01:06:18 RRSAgent has joined #i18n 01:06:22 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-i18n-irc 01:06:35 Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Day 2 - TPAC 2025 01:06:55 present+ r12a, martin, eemeli, Bert, xfq, fantasai, florian 01:07:02 chair: xfq 01:07:08 scribe+ xfq 01:07:12 RRSAgent, make minutes 01:07:13 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-i18n-minutes.html xfq 01:07:35 RRSAgent, make log public 01:07:38 RRSAgent, make minutes 01:07:39 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-i18n-minutes.html xfq 01:09:03 berlysia has joined #i18n 01:09:24 saji has joined #i18n 01:10:06 https://w3c.github.io/i18n-activity/reviews/#html-ruby-extensions 01:10:10 Topic: Ruby 01:10:16 scribe+ xfq 01:10:41 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue%20state%3Aopen%20label%3As%3Ahtml-ruby-extensions 01:10:50 https://github.com/w3c/html-ruby/issues/22 01:10:51 https://github.com/w3c/html-ruby/issues/22 -> Issue 22 Remove example 8 figure 3 to avoid canonicalising a not-yet-established approach (by r12a) [i18n-needs-resolution] [Needs: Edits] [i18n-clreq] [i18n-jlreq] [i18n-mlreq] 01:11:07 Bobby has joined #i18n 01:11:09 fantasai has joined #i18n 01:11:19 https://github.com/w3c/html-ruby/issues/17 01:11:19 https://github.com/w3c/html-ruby/issues/17 -> Issue 17 Add rb>rt>rb>rt example code to Example 1 (by r12a) [i18n-needs-resolution] [i18n-clreq] [i18n-jlreq] [i18n-mlreq] 01:12:30 present+ Emil 01:12:36 RRSAgent, make minutes 01:12:39 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-i18n-minutes.html xfq 01:12:52 [florian introduces issue #17] 01:12:53 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/17 -> CLOSED Action 17 Publish fpwd of korean gap analysis (on xfq) due 18 Jul 2023 01:13:18 r12a: my pref is have an rb opening and an rt opening 01:13:54 ... we're asserting that an rb tag is a useful thing to have 01:15:13 ... you could say here we're going to mark up a simple piece of two words with ruby 01:15:21 ... and here are a few ways to do that 01:15:41 florian: the rest of the spec does that 01:15:58 r12a: my pref is always to front-load stuff and then explain it afterwards 01:16:41 fantasai: I'm happy to compromise on including the rb tag 01:16:55 ... i'd rather not include all the patterns at this point 01:17:07 ... there is a deliberate ordering in here 01:17:20 ... growing in complexities in order to not overwhelm people initially 01:18:17 florian: I'll write it in the issue 01:18:35 Subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/html-ruby/issues/22 01:18:36 s|https://github.com/w3c/html-ruby/issues/22|-> Issue 22 Remove example 8 figure 3 to avoid canonicalising a not-yet-established approach (by r12a) [i18n-needs-resolution] [Needs: Edits] [i18n-clreq] [i18n-jlreq] [i18n-mlreq] https://github.com/w3c/html-ruby/issues/22 01:19:03 https://www.w3.org/TR/html-ruby-extensions/#jukugo-ruby 01:20:19 florian: this is an example discussing jukugo ruby 01:20:30 [florian introduces the issue] 01:20:39 florian: in the illustrations I'm using here 01:20:48 github: https://github.com/w3c/html-ruby/issues/22 01:20:54 ... inside example 8 01:21:16 ... if you go down there's a figure 1, 2, 3 01:21:32 ... show at various size ratios between the base character and the annotation characters 01:21:43 ... various ways you might want to lay out things in 01:22:09 ... we need to have enough info in the spec to be able to distinguish the things 01:22:21 ... maybe the layout chosen by CSS will be this one, maybe not 01:22:43 ... if we didn't have that, the whole notion of jukugo ruby becomes irrelevant 01:23:06 ... the strength of the tabular markup is it allows @@1 01:23:07 felipeerias has joined #i18n 01:23:22 r12a: add some of that to the spec would be good 01:24:10 florian: I'll make an editorial change to this example to illustrate what i said, rather than what it seems to be saying 01:24:20 ... afaik this is the i18n feedback on this 01:24:35 ... privacy, and TAG gave thumbs up 01:24:48 ... security and a11y did not get back to us and they've had 1.5 years 01:24:59 ... I suspect we'll assume they're happy 01:25:16 ... how do you read it on the screen reader 01:25:22 ... this is a very important topic 01:25:28 ... i would like to tackle it later 01:27:39 fantasai: maybe you can say that tts, copy & past, findability is interesting but undefined 01:27:45 s/past/paste 01:28:51 note that we have a document on find-in-page: https://www.w3.org/TR/string-search/ 01:29:20 and an open issue related to ruby: https://github.com/w3c/string-search/issues/22 01:29:21 https://github.com/w3c/string-search/issues/22 -> Issue 22 Non-body