is that they are fit for specific tasks
06:32:19 <denis> ... there's also the prompt API that's just an interface with @4
06:33:16 <denis> Anssi: Vision models are key use models we are targetting
06:34:00 <dom> q?
06:34:05 <dom> ack chrisp
06:34:41 <denis> RRSAgent, draft minutes
06:34:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/12-ai-and-web-minutes.html denis
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08:46:54 <dom> i|Anssi: "Sir|Slideset: https://anssiko.github.io/ai-and-web-tpac-2025/
08:46:58 <dom> RRSAgent, draft minutes
08:47:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/12-ai-and-web-minutes.html dom
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13:53:23 <tidoust> RRSAgent, bye
13:53:23 <RRSAgent> I see no action items