00:52:26 RRSAgent has joined #apa 00:52:30 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-apa-irc 00:52:30 inviting RRSAgent 00:52:30 RRSAgent, make logs Public 00:52:31 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), matatk 00:52:40 meeting: APA TPAC Tuesday (session 1) 00:52:50 Eric_hind3 has joined #apa 00:53:05 Fazio has joined #apa 00:53:07 Present+ 00:53:17 present+ 00:53:22 present+ 00:53:26 present+ 00:53:32 chiace has joined #apa 00:53:39 present+ Mike 00:53:43 Agenda for today's first session: https://github.com/w3c/apa/issues/357 00:53:46 present+ Chiara 00:54:04 present+ Janina 00:54:35 Neha has joined #apa 00:54:38 present+ 00:57:59 mike_beganyi has joined #apa 00:58:19 https://raw.githack.com/w3c/apa/main/presentations/2025/TPAC/building-it-in/index.html 00:58:22 present+ 00:58:34 tidoust has left #apa 01:04:32 janina0 has joined #apa 01:08:20 q? 01:08:59 subtopic: HR process for reviewers 01:09:02 Any thoughts on what you as reviewers need documented/done in the review process? (Existing docs on the wiki) 01:09:10 https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Horizontal_Review 01:13:39 q+ 01:13:47 scribe+ 01:14:15 Neha: Can we have some kind of use cases/examples of issues raised, and how to track them? Which repo will it be tracked under? Could help newcomers understand. 01:14:57 q+ 01:15:13 Scribe+ 01:16:13 Mat: Thought I had it documented, will follow up and get it done 01:16:15 q+ 01:16:17 ack mike_beganyi 01:16:44 Mike: A mock issue with steps of how it looks i github .. 01:17:07 ack Neha 01:17:14 ack chiace 01:17:56 q+ 01:18:23 q+ Helix Opportunity has a GitHub Classroom account we can create this sample there 01:20:47 q? 01:20:49 scribe+ 01:21:10 ack Neha 01:21:35 Neha: We newcomers could make an FAQ 01:21:57 ... with respective links to the answers to the questions such as which issues are assigned to us. 01:22:17 matatk: Wonderful! 01:23:06 janina1 has joined #apa 01:23:14 q? 01:23:49 scribe+ 01:24:01 Fazio: Helix Opportunity created a GitHub classroom account, which is a new service. We could create an assignment that steps people through the process. 01:24:25 fazio: We integrated github plugin with Helixopp.institute 01:24:37 Fazio: It can be useful for learning purpose 01:26:59 q? 01:27:49 subtopic: Possibility of more asynchronous working? 01:27:57 Lisa has joined #apa 01:28:52 matatk: we should focus on comments added as we assume that we have answered all FAQ 01:30:02 matatk: We use time offline to review everything and discuss blockers during the calls 01:30:22 present+ 01:30:34 watanabe has joined #apa 01:31:37 q+ 01:31:38 q+ 01:32:07 matatk: Thought on how useful agendas are, and possibilities of async work. 01:32:11 q? 01:32:18 ack Neha 01:32:54 Neha: We can do more async work. Can use the comments section in issues before the call. People can assign themselves. Can discuss blockers during the call to save time. 01:33:07 q? 01:33:10 ack chiace 01:33:50 mike_beganyi has joined #apa 01:33:53 chiace: To save time yes but we can work offline 01:33:57 chiace: This is a good point. I am in a few other WGs and sometimes we work together during the session, but I think it takes a long time. Can take an hour to modify a few sentences. It's meaningful that you understand deeply what's going on but it's also good to be able to work offline, and discuss blockers on the call. 01:34:30 ... when discussing together you can get to a meaningful solution, as everyone has a different perspective. but takes longer 01:34:31 +1 01:34:32 q? 01:34:40 q+ 01:36:09 matatk: the concern that I have is people who are reviewing specs can come up with a nuse case andthese things should be discussed during calls. There is a risk working asynchormously but worth trying. 01:37:18 q+ 01:37:49 q? 01:37:54 q? 01:37:58 ack mike_beganyi 01:38:27 mike_beganyi: opportunity for people who really want to do meaningful contribution 01:39:28 mike_beganyi: It does not have to asynchrous completely but a hybrid model 01:39:38 mike_beganyi: being in pairs is great 01:39:50 ack mike_beganyi 01:40:48 Q+ 01:41:03 ack janina 01:41:39 +1,000 to Janina - *everyone* has great things to contribute 01:42:39 janina1: we are trying to save time, everyone can contribute, key in asyn work model is to talk about concerns and to make familarize with issue and how to work together 01:42:45 q? 01:42:53 janina1: .. come prepared 01:42:58 ack Lisa 01:42:58 +1 to Janina 01:44:04 Lisa: I can not communicate via github. I can go through an issue but communication is a problem 01:44:37 q+ 01:44:43 Lisa: Names for issue need to be accessible not just the number but some meaningful names 01:45:50 and cant comunicate via github 01:46:49 q+ 01:47:22 q+ 01:47:29 matatk: we can have someone to work on congnitive accessibility of github platform 01:50:26 q+ 01:50:37 ack matatk 01:50:46 Lisa: We can ask this on COGA task, we can use google docs but