text (by xfq) 01:30:15 fantasai: you shouldn't have worse usability of a page by adding annotations to it 01:30:29 ... find needs to be able to find things while ignoring the annotations 01:30:30 scribe+ fantasai 01:37:22 felipeerias has joined #i18n 01:41:02 [discussing what to discuss] 01:42:15 [florian recaps the situation with the logical properties stuff] 01:42:38 Topic: WCAG Debrief 01:42:49 r12a: The WCAG folks are trying to classify questions of readability 01:43:00 ... whether general readability or related to accessibility issues 01:43:06 ... e.g. inter-line gaps, justification, etc. 01:43:16 ... They're trying to do that in WCAG 3 01:43:25 Minutes of the breakout session: https://www.w3.org/2025/11/10-wcag2-non-latin-minutes.html 01:43:34 ... In WCAG 2, say that if you increase the font size etc. it shouldn't break the display 01:43:44 ... but don't say that you should use a particular minimum size or whatever 01:43:49 ... They want to say those specific things 01:44:10 ... We're pushing for them to not specify for English and then leave other languages out 01:44:23 ... They've started a group to work on this problem very slowly 01:44:35 ... Started with a table they call "guard rail" recommendations. 01:44:45 ... They have Chinese, Arabic, Latin, Hindi, and Russian 01:45:20 ... This doesn't touch SE Asian languages, and has other problems. 01:45:38 ... The approach is to say, "look for script similar to your script" but this isn't working. 01:45:53 ... They don't know where to find the information, so we assume that whatever happens, this will be a set of information that grows over time 01:46:03 ... as they find experts who can provide information about accessibility-related readability 01:46:12 ... So we were pushing them to create a registry or set of documents or whatever outside the main core text 01:46:17 Bobby has joined #i18n 01:46:25 ... that has all the details about what to do to ensure readability for a given script 01:46:39 ... There may be groups of scripts that behave similarly, and could group together 01:46:45 ... That's the summary 01:46:58 q+ 01:47:16 r12a: They also raised the issue of "ruby" and how you can use it for pronunciation of differnet lnaguages 01:47:28 ... but I emphasized that it's primarily designed for East Asian languages 01:47:42 florian: I think I subtly disagree with you on this one. 01:47:51 ... at this stage, might be the right way to say it 01:48:00 ... but advice to spec authors and implementers should be what you said 01:48:09 ack florian 01:48:09 ... but if we design and implement ruby for its intended use cases 01:48:26 ... but it turns out to be useful for other scripts, then it is perfectly fine to use it for other languages 01:48:38 r12a: People want to use it for glossing, which it's not well-adapted for 01:48:43 duerst has joined #i18n 01:48:49 ... I fear they'll stop work on ruby until they figure that out 01:48:54 ... but I want to get ruby finished for the CJK market 01:49:20 ... But rather than just jumping on ruby bnadwagon, if it's about pronunciation, what about SSML say-as or other ways of expressing pronunciation? 01:49:29 ... CJK does it through ruby, but not necessarily best for other languages 01:49:35 ack fantasai 01:49:41 fantasai: for rendering to audio 01:49:50 ... ruby is designed primarily rendering to visual 01:50:00 ... there's a little bit of a distinction here 01:50:36 r12a: you can also have the pronunciation between slashes/brackets etc. 01:50:52 ... you can always markup span 01:50:56 r12a: Other thing is, the accessibility folks want to introduce a symbolic language (Bliss symbols) 01:51:09 florian: It's Chinese ideographs :) 01:51:11 s/markup span/a markup span with a class 01:51:26 r12a: They're not doing a fully system at the moment, but they want to attach pictures to bits of text (like nouns) 01:51:33 ... won't have semantics or syntax or stuff like that 01:51:46 ... but again, looking at ruby 01:51:59 ... and we point out, well what if ruby is already being used for its intended purpose? 01:52:00 https://w3c.github.io/ruby-t2s-req/ 01:52:13 ... so we have this constant problem with ruby appearing to be a panacea ... 01:52:20 florian: Playing devil's advocate ... 01:52:31 ... Though I agree that ruby is targetted at CJK and should be designed for it 01:52:37 ... we have somewhat struggled with adoption of it 01:52:45 ... if it was made useful for more things, maybe it helps us get there? 01:52:50 r12a: maybe not 01:53:02 florian: Maybe not, but sometimes when you have more people pushing for a feature it helps adoption 01:53:22 duerst: Accessibility use case isn't big enough to have that effect 01:54:11 q? 01:54:36 xfq: Did they discuss next steps? 