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21:52:25 <breakout-bot> Meeting: Customizable select and combobox
21:52:25 <breakout-bot> Chair: Joey Arhar
21:52:25 <breakout-bot> Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/tpac2025-breakouts/issues/10
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21:52:26 <breakout-bot> Zakim, clear agenda
21:52:26 <Zakim> agenda cleared
21:52:27 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Pick a scribe
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21:52:29 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Goal of this session
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21:52:30 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Discussion
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21:52:30 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Next steps / where discussion continues
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21:52:31 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Adjourn / Use IRC command: Zakim, end meeting
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23:31:43 <masonf> Zakim, start meeting
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23:31:45 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), masonf
23:31:51 <masonf> meeting: customizable <select> breakout
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23:32:15 <jarhar> agenda doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MvNPO8E7TZtTK83WkLLyIY9k_m5T4-iCzfvXKzpEXhw/edit?usp=sharing
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23:32:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-openui-minutes.html masonf
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23:32:48 <kbabbitt> present+
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23:33:20 <emilio> present+
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23:33:37 <emilio> scribe+
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23:34:30 <emilio> jarhar: [introductions and link to https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MvNPO8E7TZtTK83WkLLyIY9k_m5T4-iCzfvXKzpEXhw/edit]
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23:35:05 <emilio> ... combobox is what we shipped, working now on listbox
23:35:16 <johanneswilm> johanneswilm has joined #openui
23:35:18 <emilio> ... can go through the basics if people want
23:35:22 <emilio> [silence]
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23:35:42 <emilio> topic: listboxes
23:35:46 <emilio> github-bot: take up https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/11477
23:35:46 <github-bot> Topic: Base appearance for list box select elements
23:35:46 <github-bot> OK, I'll post this discussion to https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/11477.
23:36:04 <emilio> jarhar: right now appearance: base-select doesn't work with the listbox select
23:36:41 <emilio> ... working on that
23:36:51 <emilio> ... another issue is a filterable combobox
23:36:59 <emilio> ... e.g. a dropdown with suggestions
23:37:07 <emilio> ... like in github
23:37:13 <emilio> ... pretty common pattern
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23:37:21 <JakeA> q+
23:37:34 <emilio> ... another big one was a select with a popup that's not an editable combobox
23:37:49 <emilio> ... so search through options like github's "labels"
23:38:03 <emilio> ... the in-page bit is just a button, but then there's a filter
23:38:19 <emilio> ... this is kinda similar to a combobox
23:38:31 <emilio> ... but different because you're forced to choose from a list of N values
23:38:50 <emilio> ... so working on an explainer with some overlap for these two use cases
23:39:08 <emilio> ... regarding autocomplete, looks like <input type=text> with datalist
23:39:29 <emilio> ... we could get a `<datalist>` with appearance: base
23:39:47 <JakeA> q-
23:39:56 <emilio> ... also associating an `<input>` with a filterable select
23:40:10 <emilio> ... first we started trying to put an `<input>` inside `<select>`
23:40:20 <emilio> ... that needs more breaking parser changes
23:40:31 <emilio> ... also accessibility issues
23:40:49 <emilio> ... the input would need to be a direct child of the `<select>`
23:41:07 <emilio> ... so I think it'd be better if we allowed an `input` to be allowed with a `listbox` select
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23:41:21 <emilio> ... authors can put that on a popup if needed
23:41:39 <emilio> ... [See Associating an input element with a select element in explainer]
23:41:46 <JakeA> q+
23:41:52 <emilio> ... [in https://open-ui.org/components/combobox.explainer/]
23:42:18 <emilio> ... to make the github thing with the input and the select, you can have a popup with a dialog
23:42:36 <emilio> JakeA: the size attribute I find weird
23:42:41 <emilio> ... we have height on CSS
23:42:43 <emilio> ... why?
23:42:51 <emilio> jarhar: agreed, mostly a legacy thing
23:43:01 <emilio> ... we could add another attribute
23:43:05 <emilio> ... I proposed that a while ago
23:43:11 <emilio> ... we should learn more about why size doesn't work
23:43:16 <emilio> ... so kept going with size
23:43:26 <emilio> ... we could find another way to opt into listbox rendering
23:43:40 <emilio> ... there's another issue about how the height should be calculated
23:43:50 <sarah> q+
23:43:50 <jarhar> q?