is can not be accessible for everyone. Email is the best to get hold of me. There can be a redundancy 01:51:36 Lisa: Notification email can be useful as well 01:52:27 matatk: spreadsheet is a good way to track and follow up through the issue 01:52:30 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Ou0f7XCc5nRLhZD462OP5DA-NHqql2YSC8__lncIuxQ/edit?gid=782561551#gid=782561551 01:52:35 q= 01:52:38 q? 01:52:40 q= 01:52:44 ack daniel-mac 01:52:46 ack Fazio 01:52:48 ack jan 01:52:49 reviewed once a month (first monday) 01:53:11 q? 01:53:16 ack chiace 01:54:55 github training for coga we made https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Github_for_members, https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Github_for_editors 01:57:19 matatk: Outside APA communication works well with github 02:00:23 In the next session (later on) they are talking about about Agentic AI and Accessibiity: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/091a2581-034b-4afa-8ddc-91155bd4d710/ 02:24:58 Lisa has joined #apa 02:29:23 janina0_ has joined #apa 02:33:27 wendyreid has joined #apa 02:33:48 gpellegrino has joined #apa 02:36:13 matatk has joined #apa 02:36:15 q? 02:36:20 zakim, who's here? 02:36:20 Present: janina, Fazio, matatk, Roy_Ruoxi, Mike, Chiara, Neha, mike_beganyi, Lisa 02:36:22 On IRC I see matatk, gpellegrino, wendyreid, janina0, Lisa, Eric_hind3, RRSAgent, Zakim, masonf, spectranaut_, Adam_Page, jamesn, nigel, bkardell, daniel-mac, hober, astearns, 02:36:22 ... frehner, alice, jcraig, anssik, gb, chrishtr, hdv, Roy_Ruoxi, jyasskin, vmpstr, slightlyoff, Rachael, alastairc 02:36:29 zakim, end meeting 02:36:29 As of this point the attendees have been janina, Fazio, matatk, Roy_Ruoxi, Mike, Chiara, Neha, mike_beganyi, Lisa 02:36:29 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 02:36:30 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-apa-minutes.html Zakim 02:36:37 I am happy to have been of service, matatk; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 02:36:37 Zakim has left #apa 05:20:26 RRSAgent has joined #apa 05:20:26 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-apa-irc 05:20:27 RRSAgent, make logs Public 05:20:29 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), matatk 05:20:37 meeting: APA Tuesday session 2 05:21:22 Adam_Page has joined #apa 05:22:12 present+ 05:22:19 tamsin0 has joined #apa 05:22:36 present+ 05:22:37 Fazio has joined #apa 05:22:42 chiace has joined #apa 05:22:48 Remi has joined #apa 05:22:50 present+ 05:22:52 present+ Chiara 05:23:12 Neha has joined #apa 05:23:19 present+ 05:23:58 zakim, who's here 05:23:58 matatk, you need to end that query with '?' 05:24:08 zakim, who's here? 05:24:08 Present: matatk, JenStrickland, Fazio, Chiara, Neha 05:24:10 On IRC I see Neha, Remi, chiace, Fazio, tamsin0, Adam_Page, RRSAgent, Zakim, JenStrickland, matatk, nigel, daniel-mac, Lisa, gpellegrino, wendyreid, masonf, spectranaut_, jamesn, 05:24:10 ... bkardell, hober, astearns, frehner, alice, jcraig, anssik, gb, chrishtr, hdv, Roy_Ruoxi, jyasskin, vmpstr, slightlyoff, Rachael, alastairc 05:24:10 present+ 05:24:38 topic: Overview 05:24:40 https://github.com/w3c/apa/issues/358 05:24:47 rrsagent, make minutes 05:24:48 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-apa-minutes.html matatk 05:25:35 janina1 has joined #apa 05:25:44 present+ 05:27:03 present+ 05:27:23 subtopic: Next steps on Maturity Model; Support on responding to contributions 05:28:38 stepping away for a min 05:28:55 scribe+ 05:28:58 mike_beganyi has joined #apa 05:29:05 present+ 05:30:20 present+ 05:30:43 matatk Maturity model, plans future versions of the documents 05:31:02 open discussion 05:32:44 matatk Background we published, people are using it. Few feedbacks to be addressed. Challenge is that occured were in the communication with the people who posted the issues. 05:35:23 janina1 bring forwad some documents they are going to run through a CFC process in APA 05:36:01 matatk 2 parts: 1st what do we actually want to do with maturity model 05:36:06 q+ 05:36:27 ack Fazio 05:36:40 matatk 2nd a bit more general, gather any particular accessibility barriers 05:36:58 q+ 05:37:08 Q+ 05:37:30 Fazio create, based on the comparison between the groups, create a protocol 05:37:58 Fazio suggested a protocol timeline for responses 05:39:46 matatk we tend to leave issues until we get the person who raised the issue till they seemed satisfied. We can try to get a timeframe expectations as Fazio suggested. Just at the end of the process, not for all 05:40:36 matatk when somebody files an issue, there is a few different possibilities. Or more than this, like in which case we need to come back to them. 05:41:02 another option is that we decide we accept the feedback 05:41:54 matatk we can decide to make a change to the pull request. It would involve making a full request 05:42:29 q? 05:42:30 We can give the person who raised the issue of the link to the discussion. 