01:54:39 r12a: Not really 01:54:46 q+ 01:54:46 xfq: How do we follow up? 01:55:00 ack xfq 01:55:10 r12a: There was talk about ruby specifically. Makoto was there, talked about his topics. 01:55:13 present+ Bobby 01:55:17 RRSAgent, make minutes 01:55:19 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-i18n-minutes.html xfq 01:55:25 ... Another topic was WCAG 2, which is not going to change 01:55:32 ... and which currently has things about increasing font size shouldn't break, but doesn't have details about readability 01:55:41 ... And then there's WCAG 3 where those things could be addressed 01:55:51 ... Unfortunately all of those things were talked about at the same time in the meeting 01:56:03 ... Mentioned that to the chair as a problem 01:56:10 ... In terms of going forward, not much to do on WCAG 2 01:56:17 ... I think Makoto will drive anything he's doing on ruby 01:56:33 ... And I think we need to keep talking with Jan about this approach and getting rid fo the gurad rails table. 01:56:43 ... But no definite plans 01:56:57 xfq: Ok, I guess we'll need to revisit this 01:57:03 q+ 01:57:10 r12a: Certainly felt like a re-run of previous conversations :) 01:57:21 ... but we might need to get more involved with Jon and ?? 01:57:56 fantasai: on removing the guardrails table and having an external reference 01:58:06 ... externalizing it seems like the right thing to do 01:58:19 ... in terms of finding the experts to provide that data 01:58:34 ... maybe the daisy consortium would be helpful 01:58:34 ... they work on very related stuff 01:58:40 ... and might have contacts 01:58:54 r12a: One issue is testing 01:59:09 ... if this is not normative text, the readability guidelines, they'r ea bit worried about whether people will actually follow those guidelines 02:00:13 fantasai: they can have a general statement that requires conformance 02:00:27 ... qualitative conformance criteria 02:00:44 ... and then these guidelines help you translate that into a specific test 02:00:52 florian: I agree 02:01:07 ... if we're talking about wcag tests 02:01:16 ... test content instead of impls 02:01:43 ... if legislation says you're not allowed to publish a government website unless it's wcag AAA or some level 02:01:47 ... it's hard to define 02:02:08 ... in javanese my line height is this much, is it a pass? 02:02:23 fantasai: you would have to make an argument that the guidelines are wrong 02:02:42 r12a: the tests we're talking about is yes I conform to AAA 02:02:52 ... and here's test to show that my content follows those 02:03:04 ... and they've tied those to normative statements 02:03:17 florian: for some languages we have the abstract requirement 02:03:36 ... for some languages we have the abstract req but not the detailed one 02:03:44 q? 02:03:47 ack fantasai 02:03:55 ack Bobby 02:03:56 Bobby: Ruby is very important for bopomofo 02:04:05 https://cmex-30.github.io/Bopomofo_on_Web/testpage/index.html 02:04:07 RRSAgent, make minutes 02:04:08 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-i18n-minutes.html xfq 02:04:15 ... I have posted the layout by font 02:04:29 https://buttaiwan.github.io/bpmfvs/ 02:04:31 ... My friend made a tool that uses ideographic variant to let you choose the different pronunciations for a single han character 02:04:52 ... [missed] 02:05:30 ... If you mark all han characters with bopomofo, the text to speech will recognize the bopomofo and spell the characters correcters 02:05:50 ... but pronunciation ruby base + ruby text, ruby base + ruby text, etc. is a real problem 02:06:02 ack Bobby 02:06:04 florian: this continues to be a known problem 02:06:18 ... but the knowledge of it being a problem is spreading 02:06:22 ... the correct solution isn't designed yet 02:06:31 ... and browsers are starting to know about it, and that might make a difference 02:06:43
02:07:11 s/coffee/coffee duration=14m 02:08:21 RRSAgent, make minutes 02:08:23 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-i18n-minutes.html xfq 02:36:18 saji has joined #i18n 02:36:37 r12a has joined #i18n 02:37:10 present+ Murata 02:37:15 berlysia has joined #i18n 02:37:36 Bobby has joined #i18n 02:39:20 Topic: DOM localization 02:39:28 minutes of today's breakout session: https://www.w3.org/2025/11/10-dom-localization-minutes.html 02:40:54 eemeli: this is the content I shared from the morning session 02:41:10 ... an extract of how we localize the browser's front end 02:41:24 ... where in the XHTML that is rendering parts of the UI 02:41:33 ... we defined a link to an external resource 02:41:39 ... a l10n resource 02:42:04 ... the idea would be to introduce something similar to the web platform 02:42:21 slideset for the breakout session: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1ON2yeocyDSVr8r0cg8ZlhgpFfsvloznq1pJqYSADJs8/edit?usp=sharing 02:42:47 eemeli: if you look at the tabctx-new-tab-open 02:43:39 ... Should we work on introducing localization as a capability of the web platform? 