IRC log of i18n on 2025-11-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

01:06:18 [RRSAgent]
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01:06:22 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-i18n-irc
01:06:35 [xfq]
Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Day 2 - TPAC 2025
01:06:55 [xfq]
present+ r12a, martin, eemeli, Bert, xfq, fantasai, florian
01:07:02 [xfq]
chair: xfq
01:07:08 [xfq]
scribe+ xfq
01:07:12 [xfq]
RRSAgent, make minutes
01:07:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-i18n-minutes.html xfq
01:07:35 [xfq]
RRSAgent, make log public
01:07:38 [xfq]
RRSAgent, make minutes
01:07:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-i18n-minutes.html xfq
01:09:03 [berlysia]
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01:09:24 [saji]
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01:10:06 [r12a]
https://w3c.github.io/i18n-activity/reviews/#html-ruby-extensions
01:10:10 [xfq]
Topic: Ruby
01:10:16 [xfq]
scribe+ xfq
01:10:41 [xfq]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue%20state%3Aopen%20label%3As%3Ahtml-ruby-extensions
01:10:50 [xfq]
https://github.com/w3c/html-ruby/issues/22
01:10:51 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/html-ruby/issues/22 -> Issue 22 Remove example 8 figure 3 to avoid canonicalising a not-yet-established approach (by r12a) [i18n-needs-resolution] [Needs: Edits] [i18n-clreq] [i18n-jlreq] [i18n-mlreq]
01:11:07 [Bobby]
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01:11:09 [fantasai]
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01:11:19 [xfq]
https://github.com/w3c/html-ruby/issues/17
01:11:19 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/html-ruby/issues/17 -> Issue 17 Add rb>rt>rb>rt example code to Example 1 (by r12a) [i18n-needs-resolution] [i18n-clreq] [i18n-jlreq] [i18n-mlreq]
01:12:30 [xfq]
present+ Emil
01:12:36 [xfq]
RRSAgent, make minutes
01:12:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-i18n-minutes.html xfq
01:12:52 [xfq]
[florian introduces issue #17]
01:12:53 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/17 -> CLOSED Action 17 Publish fpwd of korean gap analysis (on xfq) due 18 Jul 2023
01:13:18 [xfq]
r12a: my pref is have an rb opening and an rt opening
01:13:54 [xfq]
... we're asserting that an rb tag is a useful thing to have
01:15:13 [xfq]
... you could say here we're going to mark up a simple piece of two words with ruby
01:15:21 [xfq]
... and here are a few ways to do that
01:15:41 [xfq]
florian: the rest of the spec does that
01:15:58 [xfq]
r12a: my pref is always to front-load stuff and then explain it afterwards
01:16:41 [xfq]
fantasai: I'm happy to compromise on including the rb tag
01:16:55 [xfq]
... i'd rather not include all the patterns at this point
01:17:07 [xfq]
... there is a deliberate ordering in here
01:17:20 [xfq]
... growing in complexities in order to not overwhelm people initially
01:18:17 [xfq]
florian: I'll write it in the issue
01:18:35 [xfq]
Subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/html-ruby/issues/22
01:18:36 [gb]
s|https://github.com/w3c/html-ruby/issues/22|-">https://github.com/w3c/html-ruby/issues/22|-> Issue 22 Remove example 8 figure 3 to avoid canonicalising a not-yet-established approach (by r12a) [i18n-needs-resolution] [Needs: Edits] [i18n-clreq] [i18n-jlreq] [i18n-mlreq] https://github.com/w3c/html-ruby/issues/22
01:19:03 [r12a]
https://www.w3.org/TR/html-ruby-extensions/#jukugo-ruby
01:20:19 [xfq]
florian: this is an example discussing jukugo ruby
01:20:30 [xfq]
[florian introduces the issue]
01:20:39 [xfq]
florian: in the illustrations I'm using here
01:20:48 [fantasai]
github: https://github.com/w3c/html-ruby/issues/22
01:20:54 [xfq]
... inside example 8
01:21:16 [xfq]
... if you go down there's a figure 1, 2, 3
01:21:32 [xfq]
... show at various size ratios between the base character and the annotation characters
01:21:43 [xfq]
... various ways you might want to lay out things in
01:22:09 [xfq]
... we need to have enough info in the spec to be able to distinguish the things
01:22:21 [xfq]
... maybe the layout chosen by CSS will be this one, maybe not
01:22:43 [xfq]
... if we didn't have that, the whole notion of jukugo ruby becomes irrelevant
01:23:06 [xfq]
... the strength of the tabular markup is it allows @@1
01:23:07 [felipeerias]
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01:23:22 [xfq]
r12a: add some of that to the spec would be good
01:24:10 [xfq]
florian: I'll make an editorial change to this example to illustrate what i said, rather than what it seems to be saying
01:24:20 [xfq]
... afaik this is the i18n feedback on this
01:24:35 [xfq]
... privacy, and TAG gave thumbs up
01:24:48 [xfq]
... security and a11y did not get back to us and they've had 1.5 years
01:24:59 [xfq]
... I suspect we'll assume they're happy
01:25:16 [xfq]
... how do you read it on the screen reader
01:25:22 [xfq]
... this is a very important topic
01:25:28 [xfq]
... i would like to tackle it later
01:27:39 [xfq]
fantasai: maybe you can say that tts, copy & past, findability is interesting but undefined
01:27:45 [xfq]
s/past/paste
01:28:51 [xfq]
note that we have a document on find-in-page: https://www.w3.org/TR/string-search/
01:29:20 [xfq]
and an open issue related to ruby: https://github.com/w3c/string-search/issues/22
01:29:21 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/string-search/issues/22 -> Issue 22 Non-body text (by xfq)
01:30:15 [fantasai]
fantasai: you shouldn't have worse usability of a page by adding annotations to it
01:30:29 [fantasai]
... find needs to be able to find things while ignoring the annotations
01:30:30 [xfq]
scribe+ fantasai
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01:41:02 [fantasai]
[discussing what to discuss]
01:42:15 [fantasai]
[florian recaps the situation with the logical properties stuff]
01:42:38 [fantasai]
Topic: WCAG Debrief
01:42:49 [fantasai]
r12a: The WCAG folks are trying to classify questions of readability
01:43:00 [fantasai]
... whether general readability or related to accessibility issues
01:43:06 [fantasai]
... e.g. inter-line gaps, justification, etc.