05:43:04 Fazio it is self explanatory. the group decide what we want and the reason, then we agree 05:43:15 janina1, Fazio got an important point 05:44:22 q+ 05:44:33 matatk we need to be ready for this eventuality, and if we get to that stage and the task force and then move. Person given feedback because they feel they have been heard, we need to be prepared for that 05:45:06 Fazio we should write everything in a protocol, we can have in a page a process documente, we should be aware of... 05:45:19 ack janina 05:45:54 q+ 05:46:42 janina1 all of is absolutely critical but not sufficient. There is some assumptions. I f we really thought that we could do all of this asynchronously, it would be. 05:48:59 janina1 People have very strong opinions that come up, she doesn't believe that we need a process that mediates between them. we need to develop them. It needs to be a W3C process solution . The decision policy we have, an PA, id an outgrowth of HTML decision policy 05:49:56 janina1 The fancy process happended because there were disagreements 05:51:18 q? 05:51:19 janina1Normative document preparation and the communication that goes through. Got consensus around W3C. 05:51:24 ack Lisa 05:52:55 s/janina1Nor/janina1: Nor/ 05:53:10 Lisa GitHub is not accessible for COGA. Just a few people can menage comments and discussions being coded 05:53:41 Lisa only 25% of people in COGA are comfortable in using COGA 05:54:03 Lisa *only 25% of people in COGA are comfortable in using GitHub 05:55:46 Lisa People inside of W3C have barriers inside W3C, It will be limiting in the partecipation and consensus. It is a practical problem. They also made a e-mail list for commenting. Significant feedback from that. 05:56:35 q? 05:56:36 Lisa what they also do is using Google Docs, redundancy of docs, process is just ridiculous 05:56:38 ack JenStrickland 05:58:08 mike_beganyi has joined #apa 06:00:04 JenStrickland people feeling hurt is big deal as you were talking. the dynamics of W3C's shutdown' people. We need a protocol to let people learn how to listen, ask question, be curious, kind to find a process, a solution, more truly inclusive. As a global institution we have a variety of cultures, genders, a variety of... we need to figure out 06:00:04 how to truly democratize that. We need to documenting social clues, trying to be as cristal as we can, so people can feel heard 06:01:04 "people feeling hurt" s/b "people feeling heard" 06:02:29 We've had similar issues in the Sustainable Web Interest Group with new invited experts, they are struggling to participate in the W3C GitHub. 06:02:45 matatk close the topic before moving on to the next agenda. The AB is looking for advice on the process and this isn't what they expected, but they asked. 06:02:45 They need to hear it, so he would try and do whatever he can to encourage 06:04:41 matatk Tag design reviews, issues with comments in GitHub, joining in a call they fix the discussion and misunderstanding. Reopen some issues, there will be a 2.0 at some point, we need a first 1.1 first draft. 06:07:42 q+ 06:08:02 Fazio there are some misunderstanding, he doesn't think we need to change anything in the process. the journey in is mind is everything we make a 1.1. first draft. this assessment tool that we're talking about putting together until we get that. To statement status very soon, this is the progress. 1.1 for sure, maybe 1.2. W3C statement status, 06:08:02 we are going to explore more applications. Other groups like sustainability are using it. That should be a game plan. It helps us embed our work 06:08:10 q? 06:08:14 ack matatk 06:08:20 matatk, Fazio we are going to support your vision 06:08:41 +1 need to get to issue papers , lol 06:08:49 q? 06:08:53 ack JenStrickland 06:08:56 mike_beganyi has joined #apa 06:09:01 rrsagent, make minutes 06:09:02 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-apa-minutes.html matatk 06:09:14 janina1 she loves about the goal of W3C Statement 06:10:08 tamsin9 has joined #apa 06:10:37 JenStrickland there are other maturity models and it is going to do without reinventing the wheel 06:17:01 rrsagent, make minutes 06:17:02 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-apa-minutes.html matatk 06:17:09 topic: COGA Issue Papers 06:17:42 https://raw.githack.com/w3c/coga/research-modules-wd-1/issue-papers/index.html 06:17:42 https://raw.githack.com/w3c/coga/research-modules-wd-1/issue-papers/Conversational-Voice-Systems.html 06:17:42 https://raw.githack.com/w3c/coga/research-modules-wd-1/issue-papers/Supported-Decision-Making.html 06:17:42 https://raw.githack.com/w3c/coga/research-modules-wd-1/issue-papers/Online-Safety-and-Wellbeing.html 06:17:44 https://raw.githack.com/w3c/coga/research-modules-wd-1/issue-papers/Technology-Assisted-Indoor-Navigation-and-Wayfindings.html 06:17:44 not in: full citations, credits, debugging