23:43:59 <emilio> JakeA: yeah I guess we could also add size=any or so
23:44:00 <masonf> ack jake
23:44:02 <masonf> ack sarah
23:44:02 <emilio> jarhar: yeah that could work
23:44:14 <emilio> sarah: I really like this approach rather than `<input>`-in-select
23:44:28 <emilio> ... but `<button>` with dialog, `<button>` doesn't support values
23:44:36 <emilio> ... I think there's another need for  a button that has a value
23:44:43 <emilio> ... I don't think that's currently possible
23:44:50 <emilio> ... color / date pickers have picker and value
23:44:56 <emilio> JakeA: buttons have a value
23:45:32 <emilio> emilio: sarah, you mean in the form submission sense?
23:45:37 <emilio> sarah: no, in the a11y sense
23:45:43 <sarah> ack me
23:45:51 <emilio> jarhar: I think figuring out how in this example you map the button as a combobox
23:46:11 <emilio> ... maybe since it has a select inside? but maybe another way to mark the button itself?
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23:46:32 <emilio> sarah: I think it could have a button (not combobox) role but have it a selected value
23:46:42 <emilio> ... windows is the only platform where they do combobox role for this
23:46:49 <emilio> ... I think it's more user understandable
23:47:10 <emilio> jarhar: another idea is that dialog has a formulated semantics for submitting things
23:47:20 <jarhar> q?
23:47:20 <emilio> ...  so whatever dialog submits goes into the button or something
23:47:25 <emilio> q+
23:47:37 <masonf> emilio: I agree that it's better than having it inside select
23:47:52 <masonf> emilio: when you want to use it in a form, this forces you to have a  hidden input where the value goes, right?
23:47:58 <emilio> ack emilio
23:48:23 <sarah> form dialog?
23:48:29 <emilio> jarhar: so the <input> shouldn't submit a value since it's only filtering the select
23:48:49 <masonf> emilio: the dialog would be inside the form, it'll be submitted (the select) and the button you don't do anything. Maybe it just works.
23:48:54 <keithamus> q+
23:49:05 <emilio> keithamus: I don't think there's any issue
23:49:14 <emilio> ... even with the input being submitted, without a name it won't submit
23:49:23 <johanneswilm> q+
23:49:27 <frehner> q+
23:49:29 <keithamus> ack keithamus
23:49:36 <jarhar> q?
23:49:37 <emilio> ... even if it did it'd be trivial to discard
23:49:50 <masonf> ack johannes
23:49:52 <emilio> johanneswilm: In the initial example (the github tag filter)
23:49:56 <frehner> q-
23:49:57 <emilio> ... that had a lot more structure
23:50:01 <emilio> ... here the options are just one word
23:50:11 <emilio> ... could you implement that with this new structure?
23:50:24 <emilio> ... or do you need to resort to JS for more complex options?
23:50:33 <emilio> jarhar: I don't think you'd need to resort to JS
23:50:47 <emilio> ... are you thinking about random elements in the <select>?
23:50:56 <emilio> johanneswilm: yeah all the short description and color codes and so on
23:51:19 <keithamus> q+
23:51:36 <emilio> jarhar: if you're building that the <option> would have a `value` attribute that would be populated into the `<input>` but we have other APIs planned so you can implement your own filter
23:51:45 <emilio> keithamus: we should be careful about using `value`
23:51:59 <emilio> ... the value might be the id of the database record or something
23:52:08 <emilio> ... the text content should probably be preferred
23:52:14 <emilio> ... or a new attribute
23:52:24 <emilio> ... even with supplementary descriptions
23:52:31 <emilio> ... it might not be bad to include those
23:52:38 <keithamus> ack keithamus
23:52:42 <emilio> jarhar: there's a tricky situation with how datalist works already
23:52:54 <emilio> ... when you choose an option the value attribute is what gets put into the input field
23:52:54 <sarah> an issue for providing the filterable text of options already exists for selects: https://github.com/openui/open-ui/issues/1118
23:53:21 <emilio> ... there's also the `label` attribute that has other behavior
23:53:25 <emilio> ... that we'd have to clean up in some way
23:53:39 <jarhar> q?