01:43:16 [fantasai]
... They're trying to do that in WCAG 3
01:43:25 [xfq]
Minutes of the breakout session: https://www.w3.org/2025/11/10-wcag2-non-latin-minutes.html
01:43:34 [fantasai]
... In WCAG 2, say that if you increase the font size etc. it shouldn't break the display
01:43:44 [fantasai]
... but don't say that you should use a particular minimum size or whatever
01:43:49 [fantasai]
... They want to say those specific things
01:44:10 [fantasai]
... We're pushing for them to not specify for English and then leave other languages out
01:44:23 [fantasai]
... They've started a group to work on this problem very slowly
01:44:35 [fantasai]
... Started with a table they call "guard rail" recommendations.
01:44:45 [fantasai]
... They have Chinese, Arabic, Latin, Hindi, and Russian
01:45:20 [fantasai]
... This doesn't touch SE Asian languages, and has other problems.
01:45:38 [fantasai]
... The approach is to say, "look for script similar to your script" but this isn't working.
01:45:53 [fantasai]
... They don't know where to find the information, so we assume that whatever happens, this will be a set of information that grows over time
01:46:03 [fantasai]
... as they find experts who can provide information about accessibility-related readability
01:46:12 [fantasai]
... So we were pushing them to create a registry or set of documents or whatever outside the main core text
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01:46:25 [fantasai]
... that has all the details about what to do to ensure readability for a given script
01:46:39 [fantasai]
... There may be groups of scripts that behave similarly, and could group together
01:46:45 [fantasai]
... That's the summary
01:46:58 [xfq]
q+
01:47:16 [fantasai]
r12a: They also raised the issue of "ruby" and how you can use it for pronunciation of differnet lnaguages
01:47:28 [fantasai]
... but I emphasized that it's primarily designed for East Asian languages
01:47:42 [fantasai]
florian: I think I subtly disagree with you on this one.
01:47:51 [fantasai]
... at this stage, might be the right way to say it
01:48:00 [fantasai]
... but advice to spec authors and implementers should be what you said
01:48:09 [xfq]
ack florian
01:48:09 [fantasai]
... but if we design and implement ruby for its intended use cases
01:48:26 [fantasai]
... but it turns out to be useful for other scripts, then it is perfectly fine to use it for other languages
01:48:38 [fantasai]
r12a: People want to use it for glossing, which it's not well-adapted for
01:48:43 [duerst]
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01:48:49 [fantasai]
... I fear they'll stop work on ruby until they figure that out
01:48:54 [fantasai]
... but I want to get ruby finished for the CJK market
01:49:20 [fantasai]
... But rather than just jumping on ruby bnadwagon, if it's about pronunciation, what about SSML say-as or other ways of expressing pronunciation?
01:49:29 [fantasai]
... CJK does it through ruby, but not necessarily best for other languages
01:49:35 [xfq]
ack fantasai
01:49:41 [xfq]
fantasai: for rendering to audio
01:49:50 [xfq]
... ruby is designed primarily rendering to visual
01:50:00 [xfq]
... there's a little bit of a distinction here
01:50:36 [xfq]
r12a: you can also have the pronunciation between slashes/brackets etc.
01:50:52 [xfq]
... you can always markup span
01:50:56 [fantasai]
r12a: Other thing is, the accessibility folks want to introduce a symbolic language (Bliss symbols)
01:51:09 [fantasai]
florian: It's Chinese ideographs :)
01:51:11 [xfq]
s/markup span/a markup span with a class
01:51:26 [fantasai]
r12a: They're not doing a fully system at the moment, but they want to attach pictures to bits of text (like nouns)
01:51:33 [fantasai]
... won't have semantics or syntax or stuff like that
01:51:46 [fantasai]
... but again, looking at ruby
01:51:59 [fantasai]
... and we point out, well what if ruby is already being used for its intended purpose?
