00:02:29 RRSAgent has joined #aria 00:02:33 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/11/10-aria-irc 00:02:33 RRSAgent, make logs Public 00:02:34 Meeting: ARIA WG 00:02:45 zakim, stay 00:02:46 I don't understand 'stay', daniel-mac 00:03:04 Jacques has joined #aria 00:03:42 scribe: ZoeBijl 00:03:58 VY: we’ll start with introductions 00:04:06 Jamie has joined #aria 00:04:09 vmpstr has joined #aria 00:04:14 ... please mention your name, pronouns, where you work, and what you’ve been passionate about lately 00:04:58 Valerie Young (Val), she/her 00:05:07 James Nurthen, he/him 00:05:26 Lucal, he/him 00:06:13 Giacomo, he/him 00:06:28 rrsagent, stay 00:06:28 Rémi Bétin, he/him 00:06:35 siri has joined #aria 00:06:56 Shirisha Gubba (Siri), she/her 00:07:17 Present+ 00:07:19 sarah has joined #aria 00:07:29 sarah has joined #aria 00:07:29 siri has joined #aria 00:07:29 Jacques has joined #aria 00:07:29 github-bot has joined #aria 00:07:29 keithamus has joined #aria 00:07:29 smockle has joined #aria 00:07:29 jcraig has joined #aria 00:07:31 Zoë Bijl, she/her 00:07:53 James Teh (Jamie), he/him 00:08:21 James Craig, he/him 00:08:39 jamesn has joined #aria 00:08:39 sarah has joined #aria 00:08:39 siri has joined #aria 00:08:39 Jacques has joined #aria 00:08:39 github-bot has joined #aria 00:08:39 keithamus has joined #aria 00:08:39 smockle has joined #aria 00:08:39 jcraig has joined #aria 00:09:05 cabanier has joined #aria 00:09:11 ??, he/him 00:09:24 present+ 00:09:33 present+ 00:09:43 ?? Rogers, he/him 00:09:58 jamesn has joined #aria 00:09:58 sarah has joined #aria 00:09:58 siri has joined #aria 00:09:58 Jacques has joined #aria 00:09:58 github-bot has joined #aria 00:09:58 keithamus has joined #aria 00:09:58 smockle has joined #aria 00:09:58 jcraig has joined #aria 00:10:02 Yamaha? 00:10:16 ???, he/him 00:10:27 Arielle Gilmore (Ari), she/her 00:11:02 xxx, she/her 00:11:08 jamesn has joined #aria 00:11:08 sarah has joined #aria 00:11:08 siri has joined #aria 00:11:08 Jacques has joined #aria 00:11:08 github-bot has joined #aria 00:11:08 keithamus has joined #aria 00:11:08 smockle has joined #aria 00:11:08 jcraig has joined #aria 00:11:25 Daniel, he/him 00:11:32 Alan Page, he/him 00:11:43 Matt King, he/him 00:12:09 Sarah Higley, she/her 00:12:11 jamesn has joined #aria 00:12:11 sarah has joined #aria 00:12:11 siri has joined #aria 00:12:11 Jacques has joined #aria 00:12:11 github-bot has joined #aria 00:12:11 keithamus has joined #aria 00:12:11 smockle has joined #aria 00:12:11 jcraig has joined #aria 00:13:32 jamesn has joined #aria 00:13:32 sarah has joined #aria 00:13:32 siri has joined #aria 00:13:32 Jacques has joined #aria 00:13:32 github-bot has joined #aria 00:13:32 keithamus has joined #aria 00:13:32 smockle has joined #aria 00:13:32 jcraig has joined #aria 00:13:47 *fixing meeting settings* 00:14:40 front-endian-jane has joined #aria 00:14:40 masonf has joined #aria 00:14:40 giacomo-petri has joined #aria 00:14:40 arigilmore has joined #aria 00:14:40 jamesn has joined #aria 00:14:40 sarah has joined #aria 00:14:40 siri has joined #aria 00:14:40 Jacques has joined #aria 00:14:40 github-bot has joined #aria 00:14:40 keithamus has joined #aria 00:14:40 smockle has joined #aria 00:14:40 jcraig has joined #aria 00:15:39 Chris ??, he/him 00:15:44 Mike ??, he/him 00:15:54 LeoL has joined #aria 00:15:54 front-endian-jane has joined #aria 00:15:54 masonf has joined #aria 00:15:54 giacomo-petri has joined #aria 00:15:54 arigilmore has joined #aria 00:15:54 jamesn has joined #aria 00:15:54 sarah has joined #aria 00:15:54 siri has joined #aria 00:15:54 Jacques has joined #aria 00:15:54 github-bot has joined #aria 00:15:54 keithamus has joined #aria 00:15:54 smockle has joined #aria 00:15:54 jcraig has joined #aria 00:16:05 Jqcques Newman, he/him 00:16:15 s/Jqcques/Jacques/ 00:16:54 Rahim, he/him 00:17:22 LeoL has joined #aria 00:17:22 front-endian-jane has joined #aria 00:17:22 masonf has joined #aria 00:17:22 giacomo-petri has joined #aria 00:17:22 arigilmore has joined #aria 00:17:22 jamesn has joined #aria 00:17:22 sarah has joined #aria 00:17:22 siri has joined #aria 00:17:22 Jacques has