Always can do with more edit, more reaserch 06:19:21 matatk janina1 there are few new people in the task force, COGA wants to published as notes, APA is happy to support them, to make the content usable and successful 06:20:17 For background: Making Content Usable for People with Cognitive and Learning Disabilities: https://www.w3.org/TR/coga-usable/ 06:24:00 Lisa making content useful, it means to design it for the audience. People are looking for new solutions, or adapt. If you are a designer and you want to do more, maybe a new solution, policy making, funding allocations, or something like that for strategy as a document, it could be useful for researchers who are looking for ideas for their next. 06:24:01 We want to integrate with more plain language, we can work and integrate better together. They had an old template. 06:24:01 Could you have a different section or next issue papers, Sometimes is not testabe. https://raw.githack.com/w3c/coga/research-modules-wd-1/issue-papers/index.html#significant-contributors-to-the-research-modules 06:25:31 tamsin9 has joined #apa 06:26:46 Lisa use the direct links to go to the new versions (see before in the chat). 06:26:46 The voice systems: Alexa, but also it needs to be voicemail, as W3C specification. For like voice menu, which people are doing. Has been included also mental health disabilities, there was a huge overlap. As well anxiety or illness, not be lower with dasabilities, even if it is temporary 06:31:20 Lisa ( she is eplaining all the contents of the page) User needs, user persona, looking for solutions, best practices. They are also reviewing specifications that this is relevant for, news need. A lot of these issues that they talk about is talking decision making. it is not guardianship, user are in control. for example, someone is manically 06:31:20 depressing. They might buy a very expensive drum kit because they've decided that they want to became a famous drummer. but then afterwards the bank account is repeated. They have debt for the next three years and they realize the do not have a good sense of beat. 06:35:12 Lisa sometimes people need a supportive decision-making. So the alternative is ask for support, like a parenting control. What about a financially abusive relationship? Be gving a mechanism for financial control. Look for priniple and some proposed solutions. On supported decision making as a feature and why. Sometimes they are limiting people and 06:35:12 not support them. So, what about decision making in W3C? they tried to extend it. In public private partnerships. Organisations that kind of thing where you want participation in a public forum. 06:35:48 q? 06:35:57 q+ 06:36:48 ack next 06:36:49 Lisa safety and well being, thet tried to include algorithms, data and social media, we have them in a swift in mental health 06:38:24 Fazio In Web ML, they are looking for this kind of info, because they are trying to understand at what point is ok for an AI agent to make a determination of what it is appropriate to make a decision safe for a user 06:38:47 s/safety and well/online safety and well/ 06:38:51 rrsagent, make minutes 06:38:52 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-apa-minutes.html matatk 06:42:59 Lisa in safety and well being, talking about hackers, there is a reason if there is a lack, like cybercrime. Privacy. Social Media, mental health. The algorithm are going to show more of the kind of things you click on. So if you are a bit paranoid, you became more anxious, isolated, it can be a bit addictive, also from a sense of safety. We are 06:42:59 touching on the representation of data set it is a basic thing in smart cities and this is decision making. An app can complicate or slow down. this is why thet did some user stories 06:44:21 Q? 06:44:25 q? 06:45:11 Lisa wayfinding and orientation, for people who are problem orientating themselves inside the room or getting from one room to the bath. redirect or automatically change orientation, etc. also for the screen , new solutions and scenarios 06:45:37 matatk What are the next steps? What do need APA to do? 06:46:17 q+ to mention user needs and reviews 06:47:07 Lisa next week they will share this formally to APA. some bits are not in yet, like the course locations at the bottom. and they send it to get help for publishing. 06:47:30 janina1 asking for clarification about clear goals, title, abstract, etc 06:48:10 janina1 feedback: you can not talk to all the world for wayfinding, we need to be really specific 06:48:37 Lisa it is written in the introduction 06:48:51 janina1 there is a part on the why you wrote this paper? 