01:52:00 [xfq]
https://w3c.github.io/ruby-t2s-req/
01:52:13 [fantasai]
... so we have this constant problem with ruby appearing to be a panacea ...
01:52:20 [fantasai]
florian: Playing devil's advocate ...
01:52:31 [fantasai]
... Though I agree that ruby is targetted at CJK and should be designed for it
01:52:37 [fantasai]
... we have somewhat struggled with adoption of it
01:52:45 [fantasai]
... if it was made useful for more things, maybe it helps us get there?
01:52:50 [fantasai]
r12a: maybe not
01:53:02 [fantasai]
florian: Maybe not, but sometimes when you have more people pushing for a feature it helps adoption
01:53:22 [fantasai]
duerst: Accessibility use case isn't big enough to have that effect
01:54:11 [xfq]
q?
01:54:36 [fantasai]
xfq: Did they discuss next steps?
01:54:39 [fantasai]
r12a: Not really
01:54:46 [Bobby]
q+
01:54:46 [fantasai]
xfq: How do we follow up?
01:55:00 [xfq]
ack xfq
01:55:10 [fantasai]
r12a: There was talk about ruby specifically. Makoto was there, talked about his topics.
01:55:13 [xfq]
present+ Bobby
01:55:17 [xfq]
RRSAgent, make minutes
01:55:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-i18n-minutes.html xfq
01:55:25 [fantasai]
... Another topic was WCAG 2, which is not going to change
01:55:32 [fantasai]
... and which currently has things about increasing font size shouldn't break, but doesn't have details about readability
01:55:41 [fantasai]
... And then there's WCAG 3 where those things could be addressed
01:55:51 [fantasai]
... Unfortunately all of those things were talked about at the same time in the meeting
01:56:03 [fantasai]
... Mentioned that to the chair as a problem
01:56:10 [fantasai]
... In terms of going forward, not much to do on WCAG 2
01:56:17 [fantasai]
... I think Makoto will drive anything he's doing on ruby
01:56:33 [fantasai]
... And I think we need to keep talking with Jan about this approach and getting rid fo the gurad rails table.
01:56:43 [fantasai]
... But no definite plans
01:56:57 [fantasai]
xfq: Ok, I guess we'll need to revisit this
01:57:03 [Bobby]
q+
01:57:10 [fantasai]
r12a: Certainly felt like a re-run of previous conversations :)
01:57:21 [fantasai]
... but we might need to get more involved with Jon and ??
01:57:56 [xfq]
fantasai: on removing the guardrails table and having an external reference
01:58:06 [xfq]
... externalizing it seems like the right thing to do
01:58:19 [xfq]
... in terms of finding the experts to provide that data
01:58:34 [xfq]
... maybe the daisy consortium would be helpful
01:58:34 [xfq]
... they work on very related stuff
01:58:40 [xfq]
... and might have contacts
01:58:54 [fantasai]
r12a: One issue is testing
01:59:09 [fantasai]
... if this is not normative text, the readability guidelines, they'r ea bit worried about whether people will actually follow those guidelines
02:00:13 [xfq]
fantasai: they can have a general statement that requires conformance
02:00:27 [xfq]
... qualitative conformance criteria
02:00:44 [xfq]
... and then these guidelines help you translate that into a specific test
02:00:52 [xfq]
florian: I agree
02:01:07 [xfq]
... if we're talking about wcag tests
02:01:16 [xfq]
... test content instead of impls
02:01:43 [xfq]
... if legislation says you're not allowed to publish a government website unless it's wcag AAA or some level
02:01:47 [xfq]
... it's hard to define
02:02:08 [xfq]
... in javanese my line height is this much, is it a pass?
02:02:23 [xfq]
fantasai: you would have to make an argument that the guidelines are wrong
02:02:42 [xfq]
r12a: the tests we're talking about is yes I conform to AAA
02:02:52 [xfq]
... and here's test to show that my content follows those
02:03:04 [xfq]
... and they've tied those to normative statements
02:03:17 [xfq]
florian: for some languages we have the abstract requirement
02:03:36 [xfq]
... for some languages we have the abstract req but not the detailed one
02:03:44 [xfq]
q?
