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06:34:05 <tidoust> Meeting: Find deterministic sizing rules for free-form documents
06:34:05 <tidoust> Chair: Carlos Jeurissen
06:34:05 <tidoust> Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/tpac2025-breakouts/issues/58
06:34:05 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #free-form-document-sizing
06:34:05 <tidoust> Zakim, clear agenda
06:34:05 <tidoust> Zakim, agenda+ Pick a scribe
06:34:05 <tidoust> Zakim, agenda+ Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy
06:34:05 <Zakim> agenda cleared
06:34:05 <Zakim> agendum 1 added
06:34:05 <tidoust> Zakim, agenda+ Goal of this session
06:34:05 <tidoust> Zakim, agenda+ Discussion
06:34:05 <tidoust> Zakim, agenda+ Next steps / where discussion continues
06:34:05 <Zakim> agendum 2 added
06:34:06 <tidoust> Zakim, agenda+ Adjourn / Use IRC command: Zakim, end meeting
06:34:07 <Zakim> agendum 3 added
06:34:07 <Zakim> agendum 4 added
06:34:07 <Zakim> agendum 5 added
06:34:07 <Zakim> agendum 6 added
06:34:32 <tidoust> tidoust has changed the topic to: Breakout: Find deterministic sizing rules for free-form documents - room 406 - 2025-11-10 17:00
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08:02:15 <fantasai> scribenick: fantasai
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08:07:05 <fantasai> Slides: https://apps.jeurissen.co/tpac2025-free-form.pdf
08:07:19 <fantasai> carlosj: Previously discussed autosizing of <iframe>s
08:07:39 <fantasai> ... Similarities to that and web extensions sizing. Maybe can solve in a similar fashion.
08:07:55 <fantasai> ... Hopefully make soe progress.
08:08:11 <fantasai> [Slide 3]
08:08:30 <fantasai> carlosj: Current extensions model, these are sized based on whatever the popup specifies.
08:08:48 <fantasai> ... E.g. if specifies that it's 500x500, then that's what browser ends up using.
08:08:58 <fantasai> ... Similar approach to contain-intrinsic-size: from-element
08:09:05 <fantasai> ... There's a bunch of issues.
08:09:07 <fantasai> [Slide 4]
08:09:28 <fantasai> carlosj: A browser may imply a size limit, e.g. if youre HTML is taller than this limit then you get scrollbars.
08:09:36 <fantasai> [slide 5]
08:09:41 <fantasai> [slide 6]
08:09:51 <fantasai> carlosj: A lot of inconsistencies, even between popup and dialog
08:10:04 <fantasai> [slide 7]
08:10:06 <fantasai> [slide 8]
08:10:25 <fantasai> firhas differences between options and popup
08:10:31 <fantasai> s/firhas/carlosj: firefox/
08:10:37 <fantasai> [slide 9]
08:10:59 <fantasai> carlosj: Extension popups can be in two states in Safari. Freeform, similar to before, and fixed version in which size is determined by the browser.
08:11:15 <fantasai> carlosj: As an extension it's not very obvious how to distinction.
08:11:18 <fantasai> [slide 10]
08:11:30 <fantasai> carlosj: So lots of hacks to try to compensate for this
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08:12:00 <fantasai> carlosj: It's hard to both give clues to preferred sizing while also sizing into an explicitly sized dialog
08:12:03 <fantasai> [slide 11]
08:12:27 <fantasai> carlosj: Browser needs to be able to decide sizing. Need ability to update. ...