02:43:45 ... Is the Internationalization WG an appropriate forum for standardizing the message resource file format? 02:43:47 ... How specific to localization should the HTML capabilities be? 02:44:42 [eemeli shows what this could look like on the web] 02:45:14 eemeli: the next step arising from the discussion this morning is to propose to the WHATWG for the HTML parts of this 02:47:30 ... one required part is beyond the HTML is the file format 02:47:30 ... whether this WG is an appropriate forum to specify a message resource file format 02:47:30 atsushi has joined #i18n 02:47:30 RRSAgent, make minutes 02:47:39 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-i18n-minutes.html xfq 02:47:44 ... there's also potential for stretching to allowing for various DOM mutations 02:54:48 ... should it be focus on supporting message formatting only? 02:54:48 ... or would it be better to design it as a general purpose container for values? 02:54:48 ... there is no one solution to these problems 02:54:48 ... it's the discussions ought to take place 02:54:52 eemeli: we need to update the charter if we decide to work on it here 02:54:52 present+ Felipe 02:54:52 felipe: what's the scope of l10n? 02:54:52 present+ 02:54:52 eemeli: that is exactly the third question I have here 02:54:52 ... there is a number of different existing l10n resource formats 02:54:52 ... those could be reviewed 02:54:52 ... Java .properties file 02:54:52 ... Gettext PO files 02:54:52 ... the Fluent format 02:54:52 felipe: even if you only translate strings 02:54:52 ... it's not just a simple list of strings that get translated 02:54:52 ... do you forsee this being a single global file, or maybe one per supported language? 02:54:52 eemeli: what I would envision would be that a single physical file for a one locale 02:54:52 ... for multiple locales, you would end up with separate files 02:54:52 ... same keys, different values 02:54:52 ... HTML is unlikely the only place where such a file format would be used 02:54:52 ... like CSS 02:54:52 felipe: in CSS you could add strings before or after an element 02:54:52 RRSAgent, make minutes 02:54:53 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-i18n-minutes.html xfq 02:54:58 xfq: I think it could be incubated within this group 03:32:37 RRSAgent has joined #i18n 03:32:38 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-i18n-irc 03:32:48 RRSAgent, make minutes 03:32:49 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-i18n-minutes.html xfq 03:35:09 Topic: XML errata 03:35:09 [eemeli introduces the issue] 03:35:09 Murata: initially we tried to find all names for XML 03:35:09 ... it's too difficult for the XML WG to study every character 03:35:10 ... it's just not impossible 03:35:10 ... I know some other committees in ISO did something similar 03:35:10 ... but not very successful 03:35:11 ... unless there's a very very strong reason to disallow them 03:35:11 ... XML will allow them 03:35:11 ... I dislike this decision 03:35:12 ... but it's an sensible decision 03:35:22 RRSAgent, make minutes 03:35:23 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-i18n-minutes.html xfq 03:36:10 martin: the errata from the 4th edition to the 5th edition should be documented somewhere 03:36:22 RRSAgent, make minutes 03:36:23 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-i18n-minutes.html xfq 03:36:38 martin: XML parsers don't get changed very often 03:36:56 ... this would essentially be backward-incompatible 03:37:06 ... it would make some documents illegal 03:37:20 ... also, Murata-san says the rule now is very, very open 03:38:12 Murata: I don't have to be familari with all languages around the world 03:38:17 ... and the compatibility battle 03:39:26 eemeli: relatively high chance to use this character in localizable messages 03:40:13 martin: the issues of bidi formatting chars came up a few years ago in programming languages 03:40:24 ... they're very scared 03:40:38 ... they changed so that bidi formatting characters show up 03:40:40 ... also for github 03:41:58 eemeli: you can have invisible characters in XML 03:42:04 ... ALM is an invisible character 03:55:18 r12a has joined #i18n 04:11:26 r12a has joined #i18n 04:57:38 r12a has joined #i18n 04:58:45 r12a has joined #i18n 05:01:33 r12a has joined #i18n 05:03:03 