02:03:47 [xfq]
ack fantasai
02:03:55 [xfq]
ack Bobby
02:03:56 [fantasai]
Bobby: Ruby is very important for bopomofo
02:04:05 [Bobby]
https://cmex-30.github.io/Bopomofo_on_Web/testpage/index.html
02:04:07 [xfq]
RRSAgent, make minutes
02:04:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-i18n-minutes.html xfq
02:04:15 [fantasai]
... I have posted the layout by font
02:04:29 [Bobby]
https://buttaiwan.github.io/bpmfvs/
02:04:31 [fantasai]
... My friend made a tool that uses ideographic variant to let you choose the different pronunciations for a single han character
02:04:52 [fantasai]
... [missed]
02:05:30 [fantasai]
... If you mark all han characters with bopomofo, the text to speech will recognize the bopomofo and spell the characters correcters
02:05:50 [fantasai]
... but pronunciation ruby base + ruby text, ruby base + ruby text, etc. is a real problem
02:06:02 [Bobby]
ack Bobby
02:06:04 [fantasai]
florian: this continues to be a known problem
02:06:18 [fantasai]
... but the knowledge of it being a problem is spreading
02:06:22 [fantasai]
... the correct solution isn't designed yet
02:06:31 [fantasai]
... and browsers are starting to know about it, and that might make a difference
02:06:43 [fantasai]
<br type=coffee>
02:07:11 [fantasai]
s/coffee/coffee duration=14m
02:08:21 [xfq]
RRSAgent, make minutes
02:08:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-i18n-minutes.html xfq
02:36:18 [saji]
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present+ Murata
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02:39:20 [xfq]
Topic: DOM localization
02:39:28 [xfq]
minutes of today's breakout session: https://www.w3.org/2025/11/10-dom-localization-minutes.html
02:40:54 [xfq]
eemeli: this is the content I shared from the morning session
02:41:10 [xfq]
... an extract of how we localize the browser's front end
02:41:24 [xfq]
... where in the XHTML that is rendering parts of the UI
02:41:33 [xfq]
... we defined a link to an external resource
02:41:39 [xfq]
... a l10n resource
02:42:04 [xfq]
... the idea would be to introduce something similar to the web platform
02:42:21 [xfq]
slideset for the breakout session: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1ON2yeocyDSVr8r0cg8ZlhgpFfsvloznq1pJqYSADJs8/edit?usp=sharing
02:42:47 [xfq]
eemeli: if you look at the tabctx-new-tab-open
02:43:39 [xfq]
... Should we work on introducing localization as a capability of the web platform?
02:43:45 [xfq]
... Is the Internationalization WG an appropriate forum for standardizing the message resource file format?
02:43:47 [xfq]
... How specific to localization should the HTML capabilities be?
02:44:42 [xfq]
[eemeli shows what this could look like on the web]
02:45:14 [xfq]
eemeli: the next step arising from the discussion this morning is to propose to the WHATWG for the HTML parts of this
02:47:30 [xfq]
... one required part is beyond the HTML is the file format
02:47:30 [xfq]
... whether this WG is an appropriate forum to specify a message resource file format
02:47:30 [atsushi]
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02:47:30 [xfq]
RRSAgent, make minutes
02:47:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-i18n-minutes.html xfq
02:47:44 [xfq]
... there's also potential for stretching to allowing for various DOM mutations
02:54:48 [xfq]
... should it be focus on supporting message formatting only?
02:54:48 [xfq]
... or would it be better to design it as a general purpose container for values?
02:54:48 [xfq]
... there is no one solution to these problems
02:54:48 [xfq]
... it's the discussions ought to take place
02:54:52 [xfq]
eemeli: we need to update the charter if we decide to work on it here
02:54:52 [xfq]
present+ Felipe
02:54:52 [xfq]
felipe: what's the scope of l10n?
02:54:52 [r12a]
present+
02:54:52 [xfq]
eemeli: that is exactly the third question I have here
02:54:52 [xfq]
... there is a number of different existing l10n resource formats
02:54:52 [xfq]
... those could be reviewed
02:54:52 [xfq]
... Java .properties file
02:54:52 [xfq]
... Gettext PO files
02:54:52 [xfq]
... the Fluent format
02:54:52 [xfq]
felipe: even if you only translate strings
02:54:52 [xfq]
... it's not just a simple list of strings that get translated
02:54:52 [xfq]
... do you forsee this being a single global file, or maybe one per supported language?
02:54:52 [xfq]
eemeli: what I would envision would be that a single physical file for a one locale
02:54:52 [xfq]
... for multiple locales, you would end up with separate files
02:54:52 [xfq]
... same keys, different values
02:54:52 [xfq]
... HTML is unlikely the only place where such a file format would be used
02:54:52 [xfq]
... like CSS
02:54:52 [xfq]
felipe: in CSS you could add strings before or after an element
02:54:52 [xfq]
RRSAgent, make minutes
02:54:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-i18n-minutes.html xfq
02:54:58 [xfq]
xfq: I think it could be incubated within this group
03:32:37 [RRSAgent]
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03:32:38 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-i18n-irc
03:32:48 [xfq]
RRSAgent, make minutes
03:32:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-i18n-minutes.html xfq
03:35:09 [xfq]
Topic: XML errata
03:35:09 [xfq]
[eemeli introduces the issue]
03:35:09 [xfq]
Murata: initially we tried to find all names for XML
03:35:09 [xfq]
... it's too difficult for the XML WG to study every character
03:35:10 [xfq]
... it's just not impossible
03:35:10 [xfq]
... I know some other committees in ISO did something similar
03:35:10 [xfq]
... but not very successful
03:35:11 [xfq]
... unless there's a very very strong reason to disallow them