23:54:12 <emilio> jarhar: in order to implement filtering
23:54:18 <emilio> ... if you have an editable combobox
23:54:41 <emilio> ... when you type letters they go into the textfield and arrows focus the <option>
23:54:56 <masonf> :focused-but-not-really-focused
23:54:58 <emilio> ... but typing still goes into the `<input>`
23:55:11 <emilio> ... so I think this could be model with a new pseudo-class
23:55:27 <emilio> ... I think it'd be a good way to model
23:55:31 <emilio> ... `:focused-option`
23:55:32 <emilio> Q+
23:55:52 <masonf> emilio: its not really focused, it's more like active or selected
23:56:06 <masonf> emilio: tab navigation will move focus for real, right?
23:56:25 <masonf> emilio: you're typing, then you press Tab, that closes things right?
23:56:46 <masonf> jarhar: as I use the arrow keys, it populates the text field. Then pressing tab focuses the thing after.
23:56:59 <masonf> emilio: focus remains on the text box. So let's not call the pseudo class "focused" something.
23:57:11 <sarah> q+
23:57:13 <kbabbitt> +1 to calling the new pseudo something other than "focused"
23:57:23 <masonf> JakeA: is it actually populating the text field live?
23:58:18 <masonf> emilio: don't we have a :selected pseudo for selected options?
23:58:54 <emilio> keithamus: yeah in this one arrows are committing the option
23:59:09 <emilio> kbabbitt: yeah but :selected isn't quite that
23:59:18 <JakeA> q+
23:59:36 <emilio> keithamus: how do you distinguish multiple selected options v.s. the active one
23:59:45 <emilio> sarah: yeah I'd lean towards :active of sorts
23:59:54 <emilio> ... you might want to keep those separate
00:00:04 <kbabbitt> +1 sarah
00:00:14 <sarah> ack me
00:00:26 <masonf> emilio: the github example has multiple things that don't match the active state, since it's multi-select
00:00:31 <masonf> emilio: naming is tough
00:00:34 <frehner> q+
00:00:36 <jarhar> q?
00:00:38 <emilio> ack emilio
00:01:04 <emilio> JakeA: the urlbar in Firefox does the same as wikipedia, chrome has escape but also selects the first option
00:01:13 <emilio> ... google.com has the escape and doesn't do the first option thing
00:01:25 <emilio> sarah: I did a bunch of research on these keyboard
00:01:53 <emilio> ... I think people expect tab to commit, but esc to not commit
00:01:59 <emilio> ... some people do expect esc to commit
00:02:02 <masonf> q+
00:02:25 <masonf> emilio: tab committing I'd expect if I moved around in the list, but if I didn't, that would feel weird
00:02:30 <masonf> q-
00:02:30 <kbabbitt> q+
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00:02:40 <keithamus> ack JakeA
00:02:58 <emilio> sarah: depends on whether the combobox enforces a value or is free-form
00:03:10 <emilio> emilio: but I'd expect to clear or commit the firs then, and then move me to the next value
00:03:19 <kbabbitt> q-
00:03:27 <jarhar> https://github.com/openui/open-ui/issues/1319
00:03:33 <jarhar> q?
00:03:35 <emilio> jarhar: there's an openui issue about supporting a lot of these out of the box or not
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00:03:47 <frehner> ack me
00:03:47 <adamargyle> q+
00:04:07 <emilio> frehner: when you are using up/down, just for clarity, is this spacebar a text input or selection of something?
00:04:16 <emilio> jarhar: for the editable combobox you'd type space
00:04:35 <emilio> q+
00:04:55 <emilio> sarah: some comboboxes expect expect to select, depending on context
00:05:06 <emilio> ... sometimes they strongly expect them to select
00:05:16 <emilio> ... there's a strong user expectations one way or the other
00:05:30 <emilio> JakeA: yeah in email, comma might commit the selection
00:05:55 <masonf> q+
00:06:04 <emilio> keithamus: Yeah we probably should make every visible character populate the input, and if you need custom behavior you use script
00:06:16 <emilio> adamargyle: is <input type=search> relevant here?