r12a-again has joined #i18n 05:06:07 r12a_ has joined #i18n 05:11:35 Bobby has joined #i18n 05:20:10 Zakim has left #i18n 05:23:18 r12a has joined #i18n 05:25:25 Zakim has joined #i18n 05:25:30 atsushi has joined #i18n 05:31:07 Topic: Plan for the 2025-11-14 meeting with WHATWG 05:31:13 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue%20state%3Aopen%20label%3Awhatwg 05:33:11 felipeerias has joined #i18n 05:33:25 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue%20state%3Aopen%20label%3AAgenda%2BI18N%2BWHATWG 05:34:01 fantasai: I'm interested in https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1819 05:34:01 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1819 -> Issue 1819 Should dir=auto with no strong characters inherit directionality from parent or be ltr? (by w3cbot) [close?] [tracker] [s:html] [needs-attention] [i:bidi_text] [spec-type-issue] [alreq] [hlreq] [t:bidi_markup] [Agenda+I18N+WHATWG] 05:34:01 … [whatwg] 05:43:15 eemeli: I think the point 3 in https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/10097#issuecomment-2746324449 needs more thoughts 05:43:15 https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/10097 -> Issue 10097 Should dir=auto with no strong characters inherit directionality from parent or be ltr? (by dbaron) [i18n-tracker] [i18n-alreq] [i18n-hlreq] 05:43:45 fantasai: I think we should consider using weakly-directional characters (point 2) 05:43:51 RRSAgent, make minutes 05:43:52 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-i18n-minutes.html xfq 05:44:54 eemeli: my gut feeling is that it will occasionally make things right, but we will have more edge cases 05:44:58 fantasai: that makes sense to me 05:45:28 ... I have a vague feeling that introducing inheritance is to @@3 05:45:40 ... if it's empty then inherit the direction 05:45:51 ... if it's not empty the default is ltr 05:46:22 eemeli: being a user who will never experience this I have no strong opinion except point 3 05:46:44 fantasai: I'm not familar with weakly-directional characters 05:46:52 ... are they only digits? 05:46:58 s/only/only LTR/ 05:47:03 saji has joined #i18n 05:47:14 ... or do Arabic digits behave as LTR but resolve the paragraph to RTL or something? 05:52:58 eemeli: I think the Arabic-Indic numerals are weakly rtl 05:53:04 r12a: they're weakly ltr 05:53:45 fantasai: there's an advantage to be consistent with Unicode 05:55:19 ... you could say that if the box is empty then inherit the direction 05:55:27 ... if it contains content, then it's ltr 06:00:28 Topic: Proposed changes for WCAG 2.3 06:00:30 scribe+ 06:00:50 MM: [introduces himself] 06:01:33 MM: When WCAG 2.2 was created, there are some comments from CJK guys such as Kida-san, "is this only for western languages?" 06:01:48 ... Answer was "no", but WCAG2.2 at that time was completely western-centric, and still is 06:02:00 ... But some non-normative notes, and there was a formal objection 06:02:20 ... There was an outstanding issue from Kida-san, which W3C didn't notice, and created PR. So there was an FO. 06:02:37 ... But result was additional non-normative notes, like "this doesn't apply to non-Western languages" 06:03:00 ... WCAG2.2 was submitted to ISO, and Japanese were interested in having an ISO standard 06:03:20 ... AGWG said they would address the problem in WCAG3, and urged to not oppose the DIS 06:03:35 ... And now we have an international standard for WCAG2.2 06:03:52 ... So now it's time to discuss again. And we had a breakout session this morning. 06:04:08 MM: First I learned is WCAG is not HTML or EPUB only, but also PDF while it's on the Web. 06:04:41 ... So I proposed this SC for Level A: When ruby is used, the association between the ruby base and its annotations must be programmatically determinable 06:05:26 ... This applies to HTML and EPUB. But doesn't apply to PDF if accessibility 3 is not provided. 10 years ago no PDF publications provided accessibility tress for PDF, and 5 years ago Adobe started using such roles correctly; and now MSFT has also started. 06:05:41 ... So some PDF documents satisfy this SC. Though many don't. 06:05:42 RRSAgent, make minutes 06:05:44 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-i18n-minutes.html xfq 06:06:02 ... Instead they have another line of text with small characters, which is completely inaccessible. Hence Level A. 06:06:13 MMM: I will demonstrate a DAISY reader, often used in Japan. 06:07:07 ... Here we have some ruby text [in blue]. For some people, distinguishing ruby text from base text is challenging, so we need different colors. 06:07:18 ... Foreground, background, ruby text color. 