03:35:11 [xfq]
... XML will allow them
03:35:11 [xfq]
... I dislike this decision
03:35:12 [xfq]
... but it's an sensible decision
03:35:22 [xfq]
RRSAgent, make minutes
03:35:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-i18n-minutes.html xfq
03:36:10 [xfq]
martin: the errata from the 4th edition to the 5th edition should be documented somewhere
03:36:22 [xfq]
RRSAgent, make minutes
03:36:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-i18n-minutes.html xfq
03:36:38 [xfq]
martin: XML parsers don't get changed very often
03:36:56 [xfq]
... this would essentially be backward-incompatible
03:37:06 [xfq]
... it would make some documents illegal
03:37:20 [xfq]
... also, Murata-san says the rule now is very, very open
03:38:12 [xfq]
Murata: I don't have to be familari with all languages around the world
03:38:17 [xfq]
... and the compatibility battle
03:39:26 [xfq]
eemeli: relatively high chance to use this character in localizable messages
03:40:13 [xfq]
martin: the issues of bidi formatting chars came up a few years ago in programming languages
03:40:24 [xfq]
... they're very scared
03:40:38 [xfq]
... they changed so that bidi formatting characters show up
03:40:40 [xfq]
... also for github
03:41:58 [xfq]
eemeli: you can have invisible characters in XML
03:42:04 [xfq]
... ALM is an invisible character
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05:31:07 [xfq]
Topic: Plan for the 2025-11-14 meeting with WHATWG
05:31:13 [xfq]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue%20state%3Aopen%20label%3Awhatwg
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05:33:25 [xfq]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue%20state%3Aopen%20label%3AAgenda%2BI18N%2BWHATWG
05:34:01 [xfq]
fantasai: I'm interested in https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1819
05:34:01 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1819 -> Issue 1819 Should dir=auto with no strong characters inherit directionality from parent or be ltr? (by w3cbot) [close?] [tracker] [s:html] [needs-attention] [i:bidi_text] [spec-type-issue] [alreq] [hlreq] [t:bidi_markup] [Agenda+I18N+WHATWG]
05:34:01 [gb]
… [whatwg]
05:43:15 [xfq]
eemeli: I think the point 3 in https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/10097#issuecomment-2746324449 needs more thoughts
05:43:15 [gb]
https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/10097 -> Issue 10097 Should dir=auto with no strong characters inherit directionality from parent or be ltr? (by dbaron) [i18n-tracker] [i18n-alreq] [i18n-hlreq]
05:43:45 [xfq]
fantasai: I think we should consider using weakly-directional characters (point 2)
05:43:51 [xfq]
RRSAgent, make minutes
05:43:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-i18n-minutes.html xfq
05:44:54 [xfq]
eemeli: my gut feeling is that it will occasionally make things right, but we will have more edge cases
05:44:58 [xfq]
fantasai: that makes sense to me
05:45:28 [xfq]
... I have a vague feeling that introducing inheritance is to @@3
05:45:40 [xfq]
... if it's empty then inherit the direction
05:45:51 [xfq]
... if it's not empty the default is ltr
05:46:22 [xfq]
eemeli: being a user who will never experience this I have no strong opinion except point 3
05:46:44 [xfq]
fantasai: I'm not familar with weakly-directional characters
05:46:52 [xfq]
... are they only digits?
05:46:58 [fantasai]
s/only/only LTR/
05:47:03 [saji]
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05:47:14 [fantasai]
... or do Arabic digits behave as LTR but resolve the paragraph to RTL or something?
05:52:58 [xfq]
eemeli: I think the Arabic-Indic numerals are weakly rtl
05:53:04 [xfq]
r12a: they're weakly ltr
05:53:45 [xfq]
fantasai: there's an advantage to be consistent with Unicode
05:55:19 [xfq]
... you could say that if the box is empty then inherit the direction
05:55:27 [xfq]
... if it contains content, then it's ltr
06:00:28 [xfq]
Topic: Proposed changes for WCAG 2.3
06:00:30 [fantasai]
scribe+
06:00:50 [fantasai]
MM: [introduces himself]
06:01:33 [fantasai]
MM: When WCAG 2.2 was created, there are some comments from CJK guys such as Kida-san, "is this only for western languages?"
06:01:48 [fantasai]
... Answer was "no", but WCAG2.2 at that time was completely western-centric, and still is
06:02:00 [fantasai]
... But some non-normative notes, and there was a formal objection
06:02:20 [fantasai]
... There was an outstanding issue from Kida-san, which W3C didn't notice, and created PR. So there was an FO.
06:02:37 [fantasai]
... But result was additional non-normative notes, like "this doesn't apply to non-Western languages"
06:03:00 [fantasai]
... WCAG2.2 was submitted to ISO, and Japanese were interested in having an ISO standard
06:03:20 [fantasai]
... AGWG said they would address the problem in WCAG3, and urged to not oppose the DIS
06:03:35 [fantasai]
... And now we have an international standard for WCAG2.2
06:03:52 [fantasai]
... So now it's time to discuss again. And we had a breakout session this morning.
06:04:08 [fantasai]
MM: First I learned is WCAG is not HTML or EPUB only, but also PDF while it's on the Web.
06:04:41 [fantasai]
... So I proposed this SC for Level A: When ruby is used, the association between the ruby base and its annotations must be programmatically determinable
06:05:26 [fantasai]
... This applies to HTML and EPUB. But doesn't apply to PDF if accessibility 3 is not provided. 10 years ago no PDF publications provided accessibility tress for PDF, and 5 years ago Adobe started using such roles correctly; and now MSFT has also started.
06:05:41 [fantasai]
... So some PDF documents satisfy this SC. Though many don't.
