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21:53:12 <breakout-bot> Meeting: Digital Identity Wallet Project in Taiwan: Entering the Second Year
21:53:12 <breakout-bot> Chair: Denken Chen
21:53:12 <breakout-bot> Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/tpac2025-breakouts/issues/33
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21:53:13 <breakout-bot> Zakim, clear agenda
21:53:13 <Zakim> agenda cleared
21:53:13 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Pick a scribe
21:53:14 <Zakim> agendum 1 added
21:53:14 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy
21:53:14 <Zakim> agendum 2 added
21:53:14 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Goal of this session
21:53:15 <Zakim> agendum 3 added
21:53:15 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Discussion
21:53:15 <Zakim> agendum 4 added
21:53:15 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Next steps / where discussion continues
21:53:16 <Zakim> agendum 5 added
21:53:17 <breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Adjourn / Use IRC command: Zakim, end meeting
21:53:17 <Zakim> agendum 6 added
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23:31:28 <denkeni> https://denkeni.org/W3C-TPAC-2025/Templates/Overview.html
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23:32:30 <xfq> present+
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23:32:54 <xfq> RRSAgent, make log public
23:32:58 <xfq> RRSAgent, make minutes
23:32:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-digital-wallet-taiwan-minutes.html xfq
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23:37:24 <denkeni> https://denkeni.org/W3C-TPAC-2025/Templates/Overview.html
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23:41:19 <dezell> present+ David_Ezell
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23:42:09 <naomi> denkeni: attended California's hachathon
23:42:32 <naomi> ... hosted VC workshop in Taiwan. Not a technical one but international forum
23:42:40 <naomi> ... we had it last year
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23:43:02 <naomi> ... had a number of speakers
23:43:14 <naomi> ... we would like to use it to make connections
23:43:28 <naomi> ... traditional Chinese in Madarin only for now
23:43:41 <naomi> ... EID project
23:44:11 <naomi> ... we have a natioal ID card
23:44:35 <naomi> ... having privacy and informational security concerns for now
23:44:48 <naomi> ... discussion around security EID
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23:45:07 <naomi> ... what benefits does it take? how do we treat the thread like the one where it brings to your privacy
23:45:14 <npdoty> present+
23:45:31 <naomi> ... people are in the gornment are afraid about taking to EIT
23:45:45 <naomi> ... similar to what hapened in the Swiss
23:46:06 <npdoty> the time between the failure/rejection and subsequent approval is much closer together than I would have expected
23:46:14 <naomi> ... 15.39% grows for @1
23:46:37 <naomi> ... good benefit from this town culture to have a lot more credentials from the government
23:47:01 <naomi> ... not just for digital identity of human but physical goods, identity, those kind of stuff in supply chains
23:47:09 <naomi> ... not serving for digital signatures
23:47:20 <naomi> ... it's similar to Europans cloud by the trade
23:47:25 <naomi> ... electronic signatures
23:47:43 <naomi> ... we would like to block in their business in their mysteries
23:48:01 <naomi> ... they decided not to have been through this area based on this
23:48:07 <naomi> ... it's not opening for everyone yet
23:48:15 <naomi> ... expecting to have a press release next month
23:48:32 <naomi> ... more important is that the whole project, including the wallet app would be open source
23:48:36 <naomi> ... still in progress
23:48:47 <naomi> ... TWD dimension, it's not relevant anymore
23:49:14 <naomi> ... mentioning interesting that the whole SDK is made up with filtered
23:49:26 <naomi> ... I'm typing at the river for the past decades
23:49:37 <naomi> ... weired to me to do an SDK, mobile SDK
23:49:50 <naomi> ... failed EIT
23:50:11 <naomi> ... John Hotel Company, a big company in Taiwan like NTT or AT&T
23:50:21 <naomi> ... reponsible for digital identity product purchase
23:50:29 <naomi> ... people are not the comfortable about that
23:50:52 <naomi> ... opening on the AI, the reason I decided to join the project is that at least the opponents in this specific project will be open source
23:51:16 <naomi> ... extended with the expanded through open trustees registering 3 years next year
23:51:28 <naomi> ... we have been adopting @2
23:51:48 <npdoty> does the trust list limit who can request credential presentations? or does it limit the scenarios/use cases that are acceptable for requesting digital ID?
23:51:50 <naomi> ... we have a body for BCI VP for the educational channel
23:52:00 <naomi> ... VC will have the bias binding based on theri protocols
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23:52:16 <naomi> ... we have IATSD joins to do some early related disclosure feature on it
23:52:25 <naomi> ... who has been using UP?
23:53:04 <naomi> ... interesting thing in Taiwan, having a similar culture in Japan, we developed our own software system
23:53:34 <naomi> [page 10]
23:53:48 <naomi> ... we expected to upgrade that version next year
23:53:49 <JoeAndrieu> present+
23:53:56 <naomi> ... what you need now would be open source
23:54:06 <naomi> [page 11]
23:54:24 <naomi> denkeni: we implemented this method with just the key for now
23:54:40 <naomi> ... basically use a needs to be the figures in the slide
23:54:54 <naomi> ... European people might have required as well
23:55:31 <naomi> ... you can show your whole wallet by your phone, and there will b no running agents or holder service
23:55:42 <naomi> ... that doesn't mean you cannnot do it your own site
23:55:52 <npdoty> does that mean the user can't choose their own wallet software? or backup their IDs or move them to other devices?