08:12:31 <fantasai> [slide 12]
08:12:46 <fantasai> carlosj: Ideally author should be able to specify min/max, and that should be overrideable by the author
08:13:07 <fantasai> carlosj: Author might want to opt into host sizing
08:13:09 <fantasai> [slide 13]
08:13:22 <fantasai> carlosj: Sometimes extension can be moved from popup to full size
08:13:25 <fantasai> [slide 14]
08:13:45 <fantasai> carlosj: There's a guessing game, so there's a need for different opt ins for back-compat
08:13:54 <fantasai> carlosj: for iframes it's more about security and privacy
08:13:56 <fantasai> [slide 15]
08:14:04 <fantasai> carlosj: Browsers wait for extension popups to be displayed on load
08:14:21 <fantasai> ... ideally it shouldn't have similar loading concepts, you want the popup to be directly available fully loaded when you open the popup
08:14:36 <fantasai> ... but that requires base conditions, like not working until load is finished
08:14:40 <fantasai> [slide 16]
08:14:49 <fantasai> carlosj: We also have issue of one-dimensional flexibility
08:15:06 <fantasai> ... for example sidebars, might want self-determined width with a fixed height
08:15:26 <fantasai> carlosj: Because these are not specified, all browsers set fixed size for both of these
08:15:35 <fantasai> [slide 17]
08:15:38 <fantasai> [slide 18]
08:15:52 <fantasai> carlosj: A lot of work in CSSWG, last iteration was the contain-intrinsic-size: from-element
08:16:03 <fantasai> ... not sure there's been progress since 2021
08:16:06 <fantasai> [slide 19]
08:16:25 <fantasai> carlosj: Another way is for extensions to be able to query whether auto-sizing is applied
08:16:35 <fantasai> [slide 20]
08:16:47 <fantasai> carlosj: Coudl expose constants as environment variables
08:17:00 <fantasai> [slide 21]
08:17:19 <fantasai> carlosj: Or could explore using an @-rule, similar to @page
08:17:27 <fantasai> ... E.g. @freeform { ... }
08:17:34 <fantasai> ... That way avoids messing with HTML/body sizing
08:17:38 <fantasai> ... and can declare your preferred sizes
08:17:52 <fantasai> [slide 22]
08:18:12 <fantasai> carlosj: There are some issues around flickering, could address similar to <meta viewport>
08:18:20 <fantasai> [slide 23]
08:18:22 <emilio> q+
08:18:33 <fantasai> carlosj: Can we explore the best ways to solve this?
08:18:41 <fantasai> ... are these similar to iframe sizing? or are they separate issues?
08:18:54 <fantasai> ... could webextensions be a testing ground for these questions before exposing to iframes?
08:19:03 <fantasai> carlosj: Questions / input?
08:19:23 <fantasai> emilio: The obvious thing that would be consistent with e.g. picture-in-picture would be a display-mode query
08:19:36 <fantasai> ... that would allow you to check whether you're in a popup
08:20:00 <fantasai> emilio: One issue with the auto-sizing, and the requestedwidth/height attributes, is that you could end up with something cyclic
08:20:20 <fantasai> ... so auto-sizing an iframe is pretty hard
08:20:51 <fantasai> emilio: the way we implement this in Firefox is that we do an extra layout pass with an unconstrained width and height, and that is pretty expensive, and you can't do it all the time
08:21:02 <fantasai> ... possible to flip an MQ but it's extra expensive then
08:21:16 <fantasai> ... Having a separate display mode is low-risk, and solves a lot of the use cases here.
08:21:28 <fantasai> ... Seems non-controversial, maybe we should just do it and get the CSSWG to resolve on it.
08:21:48 <fantasai> ... Beyond that, might be useful to know how the actual implementations works. Gecko's approach is not amazing, but it works.
08:21:58 <fantasai> ... Web exensions case should be standardized in some way.
08:22:24 <fantasai> ... Would be good to have a list of what each browser does
08:22:33 <fantasai> ... and come up with an easy-to-understand rule.
08:23:07 <fantasai> emilio: A lot of these extensions change their size dynamically also
08:23:15 <fantasai> ... so need to inform the browser somehow that it needs to resize.
08:23:21 <fantasai> ... e.g. Gecko uses ResizeObserver
08:23:27 <fantasai> ... but can create cyclic issues
08:23:35 <fantasai> emilio: So display-mode seems uncontroversial.