06:05:42 [xfq]
RRSAgent, make minutes
06:05:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-i18n-minutes.html xfq
06:06:02 [fantasai]
... Instead they have another line of text with small characters, which is completely inaccessible. Hence Level A.
06:06:13 [fantasai]
MMM: I will demonstrate a DAISY reader, often used in Japan.
06:07:07 [fantasai]
... Here we have some ruby text [in blue]. For some people, distinguishing ruby text from base text is challenging, so we need different colors.
06:07:18 [fantasai]
... Foreground, background, ruby text color.
06:07:23 [fantasai]
... Also we increased the size of the ruby
06:07:32 [fantasai]
... THis is important for low-vision people.
06:07:41 [fantasai]
... They often use non-square fonts.
06:08:03 [fantasai]
... This reader can have full ruby, or no ruby, or ruby at jr. high school level
06:08:09 [fantasai]
... It allows good controls based on demands of the user
06:08:26 [fantasai]
... This is possible only because we have captured the relationships properly in the HTML.
06:08:42 [fantasai]
florian: In addition to relation of base and ruby, you also have information about the level of difficulty
06:09:08 [fantasai]
... Since the UA is able to add/remove ruby, it means there is some kind of standardized information about how difficult the ruby are
06:09:16 [fantasai]
MM: This one has different documents, but we might want to standardize it
06:09:32 [fantasai]
florian: Doing it in one document is easy. But doing it across multiple documents with a UA, is challenging
06:09:55 [fantasai]
MM: Depends on the teaching schedule, so don't want to get into that discussion!
06:10:18 [fantasai]
MM: This reader can change character spacing, line spacing, etc. in addition to font size.
06:10:34 [fantasai]
MM: Anyway, having this SC is important.
06:10:51 [fantasai]
... Some people in AGWG suggest it should be informative.
06:11:23 [fantasai]
MM: Let me explain what happens if we don't have this SC. Ruby will be read aloud separately. It will be a complete mess to read.
06:11:34 [fantasai]
s/to read/to use text to speech/
06:11:50 [fantasai]
... So lots of PDF documents don't have such ruby roles.
06:12:09 [fantasai]
MM: Reason for Level A is because the document cannot be understood otherwise.
06:12:35 [fantasai]
MM: Currently, we have ruby markup that can capture this information (though there is still some room for improvement).
06:13:01 [fantasai]
... PDF was horrible and is better now. Tagged PDF can perserve the info.
06:13:13 [fantasai]
... Hoping that accessibily trees can expose this information
06:13:48 [fantasai]
MM: Because of comments and objections, htere were some non-normative ad-hoc notes added to other SCs, but this is not a solution.
06:14:01 [fantasai]
... the abstract requirement is "relationship between elements should be captured"
06:14:04 [fantasai]
florian: Agree that's too high level
06:14:17 [fantasai]
MM: Some accessibilty requirements depend on the writing system or content language.
06:14:29 [fantasai]
... goal is the same across all languages: text should be readable.
06:14:46 [fantasai]
... But the appropriate line length, spacing, etc. may differ. And may have requirements specific to some writing system or other, e.g. ruby or bidi or whatever
06:15:07 [fantasai]
MM: In my experience Japanese typographers know basically nothing about accessibility.
06:15:16 [fantasai]
... probably true in other languages as well
06:15:23 [fantasai]
... even when they are otherwise very knowledgeable
06:15:44 [fantasai]
... when I learned from DAISY and explained to Kobayashi-sensei and Kobayashi-san, they didn't know beforehand
06:16:00 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/clreq/issues/718">https://github.com/w3c/clreq/issues/718 -> https://github.com/w3c/clreq/issues/718
06:16:05 [fantasai]
MM: My hope is WCAG 2.3 will introduce natural language dependency.
06:16:16 [fantasai]
... We say a requirement in general terms
06:16:34 [fantasai]
... and if we have a language-specific requirement, we say which language it applies to
06:16:41 [fantasai]
... But where do we stop? There are so many languages in the world.
06:17:12 [fantasai]
... I hate idea that WCAG 2.3 covering "first-class languages" and other languages covered in non-normative documents as "second-class languages"
06:17:25 [florian]
q+ fantasai to talk about abstract requirements and concrete guidelines, as in css-text
06:17:39 [fantasai]
... This is what I explained in the breakout. i18nWG is supportive. Accessibility participants were mixed.
06:17:58 [xfq]
fantasai: what we do in the CSS spec
06:18:03 [xfq]
... we have a similar issue
06:18:21 [xfq]
... the behaviour of line breaking
06:18:39 [xfq]
... we have very little language or writing-system specific information about line breaking
06:18:44 [xfq]
... there's no specific requirements
06:18:53 [xfq]
... even our ref to UAX 14 is informative
06:19:00 [xfq]
... you don't have to follow it
06:19:24 [xfq]
... the normative req is that you have to break the lines according to the typographic tradition of the language
06:19:46 [xfq]
... for WCAG what they probably should do is the general req that the text should be readable
06:20:08 [xfq]
... and then to have the details of exactly what size/line height etc. in a separate document
06:20:10 [fantasai]
MM: Now, we can provide very specific conditions, requirements, based on western languages.
