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21:53:54 <breakout-bot> RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
21:53:54 <breakout-bot> RRSAgent, make logs public
21:53:56 <breakout-bot> Meeting: For Everyone: Towards a Sustainable Future for Independent Standards Work
21:53:56 <breakout-bot> Chair: Lea Verou, Florian Rivoal, Miriam Suzanne
21:53:56 <breakout-bot> Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/tpac2025-breakouts/issues/63
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21:53:57 <breakout-bot> Zakim, clear agenda
21:53:58 <Zakim> agenda cleared
21:53:58 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Pick a scribe
21:53:58 <Zakim> agendum 1 added
21:53:59 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy
21:54:00 <Zakim> agendum 2 added
21:54:00 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Goal of this session
21:54:00 <Zakim> agendum 3 added
21:54:00 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Discussion
21:54:02 <Zakim> agendum 4 added
21:54:02 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Next steps / where discussion continues
21:54:02 <Zakim> agendum 5 added
21:54:02 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Adjourn / Use IRC command: Zakim, end meeting
21:54:03 <Zakim> agendum 6 added
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23:27:25 <florian> present+
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23:30:16 <matatk> present+
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23:30:22 <miriam> present+
23:30:28 <rbyers> present+
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23:31:26 <janina0> Present+
23:31:38 <fscholz> present+
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23:31:58 <matatk> zakim, who's here?
23:31:58 <Zakim> Present: florian, matatk, miriam, rbyers, niklasmerz, mikbar, janina, fscholz
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23:32:01 <Zakim> On IRC I see mchampion, janina0, sarahj, niklasmerz, rbyers, mikbar, miriam, matatk, florian, fscholz, Zakim, RRSAgent
23:32:11 <Ben_Tillyer> present+
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23:33:06 <kizu> present+
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23:35:12 <florian> slides at https://webplatform.design/talks/tpac2025/
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23:47:22 <DKA> present+ Dan_Appelquist
23:47:34 <DKA> q?
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23:53:49 <matatk> q+ Janina
23:53:50 <miriam> ack fscholz
23:54:14 <ydaniv> ScribeNick: ydaniv
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23:54:37 <ydaniv> fscholz: happy to be here, being doing this for some time, it's hard
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23:54:55 <ydaniv> ... we have a membership model with big companies part of us, but also come and go
23:55:04 <ydaniv> ... still interested in this
23:55:37 <ydaniv> ... need the infra for this, and constantly have to prove yourself, with tech companies who are also W3C members
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23:56:01 <ydaniv> ... we use open collective, get some donations, some individuals, but there's not enough to go around
23:56:12 <ydaniv> ... so don't think crowd sourcing is working for us
23:56:37 <ydaniv> ... 3rd thing we're doing, try to divercify funding from govs
23:56:58 <lea> qq+ to ask fscholz a question
23:57:06 <ydaniv> ... for various projects, but to convince them is similar to pitching to companies
23:57:33 <ydaniv> ... it's a weird work to convince them all
23:58:16 <ydaniv> ... there are all the independent individuals, and Igalia, and we neeed to somehow get together
23:58:34 <ydaniv> florian: if we're independent discussing is not enough
23:59:05 <ydaniv> lea: are there benefits for our memberships?
23:59:09 <florian> q?
23:59:16 <florian> ack lea
23:59:16 <Zakim> lea, you wanted to react to fscholz to ask fscholz a question
00:00:28 <rbyers> q+
00:00:35 <ydaniv> bkardell: trying to move different things, we did an experiment in 2019 with funds
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00:00:47 <lea> qq+ to reply to bkardell
00:00:51 <DKA> q?
00:00:54 <lea> q-
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00:01:05 <florian> ack bkardell
00:01:05 <ydaniv> ... we toook different proposals in different areas and costs
00:01:19 <florian> q+
00:01:37 <ydaniv> ... bringing this up because even though this is exciting, we need to change how this works
00:01:53 <ydaniv> ... many ppl gave a lot of money, but it's still not enough to pay a single developers
00:02:40 <ydaniv> ... tricky to balance this, I think the W3C should do this, to pool money
00:02:53 <ydaniv> ... everybody is interested in CSS but not in the same things
00:03:15 <ydaniv> ... there are politics and personalities etc, it's all disconnected from reality
00:03:38 <ydaniv> ... if we pool the money we can decide together where to put that money
00:03:53 <rbyers> Supporters of Chromium-based Browsers: https://github.com/Supporters-Of-Chromium-Based-Browsers/Foundation
00:04:01 <ydaniv> ... we did partnerships before, and decide where to spend money, that worked before
00:04:16 <sorvell> +q
00:04:23 <ydaniv> ... you need something like the W3C or related to collect part of the money and make a difference
00:04:27 <phila> q+
00:04:35 <ydaniv> ... otherwise very hard to pool the money and make it possible
00:04:47 <ydaniv> lola: I think it's a great idea
00:05:15 <ydaniv> ... I've been an independent over a year now, working for Bocoup and smaller companies
00:05:32 <ydaniv> ... hearing you want money to do the things we know how to do, like documentation
00:05:55 <ydaniv> ...  but also things like a big company need to do specific thing and ...