06:49:17 q? 06:50:18 janina1 the content usable, the use cases are extremely important, but we need to clarify this other way. Janina wants Lisa to succeed, reason why of all the feedbacks :) 06:50:20 q+ 06:51:29 q? 06:51:53 Lisa the model paper covers safety issues, focs on users, also from crime, mental health, privacy, content usable, there are some safety issues, looking for clear advice 06:51:55 JenStrickland has joined #apa 06:52:02 present+ 06:52:31 ack me 06:52:31 matatk, you wanted to mention user needs and reviews 06:52:32 ack next 06:54:09 q? 06:55:01 matatk we want to provide user needs, to be sure that everything we provide is allign with them, so in this way we do not need to redo anything. make content usable,split it in different modules, how is that working? 06:57:08 Lisa the relationship between them, is to make the content usable, they did a lot of background readable and usable . adaptable colours, algo, increased anxiety. make it easy is a design thing. we can do a nice table to compare different options and other important info. there are som things that should be stress in making the content usable 06:57:45 Lisa content usable is going for web developers, we can have really good project to make the content more usable 06:59:44 I've created a document of 190 some odd testable statements from How To Make Content Usable 06:59:55 We're integrating it into our auditing tool 07:01:28 Lisa content usable is for people making the content usable. it should be tested , in particular for people that have disabilities. if you are looking for new ways to make your content better or safer whatever the topic is on. we've done background research, understand roadmaps, in particular for smart cities dev. What is happing today in our 07:01:28 community? maybe it is a science committee. People making strategies, or road map of where they go with their roadmaps 07:03:10 matatk I understand, though it is not because we are saying this is authoritative guidance for policymakers should be aware of. it is actually the opposite. 07:04:15 Something I really struggled with in the last few discussions here is the interrupting others and cross-talk. 07:04:18 Fazio document with around 190 testable statements from how to make content usable and is integratng it uditing tool. useful for COGA 07:24:01 daniel-mac has joined #apa 07:29:22 JenStrickland has joined #apa 07:29:33 present+ 07:32:12 Adam_Page has joined #apa 07:33:44 Neha has joined #apa 07:37:38 Agenda? 07:38:26 kevin has joined #apa 07:40:13 present+ 07:40:14 matatk meeting about orizontal review + discoverable destinations about agentic AI. we have some issues about orizonral review 07:40:20 present+ 07:40:26 Lisa has joined #apa 07:40:27 tako has joined #apa 07:44:34 matatk discussion about scheduling meetings around the Thanksgiving period. 07:44:34 Traditionally, the week after the “tea bag” event is taken off, but this year APA will still meet on 26 November, while many task forces will decide independently whether to meet that week. 07:44:34 They also noted that non-American members may still be available to work or join activities. 07:44:34 Finally, they finalized the December schedule: APA will meet during the first three weeks of December, specifically on 3, 7, and 10 December 07:45:58 JenStrickland appreciate the emails sent out because even if she doesn't read them on Mondays, she tent to search for the before APA meeting 07:47:00 Roy_Ruoxi doesn not think that getting the email on friday will change much 07:49:57 present_ Janina 07:50:04 present+ Janina 07:50:16 s/present_ Janina// 07:50:24 tamsin3 has joined #apa 07:51:39 Lionel_Wolberger has joined #APA 07:51:51 present+ 07:52:06 chiace has joined #apa 07:52:11 present+ 07:52:13 scribe+ 07:52:14 zakim, who is here? 07:52:14 Present: matatk, JenStrickland, Fazio, Chiara, Neha, tamsin, janina, mike_beganyi, Lisa, Roy_Ruoxi, Lionel_Wolberger, chiace 07:52:16 On IRC I see chiace, Lionel_Wolberger, tamsin3, tako, Lisa, kevin, Neha, Adam_Page, JenStrickland, daniel-mac, Remi, Fazio, RRSAgent, Zakim, matatk, nigel, gpellegrino, wendyreid, 07:52:16 ... masonf, spectranaut_, jamesn, bkardell, hober, astearns, frehner, alice, jcraig, anssik, gb, chrishtr, hdv, Roy_Ruoxi, jyasskin, vmpstr, slightlyoff, Rachael, alastairc 07:52:46 present+ 07:52:47 matatk: there are two charters up for a review 07:52:51 @janina matatk 07:52:51 The group discussed how to better manage and communicate meeting agendas. They confirmed that: 07:52:51 Agendas will be sent out early Monday morning (US Eastern Time) so people have time to review them before the Wednesday APA call. Participants said these emails are useful and they often search for them before meetings. 07:52:51 Calls are considered on by default, and the agenda will explicitly mark the call as “confirmed.” 07:52:53 New TR items or topics can be added later without problems, since there are usually no strict deadlines; if something new appears, they can review it the following week or with less prep time. 07:52:53 They want more review time for new TR items and charters, and will keep the agenda updated accordingly. 