00:06:24 <emilio> ... what's the delta between filtering vs searching here
00:06:29 <emilio> ... mostly interested in the clear button
00:06:42 <emilio> ... which search input comes with a clear feature
00:07:01 <emilio> jarhar: I think you could use search interchangeably
00:07:10 <emilio> ... I don't think there's semantic differences
00:07:15 <masonf> q-
00:07:17 <emilio> emilio (and keithamus): If you press escape it clears
00:07:19 <masonf> ack adam
00:07:44 <emilio> keithamus: Ideally it should just worth with search input
00:07:52 <jarhar> q?
00:07:56 <emilio> ack emilio
00:08:10 <masonf> emilio: similar to what Keith said. We should pick reasonable keyboard semantics.
00:08:14 <masonf> q+
00:08:27 <masonf> emilio: we shouldn't support all the complicated use cases out of the box
00:09:06 <sarah> q+
00:09:07 <emilio> masonf: for a good reason, if there's no natural choice then JS is the way out
00:09:09 <masonf> ack mason
00:09:33 <masonf> ack sarah
00:09:59 <emilio> sarah: there's a switch about whether affects free-form input or not, space selects, if not people lean expect space to select, there are a bunch of other behaviors
00:10:19 <emilio> keithamus: the other thing showing the option that would be committed if it's not free-form
00:10:31 <emilio> ... whenever there's a default selected applying that in placeholder style
00:10:54 <masonf> emilio: there's no way to say this input will take one of the options. It's free form always
00:11:12 <masonf> keithamus: that's a bit lift. Richer text inputs that include this feature.
00:11:14 <sarah> q+
00:11:25 <emilio> jarhar: definitely editable combobox is free form text
00:11:45 <emilio> ... you could build on top of it to make it behave like you want
00:11:48 <masonf> ack sarah
00:12:05 <emilio> sarah: we could say that if you're not using freeform you should use <input> inside <dialog> which is more accessible
00:12:42 <keithamus> https://open-ui.org/components/richer-text-fields.explainer/
00:13:03 <emilio> ... ghost text is wildly inaccessible and messes up screen readers nowadays
00:13:07 <emilio> ... browsers could do it right
00:13:41 <emilio> keithamus: I think a ghost text pseudo of sorts could be useful
00:13:52 <masonf> emilio: if you wanted to build it yourself, can't you do that with custom highlighting?
00:14:06 <masonf> emilio: it'd become part of the value, and the insertion point is hard, but you could do it that way?
00:14:15 <masonf> sarah: that might also screw up the a11y
00:14:26 <masonf> emilio: does the screen reader - once the value changes that's a problem.
00:14:37 <masonf> keithamus: need additional announcement for when ghost text gets populated
00:14:48 <masonf> keithamus: "you just typed this, we'll autocomplete that"
00:15:06 <masonf> sarah: backspace will delete highlighted, you want to delete the ghost text
00:15:16 <masonf> emilio: keep ghost text as part of the value, but style the ghost part differently
00:15:30 <masonf> sarah: move the insertion point - that breaks if it's part of the value
00:15:46 <masonf> emilio: move cursor to end would commit the value. It's tricky. Seems like a can of worms
00:15:51 <jarhar> q?
00:15:53 <adamargyle> q+
00:16:18 <emilio> jarhar: re. filtering
00:16:29 <emilio> ... one million options, and making it usable is tricky
00:16:36 <masonf> that's literally 1 million by the way
00:16:50 <emilio> ... other use cases are like autocomplete and fetch some of the options
00:17:10 <emilio> ... what I have right now is you have some filtering out of the box when you do either of these things
00:17:19 <emilio> ... for datalist it already does the filtering for you
00:17:55 <emilio> ... we could make this work with a `:filtered` pseudo-class of sorts which would make it display: none
00:18:00 <adamargyle> q- (we've moved on, but wanted to ask about current customized select tab and spacebar behavior, with concerns over consistency and not asking users to learn new patterns in what can other appear to be a very similar component)
00:18:10 <emilio> ... also some ideas about adding attrs with different values like pattern / startswith / complete
00:18:24 <emilio> ... for more interesting cases for custom filtering or dynamic options
00:18:30 <emilio> ... we have the beforefilter event
00:19:04 <emilio> ... so before the filter it'll fire the event on something and you can preventDefault it and some mechanism to repopulate the entire list box and do something to tell the browser that you're done doing the filtering
00:19:13 <emilio> ... and some way of designate options as filtering
00:19:21 <jarhar> q?