06:20:19 [fantasai]
... Partly because people in AGWG are western
06:20:35 [fantasai]
... and partly because the EU governments want these requirements, and approved the text already
06:20:39 [fantasai]
... This is what they said
06:21:03 [fantasai]
... Why specify line height or length? Because even if somebody uses UA to achieve this layout, the contents shouldn't break.
06:21:12 [fantasai]
... This is what they specify in WCAG.
06:21:28 [fantasai]
... So it doesn't say what line height, just says even if someone tweaks the line height, the content shouldn't break.
06:21:33 [fantasai]
fantasai: That's a reasonable requirement.
06:21:45 [xfq]
q?
06:21:48 [xfq]
ack fantasai
06:21:48 [Zakim]
fantasai, you wanted to talk about abstract requirements and concrete guidelines, as in css-text
06:22:02 [fantasai]
florian: I don't know exactly WCAG people work with this, but I suspect that when law and regulation requires a document, they tend to be very specific, and probably point to a dated version of WCAG.
06:22:14 [fantasai]
... There is nothing in the W3C Process that says "when law references you, you cannot change".
06:22:27 [fantasai]
... So we should change if we think we need a change.
06:22:36 [fantasai]
... and the government can update their reference if they want to update their reference
06:23:18 [fantasai]
MM: These people care a lot about backward-compatibility, meaning, if they produce a document that is WCAG-compliant against the latest spec, it is also conformat to older versions of WCAG.
06:23:24 [fantasai]
... So they strongly argue that they cannot drop any requirements.
06:23:32 [xfq]
ack fantasai
06:23:41 [Bobby]
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06:23:43 [xfq]
fantasai: is there a requirement that's problematic
06:23:53 [xfq]
... or do we need to add more reqs?
06:23:59 [xfq]
s/that's problematic/that's problematic?/
06:24:32 [fantasai]
MM: For example, paragraph separation is not common in Japan. It's not taught in schools. But WCAG requires that if you add more spacing between the paragraphs, and the layout breaks, that document is non-conformant.
06:24:40 [xfq]
fantasai: that seems reasonable
06:25:04 [xfq]
... in general, if you change the font size, line height, paragraph spacing, letter spacing, or any of these things
06:25:11 [xfq]
... if you translate it to German
06:25:39 [xfq]
... a well-constructed document will be able to accommodate some resonable amount of those changes
06:26:18 [xfq]
... CSSWG spent a very large proportion of the time as a WG to make such auto-sizing worked incorrectly
06:26:30 [xfq]
... fundamentally the web platform is designed to enable this
06:27:08 [fantasai]
xfq: It's possible to do it this way, but authors don't always do it right.
06:27:32 [Bobby]
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06:27:38 [fantasai]
MM: Since WCAG is referenced by regulations, needs to specify numbers.
06:28:03 [fantasai]
Topic: Ruby Accessibility Note
06:28:19 [fantasai]
MM: Latest ED is this, it covers a lot of cases.
06:28:29 [xfq]
https://w3c.github.io/ruby-t2s-req/
06:28:35 [fantasai]
... This document says how documents containing ruby should be read aloud: ruby base, ruby annotation, or both
06:28:38 [fantasai]
... Answer is "it depends"
06:28:55 [fantasai]
... People want an answer! But the answer is "it depends".
06:29:01 [fantasai]
... Or use AI. ;)
06:29:23 [fantasai]
... Some analysis can detect whether a given annotation is for phonetics or not.
06:29:40 [fantasai]
... In that case, you can tell by relying on some natural-language processing, whether it should be read aloud or not
06:29:48 [fantasai]
... I woudl like to publish some version of this as a DNOTE in November.
06:29:59 [fantasai]
... So I have asked for some reviews from experts.
06:30:08 [florian]
q+
06:30:10 [fantasai]
... Biggest open issue is request for reliable mechanism
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06:30:21 [fantasai]
fantasai: That is outside the scope of a note, yes. :)
06:30:29 [fantasai]
xfq: But some specification in the future could specify this.
06:30:56 [fantasai]
florian: I agree. The solution is important, that's why we work on it. But this is a problem statement, you don't need a solution to publish a problem statement.
06:31:26 [fantasai]
florian: Notes don't need to be finished to be published. So if you have imminent changes, you can make them first. but publish this month. it is already a useful document, and it's not good to refer to an editor's draft.
06:31:36 [fantasai]
... so if we want to point people to it -- even if not finished -- it is best to be published.
06:31:54 [fantasai]
... And then you can keep working on it and republish it.
06:32:14 [fantasai]
xfq: You only need a resolution to publish within this group
06:32:25 [fantasai]
florian: If we think anyone other than this group should look at it, then we should publish it.
06:32:37 [fantasai]
... If it's so early that nobody outside this group should look at it, then it's too early.
06:32:42 [fantasai]
... but otherwise we should publish it.
06:32:53 [fantasai]
xfq: We should rename the shortname first, though.