08:23:43 <fantasai> emilio: ideally standardize how we do intrinsic sizing
08:23:51 <fantasai> emilio: But don't wait for iframe auto-sizing, because that's hard.
08:24:36 <fantasai> adekker: We've struggled with this, when implementing popup stuff as well, so knowing a standard way of working would be great.
08:24:46 <fantasai> ... Not having to second-guess what's happening.
08:25:12 <fantasai> emilio: If it's useful, FF internal dialogs do check computed min-width of the document element to see if it's non-auto, and same for the height.
08:25:18 <fantasai> ... (this is for internal popups, not extensions)
08:25:34 <fantasai> ... If the popup wants to set an explicit size, they use a DOM attribute or that.
08:25:46 <fantasai> ... There was also another special case for intrinsic sizing in the horizontal axis, inline axis.
08:26:14 <fantasai> ... iframe auto-sizing that uses requestedwidth/requestedheight uses something similar to this with extra constraints
08:27:05 <fantasai> fantasai: MQ wouldn't solve the loading issue
08:27:08 <fantasai> [slide 10]
08:27:40 <fantasai> carlosj: display-mode would solve this one
08:28:01 <fantasai> ... doesn't solve the double scrollbar case
08:28:31 <fantasai> ... maybe could resolve by passing as environment variables
08:28:54 <fantasai> emilio: Need to communicate your preferred width outside of style
08:29:09 <fantasai> ... that way you can use style as intended, and use viewport media queries to react to your current popup size
08:29:28 <fantasai> ... because the constraints are exposed as the viewport
08:29:31 <fantasai> ... so that's the issue
08:29:51 <oriol> q+
08:29:58 <fantasai> emilio: Gecko used to have an API window.sizeToContent which was intended to trigger this mechanism programmatically
08:30:28 <fantasai> Rob: For example in Firefox or Chrome, extension popu and ? paes resizes. You start from web, see if it fits, and if not you resize it, and sometimes this runs off and keeps growing
08:30:34 <fantasai> ... would that be in scope for fixing?
08:30:37 <fantasai> carlosj: Ideally yes
08:31:15 <fantasai> ... In this case, for FF options, the maximum height is infinite
08:31:18 <fantasai> emilio: We have a max height as well
08:31:26 <fantasai> ... we constrain the popups
08:31:30 <fantasai> carlosj: But the options case
08:31:33 <fantasai> emilio: oh right
08:32:00 <fantasai> emilio: Using width: fit-content and height: fit-content might be an interesting idea
08:32:13 <fantasai> ... because height: fit-content on a block is basically auto but it might be a good hint
08:32:19 <fantasai> ... Would be good to know what other browsers do
08:32:34 <fantasai> ... The kind of measurements we can take, I can tell you our contraints, but don't know about other browsers
08:32:40 <emilio> https://searchfox.org/firefox-main/rev/ced72179decc0fcffcbf4f4540ff4bcafbfb182e/dom/webidl/Window.webidl#377-381
08:32:46 <fantasai> s/... Would/emilio: Would/
08:33:06 <fantasai> ... This solves our internal use cases
08:33:18 <fantasai> ... For max-width/height, you can make things only apply on popups
08:33:30 <fantasai> ... html { max-height: 500px; } will do the right hting
08:33:58 <fantasai> carlosj: Browser might have ideal size, by only specifying max and min you could potentially do that.