07:52:53 The person posting the agenda will avoid including empty items, to keep things cleaner and easier to manage. 07:54:10 q+ 07:55:52 ack me 07:57:24 matatk W3C Interest Group is useful and how it differs from a Community Group, even if groups can turn in different kind of groups. What has been done is kept the group around the table and make everything visible, chose the right thing for "you" as a need/ group. 07:57:24 An Interest Group helps bring specific stakeholders “around the table” who might not otherwise participate, which is important for topics like user needs, challenges, and best practices. 07:57:24 A Community Group is open to anyone, while an Interest Group is more like a Working Group: you generally need to be a W3C member or an invited expert to join. 07:57:24 Because of this, an Interest Group’s structure and governance are more suitable for some member organisations, and its work can be given clearer direction 07:57:59 tamsin4 has joined #apa 07:58:02 APA sessions at TPAC (and some related breakouts): https://github.com/w3c/apa/issues?q=is%3Aissue%20state%3Aopen%20label%3Atpac 07:58:16 matatk what the APA group should be aware of? based on the TPAC experience 07:58:47 https://csarven.ca/presentations/restarting-w3c-qa 07:58:54 JenStrickland Sarvin made a pres on quality assurance that can be intresting 08:00:13 matatk Servin is also on the tag, really intrested in keeping the web indipendent, also web of trust, being able to verify what people said. and he also something that APA would be intrested in 08:00:44 @janina there is a group in web space, call WaySpace 08:01:39 Lionel_Wolberger has joined #APA 08:01:45 matatk has joined #apa 08:01:47 https://a11yedge.github.io/capabilities/ 08:01:48 q+ 08:01:52 present+ 08:03:00 @janina the main thing that we should do, goinge to fix accessibility behind the source layer. the ,amdtra has always been fixed. the source in the view of this group. Published a report just over the weekend, Her with Lionel_Wolberger and some co-authors are presenting tomorrow at 10 am. They want wider conversation way as to when and how it is 08:03:00 appropriate to consider beyond source remediation. they call it post source 08:03:37 q+ 08:03:59 @lionel fortunate in the collaboration of the Information Architecture Community Group on the preparation of that report 08:04:42 ack Lionel 08:04:46 @janina make a document that is more of a note docuent, rewording some additional content 08:05:37 ack JenStrickland 08:05:37 @lionel "do not bring me spare problems. If you bring me a problem, bring me a proposed solution" mantra proposed 08:06:33 Lionel_Wolberger has joined #APA 08:06:42 JenStrickland some of us do not presume to offer a solution, we have humilty to think that we do not fully understand whatever caused the problem enough to do so 08:08:03 JenStrickland she was having a bit of hard time with the interrupting in the cross talk 08:09:59 Lionel_Wolberger has joined #APA 08:10:16 topic: Accessibility Maturity Model - next steps 08:10:34 present+ 08:12:57 matatk plan of AMM, documents and issues at high level + issue management. COGA has provided some tutorials about that to their members. being transparent and suppporting them in feeling heard + @janina w3c process policy, orientation. matatk promoting the notion that some of this need to be written 08:13:53 kevin consensus, main aspect, what does it mean and why , we should cover that 08:16:06 Fazio we can work through the issues on GitHub, with the aim of 1.1 as W3C statement, start from that and build something around it. people in WCAG3 were concerned about the improvement. yesterday has been done standard diagnostic. 1.1 fix GitHub issues 08:16:30 kevin he thinks that Fazio is a long way away from a statement 08:17:34 q+ 08:17:35 q- 08:17:41 q+ Janina 08:18:18 kevin considerations about WCAG are particularly around that. We need to afreed to kind of corpus of language and cordinate of your view 08:19:00 q+ 08:19:20 ack Janina 08:19:38 Fazio we are not COGA. we 've actually implemented an AI powered auditing tool that we believe can run these tests and come back. see the comparison and is not saying that as a document itself. 08:20:02 The plans I just laids out are in our last task force meeting minutes 08:20:03 @Janina doing things layer after layer, 08:20:21 ack JenStrickland 08:21:12 JenStrickland set a frame for how we are having discussion. we are here to hear people first, it is important to set expectations 08:22:07 matatk we should define the process that we need to adopt, after we define the process to follow 08:22:22 I don't like the ay I am talked to about this work 08:22:33 Don't feel supported or respected! 08:24:24 q+ 08:26:24 nigel has joined #apa 08:28:33 matatk the process is really not accessible to tons of people in APA and COGA groups, we need to find a way to make things accessible to the groups first, also some people has some accessibility problems first. 