00:06:39 <ydaniv> ... want to here more from big tech companies in the room - what does this look like internally? how does this work when you need more deves etc.?
00:06:42 <lea> q+
00:06:51 <miriam> ack lola
00:07:10 <ydaniv> rbyers: it's complicated, any company looks at ROI
00:07:32 <ydaniv> ... also like the idea of collective, it's very hard to onboard a new contractor/vendor
00:07:48 <DKA> DKA has joined #webplatform-design
00:07:57 <DKA> q?
00:07:57 <ydaniv> ... like we have some a11y or XML bugs, and then get a contractor for that is a lot of work
00:08:20 <janina0> janina0 has joined #webplatform-design
00:08:30 <ydaniv> ... how can we make this more efficient? how can we bootstrap extra work that comes along?
00:08:39 <ydaniv> ... if we have pooling might make this easier
00:09:09 <ydaniv> ... another big challenge is [missed]
00:09:33 <ydaniv> janina0: glad we're having this conversation
00:09:36 <lea> ack Janina
00:09:46 <rbyers> q-
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00:09:57 <ydaniv> ... it's not simple to communicate the value
00:10:24 <ydaniv> ... people don't see the extra work done around the project
00:11:13 <ydaniv> ... people are building business models, they have a business, and they get someone to work on one thing, and don't see the things to do around it in other pain points
00:11:38 <ydaniv> ... example: WCAG 1.0 said no JS allowed
00:11:58 <ydaniv> ... someone at IBM said this won't work, what can we do?
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00:12:24 <ydaniv> ... how do you communicate at 1998 that we need to get engaged with this?
00:12:25 <florian> q?
00:12:47 <ydaniv> ... how do we communicate the value?
00:12:53 <miriam> q+
00:12:56 <sarahj> q+
00:12:58 <ydaniv> ... in APA we need to fix some of those "no JS allowed"
00:13:00 <rbyers> q+
00:13:15 <phila> q-
00:13:43 <ydaniv> ... some of the things are not on the web yet and some of our value proposition is to get them added
00:13:48 <lea> ack florian
00:14:13 <ydaniv> florian: I'm aware that this is hard, answering to bkardell
00:14:20 <ydaniv> ... but we have been doing some of it already
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00:14:47 <ydaniv> ... by being a collective, once you have a trusted relationship the way is open for more to grow
00:14:55 <ydaniv> ... and evey bit we add is nice
00:15:06 <ydaniv> ... but don't think we need to crack that to get going
00:15:18 <ydaniv> ... but there are other things to do
00:15:21 <lea> ack sorvell
00:15:34 <ydaniv> sorvell: pushing back on some of what rbyers said
00:15:44 <ydaniv> ...  it's hard to get with the big tech company
00:16:15 <ydaniv> ... it would astonish you how much a google dev get paid, and how much it's worth to pay companies like Igalia
00:16:45 <ydaniv> ... a problem for some devs, like in CSS I feel there's not enough media coverage on this
00:17:05 <lola> q+
00:17:11 <ydaniv> ... I think more could be done, and we need to fund more media coverage
00:17:24 <ydaniv> ... there's bunch of dynamism in the browser space
00:17:28 <lola> qq+
00:17:35 <ydaniv> ... feel there's more potential for it
00:18:23 <lola> q-
00:18:23 <ydaniv> lola: totally agree with you, I interviewed some people about advocacy for the web and looking for more people
00:18:27 <lola> q-
00:18:39 <ydaniv> lea: when we talked about crowdfunding it doesn't have to be devs
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00:19:20 <ydaniv> ... could be that we found problems and companies come to us, or that they don't have another money and the get together, not only getting many devs
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00:19:36 <ydaniv> ... I think that "all or nothing" crowd funding works better
00:19:41 <DKA> q?