06:07:23 ... Also we increased the size of the ruby 06:07:32 ... THis is important for low-vision people. 06:07:41 ... They often use non-square fonts. 06:08:03 ... This reader can have full ruby, or no ruby, or ruby at jr. high school level 06:08:09 ... It allows good controls based on demands of the user 06:08:26 ... This is possible only because we have captured the relationships properly in the HTML. 06:08:42 florian: In addition to relation of base and ruby, you also have information about the level of difficulty 06:09:08 ... Since the UA is able to add/remove ruby, it means there is some kind of standardized information about how difficult the ruby are 06:09:16 MM: This one has different documents, but we might want to standardize it 06:09:32 florian: Doing it in one document is easy. But doing it across multiple documents with a UA, is challenging 06:09:55 MM: Depends on the teaching schedule, so don't want to get into that discussion! 06:10:18 MM: This reader can change character spacing, line spacing, etc. in addition to font size. 06:10:34 MM: Anyway, having this SC is important. 06:10:51 ... Some people in AGWG suggest it should be informative. 06:11:23 MM: Let me explain what happens if we don't have this SC. Ruby will be read aloud separately. It will be a complete mess to read. 06:11:34 s/to read/to use text to speech/ 06:11:50 ... So lots of PDF documents don't have such ruby roles. 06:12:09 MM: Reason for Level A is because the document cannot be understood otherwise. 06:12:35 MM: Currently, we have ruby markup that can capture this information (though there is still some room for improvement). 06:13:01 ... PDF was horrible and is better now. Tagged PDF can perserve the info. 06:13:13 ... Hoping that accessibily trees can expose this information 06:13:48 MM: Because of comments and objections, htere were some non-normative ad-hoc notes added to other SCs, but this is not a solution. 06:14:01 ... the abstract requirement is "relationship between elements should be captured" 06:14:04 florian: Agree that's too high level 06:14:17 MM: Some accessibilty requirements depend on the writing system or content language. 06:14:29 ... goal is the same across all languages: text should be readable. 06:14:46 ... But the appropriate line length, spacing, etc. may differ. And may have requirements specific to some writing system or other, e.g. ruby or bidi or whatever 06:15:07 MM: In my experience Japanese typographers know basically nothing about accessibility. 06:15:16 ... probably true in other languages as well 06:15:23 ... even when they are otherwise very knowledgeable 06:15:44 ... when I learned from DAISY and explained to Kobayashi-sensei and Kobayashi-san, they didn't know beforehand 06:16:00 https://github.com/w3c/clreq/issues/718 -> https://github.com/w3c/clreq/issues/718 06:16:05 MM: My hope is WCAG 2.3 will introduce natural language dependency. 06:16:16 ... We say a requirement in general terms 06:16:34 ... and if we have a language-specific requirement, we say which language it applies to 06:16:41 ... But where do we stop? There are so many languages in the world. 06:17:12 ... I hate idea that WCAG 2.3 covering "first-class languages" and other languages covered in non-normative documents as "second-class languages" 06:17:25 q+ fantasai to talk about abstract requirements and concrete guidelines, as in css-text 06:17:39 ... This is what I explained in the breakout. i18nWG is supportive. Accessibility participants were mixed. 06:17:58 fantasai: what we do in the CSS spec 06:18:03 ... we have a similar issue 06:18:21 ... the behaviour of line breaking 06:18:39 ... we have very little language or writing-system specific information about line breaking 06:18:44 ... there's no specific requirements 06:18:53 ... even our ref to UAX 14 is informative 06:19:00 ... you don't have to follow it 06:19:24 ... the normative req is that you have to break the lines according to the typographic tradition of the language 06:19:46 ... for WCAG what they probably should do is the general req that the text should be readable 06:20:08 ... and then to have the details of exactly what size/line height etc. in a separate document 06:20:10 MM: Now, we can provide very specific conditions, requirements, based on western languages. 06:20:19 ... Partly because people in AGWG are western 06:20:35 ... and partly because the EU governments want these requirements, and approved the text already 06:20:39 ... This is what they said 06:21:03 ... Why specify line height or length? Because even if somebody uses UA to achieve this layout, the contents shouldn't break. 