08:28:33 Proposed process includes: 08:28:33 Reviewing feedback to determine if it is actionable. 08:28:33 If the task force decides to act on it, the issue will be labelled accordingly, and work will proceed through a pull request, allowing the person who provided the feedback to review the changes. 08:28:35 After review, several outcomes are possible: 08:28:35 The group and the submitter are satisfied. 08:28:35 The group is satisfied but the submitter feels the work doesn’t go far enough — in this case, the issue can remain open for further discussion. 08:28:36 The submitter disagrees with the direction taken — then the topic may be revisited. 08:28:36 The discussion emphasised transparency, collaboration, and allowing adequate time for responses within the feedback and review cycle. 08:28:54 q+ 08:28:57 q+ Janina 08:29:05 ack me 08:30:22 kevin there is lots of reasons why there might be a misunderstanding. The goal is the other part of it. GitHub does what we needed to do to address the transparency and so forth 08:31:01 present+ 08:31:21 Fazio implemented GitHub classroom into curriculum and program, it can be created assignments and tutorials 08:31:35 @janina GitHub is more than a platform 08:31:40 ack JenStrickland 08:32:08 JenStrickland GitHub classroom is more than the GitHub video/ training 08:32:27 Github Classroom assignment https://github.com/Helix-Opportunity/digital-accessibility-lab-github-fundamentals-github-starter-course/blob/first-draft-content/README.md 08:33:08 ack me 08:33:09 JenStrickland Lisa can provide more details about the problems of COGA, code help to find the solution. the designer, dev, etc would like to improve it. collecting the feedbacks has been done before 08:33:21 ack Janina 08:33:53 Helix Opportunity's GitHub Classroom page https://classroom.github.com/classrooms/139198271-digital-accessibility-lab 08:35:15 -> https://github.com/w3c/wcag/wiki/WCAG-2-Task-Force-process WCAG 2 Backlog TF process 08:35:52 @janina process really intresting . CFC to understand how they pop. circumstances so we can nip that in the bud. having wider converstion about how we clean up our expectations of one another, how we define. to sum up we have processes that we implemented in various ways. Llisa explained coga process matatk we need to create a process for 08:35:52 listening as JenStrickland said 08:38:05 JenStrickland learn how to listen and hear one and another is really important, to understand when we are in hearing mode, and all the other. we take for granted how to do things. "this is the people that want to speak, this is..." we need to make super that we adopt what we are talking about. create the work easier for everyone to let them do a 08:38:05 great work 08:39:11 q+ 08:39:19 ack Neha 08:39:22 matatk plans for maturity models , how we think about feedbacks and how to handle them. topic of consensus 08:40:20 zakim, who is here? 08:40:20 Present: matatk, JenStrickland, Fazio, Chiara, Neha, tamsin, janina, mike_beganyi, Lisa, Roy_Ruoxi, Lionel_Wolberger, chiace, kevin 08:40:23 On IRC I see Lionel_Wolberger, matatk, tamsin4, chiace, tako, Lisa, kevin, Neha, Adam_Page, JenStrickland, daniel-mac, Remi, Fazio, RRSAgent, Zakim, gpellegrino, wendyreid, masonf, 08:40:23 ... spectranaut_, jamesn, bkardell, hober, astearns, frehner, alice, jcraig, anssik, gb, chrishtr, hdv, Roy_Ruoxi, jyasskin, vmpstr, slightlyoff, Rachael, alastairc 08:41:25 Neha might you jot that down here? 08:41:56 Neha map the documentations, to support people in being more effective. i gave a high level outline of the feedback process, but i used github terms to describe the bits. In the google docs proess, it looks like this. in the github process. it looks like this. they are the same matatk approve 08:42:14 scribe+ 08:42:33 nigel has joined #apa 08:42:51 matatk: So, Kevin, re consensus, what should we discuss? 08:43:02 nigel has joined #apa 08:43:09 Kevin: I think the gap from my perspective, within this particular example… 08:43:29 … consensus was being argued based on industry usage rather than working group members, and that's a problem. 08:43:29 q+ 08:43:52 q+ 08:44:02 present+ 08:44:44 … when what you're looking for is for the group to agree or agree to disagree on how a document or resource is developing. That's the step where I can see a problematic outcome where it doesn't respect the working group's members input. 08:45:38 matatk: Janina has mentioned consensus. We've discussed it. It is where everybody could live with it, then to find that not everyone could live with it. 08:46:14 In one line, map every step from google docs being followed for issue management to be mapped with github process for issue management, so it will be easy for people to learn how to use github 08:46:30 … if it was entirely based on "this is how industry is doing it" then that would be bad. That was part of the feedback we received. I looked at how the task force reacted to the feedback and how they responded internally in the document. 