00:19:23 <keithamus> q+
00:19:31 <emilio> ack adamargyle
00:19:33 <kbabbitt> q+
00:19:47 <emilio> q+
00:19:51 <emilio> ack keith
00:20:09 <emilio> keithamus: curious about `pattern`, but one thing about `search` we ran in github
00:20:22 <emilio> ... is people not knowing why a particular option matched the filter
00:20:36 <emilio> ... e.g. options in the branch picker, it uses fuzzy-finding
00:20:44 <emilio> ... every character that matches is made bold
00:22:30 <masonf> q+
00:22:33 <emilio> ... we could use highlights to do that
00:22:38 <emilio> ... but that doesn't support boldness
00:22:45 <masonf> q-
00:22:53 <emilio> adamargyle: font variations can use it
00:23:30 <kbabbitt> q-
00:23:30 <masonf> emilio: including a way to do your own filtering seems important. Do it yourself
00:23:43 <masonf> emilio: wouldn't be too hard to make something easy to do
00:24:35 <masonf> emilio: you can build the matching thing, but it might be more common... in the firefox settings, there is fuzzy matching, not even part of the word. Cookies might find site data settings.
00:24:44 <masonf> q+
00:24:48 <masonf> ack emilio
00:25:00 <masonf> emilio: start simple, then add later
00:25:22 <emilio> masonf: +1, I don't like the search attribute at all, it should be basic basic search
00:25:26 <emilio> ... and js for the rest
00:25:43 <johanneswilm> q+
00:25:56 <masonf> emilio: expose a good way to implement filtering yourself then we can build more later.
00:26:29 <sarah> q+
00:27:04 <masonf> ack mason
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00:27:21 <adamargyle> using grad to prevent CLS but making letters appear bolder https://web.dev/blog/more-variable-font-options-in-chromium-83#grad
00:27:26 <emilio> keithamus: the branch and file pickers are prefetch. The file picker is debounced and performs a debounced sort
00:27:43 <emilio> ... user search performs a debounced search
00:28:01 <emilio> ... most of the perf cost is moving options in the dom, maybe improvable
00:28:12 <keithamus> q?
00:28:25 <emilio> jarhar: Yeah also in favor of getting rid of the search attribute
00:28:40 <emilio> ... kept it because it was in the original combobox explainer
00:28:46 <emilio> keithamus: the default should be then...
00:28:48 <kbabbitt> q+
00:28:51 <emilio> emilio: substring or startsWith?
00:28:54 <emilio> masonf: one of those?
00:29:05 <emilio> johanneswilm: yeah what are you supposed to do in JS?
00:29:10 <emilio> ... it should be async
00:29:31 <emilio> ... what do I get handed
00:29:38 <emilio> keithamus: beforefilter gets you an opportunity to preventDefault()
00:29:50 <emilio> johanneswilm: how am I supposed to apply a `:filtered` pseudo-class?
00:30:13 <emilio> masonf: not sure yet, we need some ideas
00:30:43 <emilio> emilio: I'd do the simple thing of having a boolean HTMLOptionElement.filtered
00:31:23 <jarhar> here is the issue about how to do this: https://github.com/openui/open-ui/issues/931
00:31:35 <masonf> emilio: there's a way to match stuff - you may get new options to add, etc. Just something basic, if you want to add options, ok. Do whatever you need in the event listener.
00:31:51 <masonf> emilio: we could also just say that if you preventDefault, you're on your own
00:32:14 <masonf> emilio: not worth it to provide a complex API
00:32:52 <emilio> keithamus: maybe this comes with the prototype but if you don't inform the browser it's done, what does it show?