08:34:32 <fantasai> oriol: I was wondering to address the circularities
08:34:47 <fantasai> ... if it would be possible in this popup display mode to ensure that the intrinsic contributions would not depend on the viewport size
08:34:53 <fantasai> ... For example this means that viewport units don't work
08:35:02 <fantasai> ... Media queries could be indefinite
08:35:08 <fantasai> ... We would need to address these
08:35:22 <fantasai> ... But if we could guarantee it, then we could size the viewport to the intrinsic contribution
08:35:34 <fantasai> ... And then once we have this viewport size, percentages could resolve normally against this size
08:35:45 <emilio> q+
08:35:47 <fantasai> ... Just like we do in a web-page, if you have a percentage inside an auto-sized container
08:35:51 <emilio> ack emilio
08:35:59 <emilio> q+
08:36:05 <fantasai> oriol: Of course disabling all these features... not sure if it's ok
08:36:11 <fantasai> ... maybe some people want to use them
08:36:17 <fantasai> ... but that's an idea
08:36:35 <fantasai> emilio: Main issue with that is, even if you do it just for the particular measurement, you need to know when to re-run that measurement
08:36:42 <fantasai> ... and that's expensive as well
08:36:59 <fantasai> ... Currently we have a mutation observer, and we update it when the DOM changes
08:37:12 <fantasai> ... If you want to do it for iframes, then it becomes a lot less realistic
08:37:29 <fantasai> ... Maybe the frame shoudl be able to say, I want this measurement done, similar to previous sizeToContent API
08:37:34 <fantasai> ... but conditionally disabling ...
08:37:49 <fantasai> ... Are you proposing to disable only during meausrement or generally?
08:37:52 <fantasai> oriol: Generally.
08:37:58 <fantasai> ... Media queries affect the styles that we're using
08:38:08 <fantasai> ... This is taken into account when you are computing the intrinsic contributions
08:38:21 <fantasai> ... But you're saying it's complex to know when to update.
08:38:39 <fantasai> ... Not that different from, in a normal, an element size would depend on intrisnic contribution of its contents
08:38:42 <fantasai> ... and you update when the contents change
08:38:57 <fantasai> emilio: This involves coordinating multiple processes, so it's more expensive
08:39:07 <fantasai> ... but sure we can detect when intrinsic size of an element may have changed in layout
08:39:15 <fantasai> ... but I'm pretty sure we don't want to re-do this measurement every time
08:39:33 <fantasai> ... You change the text of a button, suddenly need to run this measureent
08:39:43 <fantasai> ... Doing it every frame would not be reasonable.
08:39:54 <fantasai> oriol: Having multiple processes ...
08:40:12 <fantasai> ... In general no different from eleent with fit-content, and change the contents. Possibly need to update the ancestors.
08:40:18 <fantasai> emilio: ...
08:40:32 <fantasai> emilio: Probably possible but not easy
08:40:55 <fantasai> emilio: Also what do we do for overflow? If you have an abspos that's like 350px and intrinsic sizes are 400, do you show the abspos?
08:41:14 <fantasai> oriol: If you do thing of taking intrinsic contribution, then yes, you can have contents overflowing and you will have scrollbars and overflow
08:41:51 <fantasai> emilio: actually we do a min-content check to find the height...
08:42:01 <fantasai> oriol: You'll get one word per line?
08:42:35 <emilio> wqhttps://searchfox.org/firefox-main/rev/ced72179decc0fcffcbf4f4540ff4bcafbfb182e/layout/base/nsDocumentViewer.cpp#2584-2601
08:42:38 <emilio> https://searchfox.org/firefox-main/rev/ced72179decc0fcffcbf4f4540ff4bcafbfb182e/layout/base/nsDocumentViewer.cpp#2584-2601
08:43:26 <fantasai> fantasai: Are the extensions in question with intrinsic sizes?
08:43:40 <fantasai> carlosj: Often fixed width and content-based height
08:44:11 <fantasai> emilio: What we do depends on form factor.
08:44:21 <fantasai> ... The browser must impose a max-width and max-height
08:44:33 <fantasai> ... and then you either do this intrinsic size, or let popup pick an explicit size?
08:45:16 <fantasai> ... Popup needs to communicate to browser what it's preferred width/height are. The rest can be inferred, probably.
08:45:30 <fantasai> ... API for that seems fine
08:45:43 <fantasai> ... working off requestedheight/requestedwidth seems fine to me
08:45:53 <fantasai> fantasai: Remind me what that was?