06:21:12 ... This is what they specify in WCAG. 06:21:28 ... So it doesn't say what line height, just says even if someone tweaks the line height, the content shouldn't break. 06:21:33 fantasai: That's a reasonable requirement. 06:21:45 q? 06:21:48 ack fantasai 06:21:48 fantasai, you wanted to talk about abstract requirements and concrete guidelines, as in css-text 06:22:02 florian: I don't know exactly WCAG people work with this, but I suspect that when law and regulation requires a document, they tend to be very specific, and probably point to a dated version of WCAG. 06:22:14 ... There is nothing in the W3C Process that says "when law references you, you cannot change". 06:22:27 ... So we should change if we think we need a change. 06:22:36 ... and the government can update their reference if they want to update their reference 06:23:18 MM: These people care a lot about backward-compatibility, meaning, if they produce a document that is WCAG-compliant against the latest spec, it is also conformat to older versions of WCAG. 06:23:24 ... So they strongly argue that they cannot drop any requirements. 06:23:32 ack fantasai 06:23:41 Bobby has joined #i18n 06:23:43 fantasai: is there a requirement that's problematic 06:23:53 ... or do we need to add more reqs? 06:23:59 s/that's problematic/that's problematic?/ 06:24:32 MM: For example, paragraph separation is not common in Japan. It's not taught in schools. But WCAG requires that if you add more spacing between the paragraphs, and the layout breaks, that document is non-conformant. 06:24:40 fantasai: that seems reasonable 06:25:04 ... in general, if you change the font size, line height, paragraph spacing, letter spacing, or any of these things 06:25:11 ... if you translate it to German 06:25:39 ... a well-constructed document will be able to accommodate some resonable amount of those changes 06:26:18 ... CSSWG spent a very large proportion of the time as a WG to make such auto-sizing worked incorrectly 06:26:30 ... fundamentally the web platform is designed to enable this 06:27:08 xfq: It's possible to do it this way, but authors don't always do it right. 06:27:32 Bobby has joined #i18n 06:27:38 MM: Since WCAG is referenced by regulations, needs to specify numbers. 06:28:03 Topic: Ruby Accessibility Note 06:28:19 MM: Latest ED is this, it covers a lot of cases. 06:28:29 https://w3c.github.io/ruby-t2s-req/ 06:28:35 ... This document says how documents containing ruby should be read aloud: ruby base, ruby annotation, or both 06:28:38 ... Answer is "it depends" 06:28:55 ... People want an answer! But the answer is "it depends". 06:29:01 ... Or use AI. ;) 06:29:23 ... Some analysis can detect whether a given annotation is for phonetics or not. 06:29:40 ... In that case, you can tell by relying on some natural-language processing, whether it should be read aloud or not 06:29:48 ... I woudl like to publish some version of this as a DNOTE in November. 06:29:59 ... So I have asked for some reviews from experts. 06:30:08 q+ 06:30:10 ... Biggest open issue is request for reliable mechanism 06:30:21 r12a has joined #i18n 06:30:21 fantasai: That is outside the scope of a note, yes. :) 06:30:29 xfq: But some specification in the future could specify this. 06:30:56 florian: I agree. The solution is important, that's why we work on it. But this is a problem statement, you don't need a solution to publish a problem statement. 06:31:26 florian: Notes don't need to be finished to be published. So if you have imminent changes, you can make them first. but publish this month. it is already a useful document, and it's not good to refer to an editor's draft. 06:31:36 ... so if we want to point people to it -- even if not finished -- it is best to be published. 06:31:54 ... And then you can keep working on it and republish it. 06:32:14 xfq: You only need a resolution to publish within this group 06:32:25 florian: If we think anyone other than this group should look at it, then we should publish it. 06:32:37 ... If it's so early that nobody outside this group should look at it, then it's too early. 06:32:42 ... but otherwise we should publish it. 06:32:53 xfq: We should rename the shortname first, though. 06:33:36 https://www.w3.org/TR/jlreq/ 06:33:42 Requirements for Japanese Text Layout 06:33:48 [bikeshedding] 06:34:02 https://github.com/w3c/ruby-t2s-req/issues/66 06:34:03 https://github.com/w3c/ruby-t2s-req/issues/66 -> Issue 66 rename repository and shortname into ruby-tts-reqs? (by himorin) 06:34:16 fantasai: so proposal is ruby-tts-reqs? 06:34:23 ... alternatively ruby-speech-req? 06:34:46 Bobby: Maybe you can publish a Japanese version? 