23:56:05 <naomi> ... at least for the publishers one, they are doing pretty conservative way at this time
23:56:23 <naomi> ... if you are from the crypto world, we usually use the word non-trustorial
23:56:42 <naomi> ... we are collaborating with people academias and Etherium foundation
23:56:57 <npdoty> +1, linkability is a serious privacy concern with some of the existing selective disclosure standards/methods
23:57:10 <naomi> ... we aim to generate a whole proof on the phone
23:57:25 <naomi> ... similar to the high-level requirement of the EU's approach
23:57:40 <naomi> ... and we have POC from the privacy rules of the difference
23:58:00 <naomi> [showing github page on Cirocom validation of JST ES256 tokens]
23:58:16 <naomi> denkeni: I've been told that they are preparing to publish a paper on this
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23:59:05 <naomi> [page 13]
23:59:55 <naomi> denkeni: there's the trust based on issures, verifier, and we've been in discussion how to do
00:00:22 <naomi> ... I personally would like to do my build up my own body as well
00:00:46 <naomi> ... about Bhutan
00:00:58 <naomi> ... Putin has adopted experience for their national identity as well
00:01:10 <naomi> .. they tend to be on the main net
00:01:50 <naomi> [page 14]
00:02:05 <naomi> ... still adopted in main area. 3 kind of specs
00:02:25 <npdoty> I really liked to hear skepticism about the government's app and the excitement about building your own
00:03:38 <naomi> ... 1 from ISO, 2 from US, European people has @3
00:03:38 <naomi> ... some proofs can doing online identification
00:03:38 <naomi> ... we do not expect @4
00:03:38 <naomi> ... banking people trying to solve authentication issues
00:04:01 <naomi> ... anti-froud
00:05:44 <naomi> ... to use driving system, etc
00:05:44 <naomi> ... what they have been doing to get assuarance thru credentials
00:05:44 <naomi> [page 15]
00:05:44 <naomi> denkeni: we see W3C standards, OpenID, IETF, and adopting ISO standards
00:05:50 <naomi> ... officals aware that we should have selling @4
00:05:58 <naomi> ... many countries adopting ISO standards
00:06:00 <npdoty> https://nophonehome.com
00:06:09 <naomi> ... like Australia, Newzealand
00:06:21 <naomi> ... in California, drivers license
00:06:28 <npdoty> (the speaker referred to the concerns and controversy about "phoning home")
00:06:32 <naomi> ... government implements both
00:06:59 <naomi> ... when doing verify ISO standards, we implement @5 issues
00:07:32 <naomi> ... phone is interactive thru verifier
00:07:32 <npdoty> would do local retrieval only, not support server retrieval even if supporting the ISO standards
00:08:10 <naomi> ... promising system by Google
00:08:30 <naomi> ... not going to @7
00:09:06 <naomi> [page 16]
00:09:13 <naomi> denkeni:
00:09:45 <naomi> denkeni: Omniphones ecosystem, we retrieved that the relocation list
00:09:56 <naomi> ... the status list of the credenials
00:10:12 <naomi> ... they were concerned about the cost due to the issuers they have already no business model on it
00:10:21 <naomi> ... they have to offer that relocation list for free
00:11:04 <naomi> ... the phone service in Taiwan is all real name-based
00:11:14 <naomi> ... you can eventually get the information from the telecom company
00:11:39 <naomi> ... hosted by MODA
00:11:43 <naomi> ... facing some struggles
00:11:51 <naomi> ... what's vendors to choose
00:12:02 <naomi> ... there's possibility of HOng Kong issues on it
00:12:41 <naomi> ... important thing is to have real-time checking on the chart list
00:12:58 <naomi> ... I'm already thinking is that the trustees might have to be hosted
00:13:12 <naomi> ... by third-party organization in the society, and they can be funded by the government
00:13:26 <naomi> ... we have launcehd that sandbox
00:13:34 <naomi> ... bit complicated to use that term
00:13:55 <naomi> [Denken is showing the service]
00:14:13 <naomi> denkeni: we have testing version on it
00:14:27 <npdoty> I wonder if the trust list could be handled by signing statements that are distributed to the verifiers on the list, rather than maintaining a centralized list that's API-accessible
00:14:48 <naomi> [Denken is showing how to input information]
00:15:15 <naomi> ... for the insurance side, once you complet the filling of the present information, you'll get this QR code
00:15:22 <naomi> ... the code is popular
00:15:34 <npdoty> or if it could be signed and then distributed by many parties, rather than a single party
00:15:37 <naomi> ... once you get it, you can just open it
00:16:57 <naomi> ... you can decide what to share, what information to share with the verifier
00:17:26 <naomi> ... if you are interested more, you can see from our website
00:17:34 <naomi> ... wallet.gov.tw
00:18:12 <naomi> ... we have automatic account to allocate for our own citizens numbers
00:18:23 <naomi> ... but do not do their phone number identification
00:18:28 <naomi> ... other countries, we will have to apply for this with email
00:18:46 <naomi> ... we will create this because there are some orgs we've been touched to apply for this
00:19:13 <npdoty> q+ to ask about policies for trust list and how they are distributed
00:19:22 <naomi> manu: Zero-knowledge proof
00:19:29 <naomi> ... have you looked into any of the BDS?