00:33:18 <masonf> emilio: if you're doing your own filtering, then you can show a spinner or fade the list or whatever you like
00:33:29 <masonf> emilio: disable the browser filtering, do your own thing.
00:33:43 <frehner> q?
00:33:45 <masonf> jarhar: ok I agree
00:34:12 <emilio> jarhar: I have some example scripts that I wrote
00:34:18 <johanneswilm> q-
00:34:35 <emilio> ... I'd love to see if anyone has code examples about how this should work
00:34:45 <masonf> zakim, close queue
00:34:45 <Zakim> ok, masonf, the speaker queue is closed
00:34:54 <emilio> sarah: some things to consider
00:35:05 <emilio> ... defining some "no options matched" text
00:35:18 <emilio> ... without having to take over filtering
00:35:49 <emilio> ... something similar to what emilio said, you have United Kingdom but also match britain or so
00:35:58 <emilio> ... you don't want that in your filtering logic
00:36:06 <masonf> ack sarah
00:36:10 <emilio> ... and use that would be very useful
00:36:32 <emilio> keithamus: if it was using textContent you could use `<span style="display: none">`
00:36:48 <emilio> sarah: that doesn't quite work because you want them to be exclusive
00:36:59 <emilio> johanneswilm: could be like a data table where some columns are displayed and not
00:37:29 <johanneswilm> and some are searchable and others are not. searchabe doesn't always match displayed
00:37:44 <emilio> keithamus: an attribute on an option could be...
00:37:53 <emilio> ... but what happens if you put garbage on it?
00:38:13 <emilio> sarah: yeah I hadn't thought about attack vectors
00:38:32 <emilio> jarhar: similar to typeahead for select
00:38:48 <emilio> frehner: yeah if browser default is startswith it can get a bit hairy
00:38:53 <emilio> keithamus: or should it be includes
00:39:07 <emilio> kbabbitt: I agree we need some extensibility
00:39:11 <masonf> ack kbabbit
00:39:25 <emilio> ... but if there's a very small scoped options like startswith and so on that'd be good
00:39:52 <frehner> emilio: when you have a country list I would prefer includes/contains
00:40:18 <masonf> q?
00:40:28 <emilio> keithamus: I live in "the united kingdom" where it can be frustrating
00:41:18 <emilio> adam: Was testing the keyboard behavior of select, I noticed there's a delta where combobox. Teaching users many different ways to do something similar seems bad. In customizable select it moves through the options
00:41:20 <kbabbitt> our engineers working on webui are very interested in eliminating as much JS as possible, if we can provide a scoped list of widely-used built-in searches such as startswith vs includes, or whole-word vs partial-word, I think that would be good
00:41:21 <emilio> jarhar: that looks like a bug
00:41:23 <sarah> q+
00:41:50 <emilio> adam: Maybe just because I arrowed then tab
00:42:04 <emilio> jarhar: when option receives a tab key down it should select
00:42:10 <emilio> adam: Spacebar is also making choices
00:42:25 <emilio> ... current select element allows spacebar to make the choice
00:42:26 <emilio> q+
00:43:03 <emilio> adam: also <select> down arrow pops the picker sometimes, but would be good to figure out those details
00:43:51 <frehner> emilio: this also depends on each OS/env, so there's variance here
00:43:59 <frehner> ... I would prefer to come up with something consistent here
00:44:25 <emilio> jarhar: in chrome I'd probably make it consistent across platforms
00:44:34 <emilio> ... but the spec probably needs to be optional (same for wpt)
00:44:58 <jarhar> q?
00:44:59 <emilio> sarah: Some of this behavior is unintuitive for users
00:45:17 <kbabbitt> kbabbitt has left #openui
00:45:49 <jarhar> zakim, end meeting
00:45:49 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been frehner, argyle, JakeA, kbabbitt, masonf, emilio
00:45:52 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
00:45:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-openui-minutes.html Zakim
00:45:59 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jarhar; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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13:29:43 <tidoust> rrsagent, bye
13:29:43 <RRSAgent> I see no action items