06:33:36 [xfq]
https://www.w3.org/TR/jlreq/
06:33:42 [xfq]
Requirements for Japanese Text Layout
06:33:48 [fantasai]
[bikeshedding]
06:34:02 [xfq]
https://github.com/w3c/ruby-t2s-req/issues/66
06:34:03 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/ruby-t2s-req/issues/66 -> Issue 66 rename repository and shortname into ruby-tts-reqs? (by himorin)
06:34:16 [fantasai]
fantasai: so proposal is ruby-tts-reqs?
06:34:23 [fantasai]
... alternatively ruby-speech-req?
06:34:46 [fantasai]
Bobby: Maybe you can publish a Japanese version?
06:35:03 [fantasai]
florian: I insist we don't wait for that. If someone wants to translate later that's fine.
06:35:38 [fantasai]
Bert: -speech- is a good idea. TTS is also well-known but "speech" is easier to understand.
06:35:56 [fantasai]
POLL: a) ruby-tts-reqs b) ruby-speech-reqs
06:36:15 [xfq]
RRSAgent, make minutes
06:36:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-i18n-minutes.html xfq
06:36:21 [fantasai]
POLL: a) ruby-tts-req(s) b) ruby-speech-req(s)
06:36:34 [florian]
b
06:36:38 [Bert]
b
06:36:45 [fantasai]
b
06:36:47 [xfq]
a
06:36:51 [florian]
murata: a
06:37:38 [fantasai]
florian: Close. Let's defer to the editor.
06:38:09 [fantasai]
fantasai: I don't care particularly but seems useful to follow example of other i18n specs?
06:38:24 [fantasai]
xfq: Plural seems to be other WG documents.
06:39:02 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Murata-san to pick a shortname in consideration of these points, though nobody cares too much which one.
06:39:29 [fantasai]
xfq: Any objections to publishing this document as a First Draft Note?
06:39:34 [fantasai]
... we can always publish later
06:39:51 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Publish ruby-tts|speech-req(s) as FPDN
06:40:09 [xfq]
action: xfq to rename the repo and shortname and publish this document as a first draft note
06:40:11 [gb]
Created -> action #197 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/197
06:40:37 [fantasai]
[thanks to Murata-san for writing this document!]
06:41:14 [Bert]
I counted 87 W3C specs with a short name in *req and 34 with *reqs. But I didn't check how old or recent they are.
06:41:17 [fantasai]
"Publish early, publish often!"
06:43:52 [xfq]
Topic: [css-text-decor] Control the line height / proximity of text containing emphasis marks
06:43:57 [xfq]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/11257
06:43:57 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/11257 -> Issue 11257 [css-text-decor] Control the line height / proximity of text containing emphasis marks (by xfq) [css-text-decor-3] [css-text-decor-4] [i18n-needs-resolution] [i18n-jlreq] [i18n-clreq] [i18n-klreq] [i18n-mlreq]
06:45:58 [xfq]
https://xfq.github.io/testing/csswg-11257/
06:46:16 [fantasai]
xfq: [introduces this issue]
06:46:51 [fantasai]
Bobby: This happened in early stage of implementations
06:46:58 [fantasai]
... similar issue in Chromium
06:47:10 [fantasai]
... Only a few Japanese system fonts work well with emphasis marks to not expand the line height
06:47:13 [Bobby]
https://drive.google.com/file/d/12CDlnXiXGX-oohHC84V2BreYKjgmWguI/view?usp=sharing
06:47:31 [fantasai]
Bobby: Here I set the line height to 1.7
06:47:36 [fantasai]
... but you can see that it's expanded to about 2
06:47:56 [fantasai]
... I filed a bug, but couldn't find the problem
06:48:03 [fantasai]
... I tried to see if it dpends on the codepoint
06:48:29 [fantasai]
... Seems to depend on the font
06:48:55 [florian]
q?
06:48:57 [florian]
q-
06:49:02 [xfq]
ack fantasai
06:49:02 [Zakim]
fantasai, you wanted to comment on the spec
06:49:25 [xfq]
fantasai: for ruby, the impact of ruby on the text is supposed to be that half of the height of the ruby contributes to the line height
06:49:45 [xfq]
... half from the top line, half from the bottom line
06:50:00 [xfq]
... if the ruby fits within that space then it doesn't increase the height of the line
06:50:18 [xfq]
... if not, than it will @@4
06:50:26 [xfq]
... emphasis marks follow the same rule
06:50:44 [xfq]
... if you have a line height of 1.5 or higher there should be no issues
06:51:10 [xfq]
... I wonder if this implementation is making full height rather than half of it?
06:52:26 [fantasai]
... or if the implementation is applying the line-height where it shouldn't?
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06:54:35 [Bobby]
https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=239693
06:55:22 [xfq]
https://xfq.github.io/testing/csswg-11257/
06:55:56 [xfq]
fantasai: the dots are too far away from the characters
06:56:10 [xfq]
https://www.w3.org/TR/clreq/#id84
06:58:26 [xfq]
fantasai: we should follow up on this
06:58:35 [xfq]
... I think we should treat this as an impl bug
06:59:11 [Bobby]
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1oJL3yc-lNsJk1XW0zkqvWfGQufefeTPY&usp=drive_fs
06:59:27 [Bobby]
Same book on Firefox 144.02
07:03:07 [xfq]
RRSAgent, make minutes
07:03:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-i18n-minutes.html xfq
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