00:19:51 <naomi> denkeni: we had early tried to implement it
00:20:10 <npdoty> s/BDS/BBS/
00:20:45 <naomi> ... having experienced resource for this big project
00:20:58 <JoeAndrieu> q+ ro ask about holder retrieval of the bitsting statuslist
00:21:05 <naomi> ... one of the debates on the biggest adoption is that they're using a crops that is not supported by the hardware
00:21:17 <JoeAndrieu> [09:20] q+ to ask about holder retrieval of the bitsting statuslist
00:21:37 <naomi> ... I think it's still possible to deply that later stage
00:21:46 <naomi> ... we started to talk with Europena people
00:21:52 <xfq> q+ JoeAndrieu to ask about holder retrieval of the bitsting statuslist
00:22:17 <naomi> Martin: do you have some potential use cases in the private sector?
00:22:46 <naomi> denkeni: our early WG, we had showcases
00:23:13 <naomi> ... to make the whole project is that well established, we'll begin production
00:23:23 <naomi> ... we have telecom VC for parcel pickup
00:23:45 <naomi> ... Amazon is not popular here but we use convenience store
00:24:15 <naomi> ... to pick up items
00:24:46 <naomi> ... getting your last 3 digits of your phone numbers and take a look at any of your ID card
00:25:01 <naomi> ... for a telecom company, they are already got your tel number
00:25:37 <naomi> ... purchase received VC, you can just get the monitors without revealing any onf your personal information
00:25:58 <naomi> ... about diploma
00:26:08 <naomi> ... a real implementation on our platform already
00:26:22 <naomi> ... Sony has been doing student ID already
00:26:41 <naomi> ... government needs some achievement to show to their
00:27:07 <naomi> @8@: are there any modalities that a third-party wallet would need to?
00:27:39 <naomi> denkeni: compare to European approach today, establish all the laws before really going through in the moment
00:27:48 <JoeAndrieu> q?
00:27:52 <naomi> ... we started the broadestthings and think about the regulation data
00:28:14 <naomi> .... simply because the particular reason we have two-party systems similar to the US
00:28:30 <naomi> ... they can build it in their own wallet
00:28:59 <naomi> ... we are focusing on buiding the whole senario
00:29:31 <naomi> npdoty: tx for the presetnation. curious about the trust list
00:29:38 <naomi> ... policy is in place for the evaluating which verifiers will be
00:29:44 <naomi> ... approved for the trust list
00:29:51 <naomi> ... how that info might be distributed
00:30:14 <naomi> ... what plicy you are using for evaluating verifiers whether they should be on the trust list?
00:30:28 <naomi> denkeni: there has to be
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00:30:34 <naomi> ... both sides to be trusted, they have to create their own data on it
00:30:57 <naomi> ... we requre them to authorize that with their PI card and get into a system
00:31:34 <naomi> ... the info of the legal entity, but should also included
00:31:49 <naomi> ... what data would I be requested?
00:32:09 <naomi> ... once you have asked the verifier to pre-fill the in @10
00:32:22 <naomi> ... we haven't done it yet
00:32:31 <naomi> ... we are piloting some selective partners
00:33:08 <naomi> npdoty: absolutely right about data minimization about having to pre-commit to what fields are required
00:33:15 <naomi> q?
00:33:23 <npdoty> q-
00:33:24 <naomi> ack np
00:33:53 <npdoty> like a stapled status list value that's submitted along with the presentation?
00:34:09 <naomi> denkeni: tx for coming
00:34:19 <naomi> rrsagent, please draft a minutes
00:34:19 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'please draft a minutes', naomi.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
00:35:29 <naomi> rrsagent, please draft minutes
00:35:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-digital-wallet-taiwan-minutes.html naomi
00:39:06 <naomi> present+ Tony_Nadalin, Elane_Wooton, Manu_Sporny, David_Ezell, Akira_Nagaoki, Darius_Kazemi, Hideaki_Furukawa, Kazue_Sako, Fuqiao_Xue, Marian_Harback, Shunji_Otsuka, Paul_Ziv, Toru_Maruhashi, Fershad_Irani, Yasushi_Minoya, Rene_Leveille, Will_Abrimson, Nishant_Koushik, Jay_Kishigami, Osamu_Nakamura, Martin_Alvarez_Espinar
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00:53:41 <naomi> present+ Denken_Chen, naomi
00:53:48 <naomi> rrsagent, bye
00:53:48 <RRSAgent> I see no action items