08:46:32 <fantasai> emilio: So page inside iframe would communicate out their preferred size by these attributes on the root
08:47:13 <fantasai> fantasai: Could it ask for a content-based size?
08:47:18 <fantasai> emilio: Could use JS to set it to scrollHeight
08:47:32 <fantasai> carlosj: Didn't do it automatically to avoid authors doing bad things
08:48:02 <fantasai> emilio: Supporting these attributes on extensions is similar to what we do to day
08:48:35 <emilio> fantasai: the difference than what we're doing today is the autosizes
08:49:03 <emilio> ... what we're doing is that the author can set the size of the root element to communicate the preferred size
08:49:14 <emilio> ... but the root element is still that size even if it's not
08:49:55 <emilio> ... so there's no way to say "i want to be 500px if I'm not autosized"
08:50:02 <fantasai> s/it's not/it's given a different size/
08:50:26 <fantasai> emilio: so I propose for the webextensions code to read the requested* attributes
08:50:58 <fantasai> ... so yeah, we need some extra information
08:51:06 <fantasai> ... idk how webextensions group specifies these things
08:51:12 <fantasai> ... but that seems doable.
08:51:23 <fantasai> ... set your preferred size with these attributes
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08:52:09 <fantasai> emilio: Other thing that came up is, you might want to change size depending on font size. E.g. '30em'. Can do manually in JS, but not great.
08:52:22 <fantasai> fantasai: what if these attributes take CSS <length> ?
08:52:34 <fantasai> emilio: Then have to define when they're computed
08:52:55 <fantasai> ... if there's a dynamic change to the root element's font size, need to resize
08:53:17 <fantasai> ... in Firefox, the dialog asks for sizing, so you know when you're measuring.
08:53:35 <emilio> fantasai: length values changes when viewport or root font-size changes
08:53:36 <emilio> emilio: or zoom
08:54:02 <fantasai> fantasai: so change based on this
08:54:03 <emilio> fantasai: so should be easy to watch for
08:54:08 <fantasai> emilio: what if you have an MQ that depends on it?
08:54:21 <fantasai> s/depends on/sets/
08:54:46 <fantasai> [slide 7]
08:54:57 <fantasai> emilio: There's a variable width here, ideally an extension can handle both
08:55:05 <fantasai> s/emilio/carlosj/
08:55:12 <fantasai> ... don't think these attributes would solve that
08:55:21 <fantasai> emilio: If you have a display-mode MQ then can resolve that
08:55:57 <fantasai> ... you would set preferred width and height, but you don't necessarily honor the preferred size if it's fixed size
08:56:30 <fantasai> emilio: First, need a better idea of what other browsers are doing
08:56:45 <fantasai> emilio: then maybe experiment with these attributes and try to standardize some form of these attributes
08:56:53 <fantasai> emilio: the MQ is probably still useful, and that can be brought to CSSWG
08:57:00 <fantasai> emilio: I think that's a good start?
08:59:10 <fantasai> SUMMARY: move forward with investigating the requestedwidth/height attributes and a new display-mode
09:00:21 <fantasai> Slides: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2025Nov/att-0001/tpac2025-free-form.pdf
09:00:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/10-free-form-document-sizing-minutes.html fantasai
13:43:47 <tidoust> RRSAgent, bye
13:43:47 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
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13:56:55 <Bert> RRSAgent, make logs public
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13:57:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/10-free-form-document-sizing-minutes.html Bert
13:57:49 <Bert> i|Slides: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2025Nov/att-0001/tpac2025-free-form.pdf|Previously
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14:00:12 <Bert> s/Previously//
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14:02:21 <Bert> i|Slideset: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2025Nov/att-0001/tpac2025-free-form.pdf|Previously discussed
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14:20:50 <Bert> i|Previously|Slides: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2025Nov/att-0001/tpac2025-free-form.pdf
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14:27:04 <Bert> RRSAgent, bye
14:27:04 <RRSAgent> I see no action items