08:47:04 … In the vast majority of cases, a reasonable discussion had occurred, and had they been communicated back according to the process we said we should have followed… 08:47:13 … that was part of the balance that I made. 08:47:43 … we had to balance the overwhelming majority that were very plus one, and the few that were minus one, and it was extremely difficult. 08:47:59 q? 08:48:04 ack Fazio 08:48:06 … We do care about the feedback, and I'm sorry that we didn't communicate that adequately at the time. 08:48:40 Fazio: Consensus, at what point do you determine you don't have consensus when people who are not part of the work and they object to things that have nothing to do with them. 08:48:53 … for example, we had one objection based on other people's issues. 08:49:13 … and if the minutes had been read, they would see that those issues were tabled to be addressed later on. 08:49:35 … so, what right do they have to object based on someone else's interpretation of someone else's issues? 08:50:04 … then, "this can't go into WCAG 3," and we as the AMMTF didn't believe they were applicable to the publication. 08:50:14 q+ Janina 08:50:25 … maybe this was not well communicated, my catharsis… 08:50:46 … we looked at the objections because they didn't have a lot of merit based on the situation. 08:51:18 … the comment from three years ago, which had been addressed, but wasn't communicated, but was. 08:52:31 Neha: there is a gap in communication that things were addressed, but were not communicated. 08:53:00 matatk: Context: there was a lot of support for the AMM, but there was some concern about it being published. 08:53:21 q? 08:53:23 … there were two objections, but it was published anyway. 08:53:45 ack JenStrickland 08:53:59 ack Janina 08:54:07 q+ kevin 08:54:42 @janina: I think we at the W3C has been spoiled in our consensus process. We have no mechanism… we started to in HTML5… but if we waited we would not have HTML5. It was a painful time and I hope not to revisit it here. 08:55:08 … consensus is not unanimity. There are times when we will not agree and still need to move forward. 08:55:44 … Thankfully we have a decision policy and followed to the best of our ability. I think it's to our credit that we forget that consensus is not unanimity. 08:56:17 … We must have good policies in place. It's not just AMMTF, COGA, … 08:56:32 … It came over time because of experience. 08:56:52 q? 08:56:52 … I do think we need to say a bit more than the process doc says currently. 08:56:58 ack kevin 08:57:08 AG usealy do not have 100% consensus. I actually made a formal objected to wcag 2.0 and got 40 people/organisations signing with me 08:57:40 Kevin: Responding to Fazio, forgive me if I misquote. You spoke about the right of the people not in the room to respond minus one, they do have a right. They're part of the working group. 08:58:15 … and that's problematic, because it is clear that these people have perspectives and they have a valid right to reflect those perspectives and their contribution to be respected. 08:58:38 … I did say it can't be normative, I think you're very far from being a statement. 08:58:42 -> https://www.w3.org/policies/process/#consensus-building Consensus Building 08:59:10 daniel-mac has joined #apa 08:59:10 … In terms of if there's specific guidance on consensus building, what it is, how to develop, how to deal with dissent. there's a lot of info there, a lot of history. 09:00:19 … and the last one you pointed to was an issue that had been addressed, was there for three years, and there wasn't anything linked to the solution / commit / change, so the burden is put on the original commenter to figure out. That's why we aim for transparency and connect things. 09:00:52 … Without it, it's very difficult for original commenters to understand. 09:01:35 q+ 09:01:44 Adam_Page has joined #apa 09:01:53 … otherwise we have these docs that aren't reflective of what the entire community sees. 09:06:42 {Sorry, I failed to document the last bit of discourse.} 09:07:39 RRSAgent, make minutes 09:07:40 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-apa-minutes.html Roy_Ruoxi 09:08:53 zakim, end meeting 09:08:53 As of this point the attendees have been matatk, JenStrickland, Fazio, Chiara, Neha, tamsin, janina, mike_beganyi, Lisa, Roy_Ruoxi, Lionel_Wolberger, chiace, kevin 09:08:56 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 09:08:58 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/11-apa-minutes.html Zakim 09:09:03 I am happy to have been of service, matatk; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 09:09:03 Zakim has left #apa 12:09:02 Adam_Page has joined #apa 12:14:44 kevin has left #apa 12:30:13 kirkwood has joined #APA 13:19:26 daniel-mac has joined #apa 13:40:27 Adam_Page has joined #apa