06:35:03 florian: I insist we don't wait for that. If someone wants to translate later that's fine. 06:35:38 Bert: -speech- is a good idea. TTS is also well-known but "speech" is easier to understand. 06:35:56 POLL: a) ruby-tts-reqs b) ruby-speech-reqs 06:36:15 RRSAgent, make minutes 06:36:17 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-i18n-minutes.html xfq 06:36:21 POLL: a) ruby-tts-req(s) b) ruby-speech-req(s) 06:36:34 b 06:36:38 b 06:36:45 b 06:36:47 a 06:36:51 murata: a 06:37:38 florian: Close. Let's defer to the editor. 06:38:09 fantasai: I don't care particularly but seems useful to follow example of other i18n specs? 06:38:24 xfq: Plural seems to be other WG documents. 06:39:02 RESOLVED: Murata-san to pick a shortname in consideration of these points, though nobody cares too much which one. 06:39:29 xfq: Any objections to publishing this document as a First Draft Note? 06:39:34 ... we can always publish later 06:39:51 RESOLVED: Publish ruby-tts|speech-req(s) as FPDN 06:40:09 action: xfq to rename the repo and shortname and publish this document as a first draft note 06:40:11 Created -> action #197 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/197 06:40:37 [thanks to Murata-san for writing this document!] 06:41:14 I counted 87 W3C specs with a short name in *req and 34 with *reqs. But I didn't check how old or recent they are. 06:41:17 "Publish early, publish often!" 06:43:52 Topic: [css-text-decor] Control the line height / proximity of text containing emphasis marks 06:43:57 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/11257 06:43:57 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/11257 -> Issue 11257 [css-text-decor] Control the line height / proximity of text containing emphasis marks (by xfq) [css-text-decor-3] [css-text-decor-4] [i18n-needs-resolution] [i18n-jlreq] [i18n-clreq] [i18n-klreq] [i18n-mlreq] 06:45:58 https://xfq.github.io/testing/csswg-11257/ 06:46:16 xfq: [introduces this issue] 06:46:51 Bobby: This happened in early stage of implementations 06:46:58 ... similar issue in Chromium 06:47:10 ... Only a few Japanese system fonts work well with emphasis marks to not expand the line height 06:47:13 https://drive.google.com/file/d/12CDlnXiXGX-oohHC84V2BreYKjgmWguI/view?usp=sharing 06:47:31 Bobby: Here I set the line height to 1.7 06:47:36 ... but you can see that it's expanded to about 2 06:47:56 ... I filed a bug, but couldn't find the problem 06:48:03 ... I tried to see if it dpends on the codepoint 06:48:29 ... Seems to depend on the font 06:48:55 q? 06:48:57 q- 06:49:02 ack fantasai 06:49:02 fantasai, you wanted to comment on the spec 06:49:25 fantasai: for ruby, the impact of ruby on the text is supposed to be that half of the height of the ruby contributes to the line height 06:49:45 ... half from the top line, half from the bottom line 06:50:00 ... if the ruby fits within that space then it doesn't increase the height of the line 06:50:18 ... if not, than it will @@4 06:50:26 ... emphasis marks follow the same rule 06:50:44 ... if you have a line height of 1.5 or higher there should be no issues 06:51:10 ... I wonder if this implementation is making full height rather than half of it? 06:52:26 ... or if the implementation is applying the line-height where it shouldn't? 06:54:15 berlysia has joined #i18n 06:54:35 https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=239693 06:55:22 https://xfq.github.io/testing/csswg-11257/ 06:55:56 fantasai: the dots are too far away from the characters 06:56:10 https://www.w3.org/TR/clreq/#id84 06:58:26 fantasai: we should follow up on this 06:58:35 ... I think we should treat this as an impl bug 06:59:11 https://drive.google.com/open?id=1oJL3yc-lNsJk1XW0zkqvWfGQufefeTPY&usp=drive_fs 06:59:27 Same book on Firefox 144.02 07:03:07 RRSAgent, make minutes 07:03:09 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-i18n-minutes.html xfq 07:04:23 r12a has joined #i18n 07:23:05 r12a has joined #i18n 07:24:05 saji has joined #i18n 07:32:29 atsushi has joined #i18n 07:37:43 r12a has joined #i18n 07:51:13 r12a has joined #i18n 07:53:59 IrisJ has joined #i18n 07:56:34 r12a has joined #i18n 08:56:35 Zakim has left #i18n 09:24:22 r12a has joined #i18n 09:58:03 r12a has joined #i18n 10:02:41 r12a has joined #i18n 10:05:17 r12a-again has joined #i18n 11:37:28 r12a has joined #i18n 11:52:40 r12a has joined #i18n 12:25:04 r12a has joined #i18n 13:35:09 r12a has joined #i18n 15:33:08 r12a has joined #i18n 17:39:02 r12a has joined #i18n 19:49:27 r12a has joined #i18n 22:02:38 r12a has joined #i18n 23:10:46 r12a has joined #i18n 23:41:45 duerst has joined #i18n 23:47:54 r12a has joined #i18n 23:53:13 r12a has joined #i18n 23:55:48 r12a-again has joined #i18n 23:57:43 r12a_ has joined #i18n