00:19:54 <ydaniv> ... on web platform design you can't work impl. but you can guarantee progress
00:20:05 <bkardell> q++ to reply quickly to all or nothing
00:20:18 <ydaniv> ... you can say "fund us and it will get you somewhre" or " this project..." etc.
00:20:40 <ydaniv> ... for most smaller companies it might be they need more docs, sometimes docs are in the way of getthing to things
00:20:45 <florian> qq+ bkardell
00:20:55 <ydaniv> ...  could be better to have the docs as the selling point
00:21:15 <florian> ack lea
00:21:27 <ydaniv> ... also to answer bkardell, to work with a big SDO [missed]
00:21:28 <tantek> +1000 Lea. something like this would work better when not scoped to one specific SDO.
00:21:55 <ydaniv> bkardell: you only wanna put money if you see the benefit
00:22:20 <ydaniv> ... in some example in the past it worked because we got 3 big donations, which was enough for some of it
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00:22:44 <florian> q?
00:22:46 <ydaniv> ... if the promise is we pool our money and gets you a vote it's a way to accomplish something without being specific
00:22:49 <florian> ack bkardell
00:22:49 <Zakim> bkardell, you wanted to react to sorvell
00:22:54 <ydaniv> ... does it make sense?
00:22:54 <ydaniv> lea: it does
00:23:08 <ydaniv> miriam: thanking everyone for this
00:23:14 <Ben_Tillyer> q+
00:23:48 <ydaniv> ... I agree that funding is difficult, if we go agency model is one way, by having some big names, but how do we make it sustainable?
00:24:04 <ydaniv> ... if some of the big names stay or leave? how do we continue to support the others?
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00:24:30 <ydaniv> sarahj: we've been thinking a lot about sustainability fo this work
00:24:41 <ydaniv> ... getting more people interested and involved
00:24:54 <florian> q?
00:25:01 <ydaniv> ... wanna here about how goverments can do more and help in this
00:25:03 <miriam> ack miriam
00:25:07 <florian> ack miriam
00:25:07 <miriam> ack sarahj
00:25:19 <florian> ack +
00:25:19 <Zakim> +, you wanted to reply quickly to all or nothing
00:25:25 <ydaniv> rbyers: even at google it may take a long time to convince people to spend that money
00:25:48 <rbyers> https://github.com/Supporters-Of-Chromium-Based-Browsers/Bug-Bounty-Program
00:26:02 <ydaniv> ... if you have a way to make together propositions on how funding can be spent and what we'll get out of it
00:26:09 <tantek> +1 rbyers need to think about efficiency of this work. IMO that ties into (in)efficiency problems at various SDOs, yes in particular W3C.
00:26:14 <florian> ack rbyers
00:26:25 <rbyers> ack +
00:26:28 <ydaniv> ... could help lower the barrier for starting work
00:26:52 <DKA> q?
00:27:13 <ydaniv> benT: wondering if you could publish real issues that are worked on, time that it needs, amounts, etc.
00:27:15 <lea> q+
00:27:31 <lea> ack Ben_Tillyer
00:27:35 <ydaniv> ... something that we can pass to stakeholders
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00:28:16 <ydaniv> ... [missed]
00:28:20 <florian> q?
00:28:34 <DKA> +1 to transparency - FYI, Open Web Docs publishes an annual impact / transparency report: https://openwebdocs.org/content/reports/2024/
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00:29:59 <ydaniv2> lea: one of things mentioned was about timelines and showing that things are within reach
00:30:06 <DKA> q?
00:30:08 <matatk> scribe+ ydaniv2
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00:30:40 <ydaniv2> ... that is something we were considering, starting a website about portfolio of work, and exiting projects, exposing timelines and things we've done
00:30:49 <ydaniv2> florian: I think we're at about time
00:30:57 <ydaniv2> ... let's keep talking
00:31:05 <tantek> thanks florian and lea!
00:31:07 <ydaniv2> ... we have a lot of interest here
00:31:12 <ydaniv2> ... let's be in touch
00:31:21 <Ben_Tillyer> The first point was: 1) case studies demonstrating impact on time a modest amount of funding has for this work useful for funders
00:31:34 <tantek> RRSAgent, make logs public
00:31:40 <tantek> RRSAgent, make minutes
00:31:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-webplatform-design-minutes.html tantek
00:31:57 <lea> Let's stay in touch: https://webplatform.design  (there's a Discussions section in the org)
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13:52:01 <tidoust> RRSAgent, bye
13:52:01 <RRSAgent> I see no action items