joined #aria 00:17:22 github-bot has joined #aria 00:17:22 keithamus has joined #aria 00:17:22 smockle has joined #aria 00:17:22 jcraig has joined #aria 00:17:44 Joey Artner 00:17:52 Vladimir Levin (Vlad), he/him 00:18:04 OK, let’s go through the details for the week 00:18:13 at 9:30 we have our first session 00:18:27 ChrisCuellar has joined #aria 00:18:42 Adam_Page has joined #aria 00:19:04 mehm8128 has joined #aria 00:19:04 LeoL has joined #aria 00:19:04 front-endian-jane has joined #aria 00:19:04 masonf has joined #aria 00:19:04 giacomo-petri has joined #aria 00:19:04 arigilmore has joined #aria 00:19:04 jamesn has joined #aria 00:19:04 sarah has joined #aria 00:19:04 siri has joined #aria 00:19:04 Jacques has joined #aria 00:19:04 github-bot has joined #aria 00:19:04 keithamus has joined #aria 00:19:04 smockle has joined #aria 00:19:04 jcraig has joined #aria 00:19:22 Remi has joined #aria 00:19:24 present+ 00:19:28 present+ 00:19:34 present+ 00:19:35 present+ 00:19:38 present+ 00:19:46 masonf_ has joined #aria 00:19:53 present+ 00:20:20 present+ 00:20:25 masonf_ has joined #aria 00:21:27 present+ 00:21:42 Back to the day… 00:21:54 agenda is on a wikipage:https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/TPAC-2025-Kobe,-Japan-Agenda#monday-nov-10-2025 00:21:59 https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/TPAC-2025-Kobe,-Japan-Agenda 00:22:04 s/wikipage:/wikipage: / 00:22:08 we have a full agenda today 00:22:10 https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/TPAC-2025-Kobe,-Japan-Agenda 00:22:25 we haev an open half hour tomorrow 00:22:33 masonf has joined #aria 00:22:50 if there are breakout sessions that could be interesting for ARIA to join, feel free to edit the wiki 00:22:52 s/haev/have/ 00:23:01 thursday tehre’s ??? 00:23:08 and on friday ?? 00:23:31 s/friday ??/friday there’s a Joint meeting with AGWG/ 00:23:50 s/???/Joint meeting with APA for cross-spec review/ 00:23:57 s/tehre’s/there’s a Joint meeting with APA/ 00:24:39 s/with AGWG/with AGWG about how the automation projects may help with testing WCAG techniques/ 00:24:51 RRSAgent, make minutes 00:24:53 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/10-aria-minutes.html ZoeBijl 00:25:36 chair: spectranaut_ jamesn 00:26:31 VY: the enter aria-at is a general session 00:26:45 SH: on wednesday at 5:30 there’s ??? 00:27:02 s/???/a session about IDRef\/CSS selectors/ 00:27:31 JT: they put all the accessibility ones in the same time slots 00:27:47 JN: there’s a whole list of sessions that day 00:27:55 VY: i’ll keep adding links to the wiki 00:27:59 ... feel free to add more 00:28:40 JN: mo-tu, th-fr are usually working group meetings and then wednesday are breakout sessions 00:29:14 link to breakout agenda: https://www.w3.org/2025/11/TPAC/schedule.html#monday 00:29:43 TODAY AT 5 https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/af242c02-5463-4aea-9203-7b2616111a6e/ 00:30:35 topic: AccName vs Content 00:30:53 mark has joined #aria 00:30:57 JN: we’ll try and talk about label precedent and all sort of stuff 00:31:00 ... we have two main issues 00:31:12 ... first is whether `label` should override and set precedent 00:31:36 ... second clarify whether should split ?? 00:31:42 jugglinmike has joined #aria 00:31:54 s/??/name from content/ 00:32:16 present+ 00:32:45 ... i think we probably want to come up with some presedence rules 00:32:57 ... the current algorithm doesn’t really work for anybody 00:33:14 ... we have a whole bunch of things where authors think they’re doing the right thing but they’re not 00:33:24 ... we should look what we can do to clarify this 00:33:35 present+ jugglinmike 00:33:37 ... Steve Faulkner and some other folks at ?? came up with a ??? 00:33:39 https://html5accessibility.com/stuff/2025/06/12/accname-unclarified/ 00:33:40 present+ 00:33:50 s/???/content model/ 00:33:55 ... that’s probably worth a read 00:34:01 ... there are three different ways forward 00:34:03 ... 1. do nothing 00:34:21 ... 2. create some sort of presedence table 00:34:31 ... 3. some sort of content model table 00:34:54 ... we’ve talked about coming up with those tables at various times 00:34:58 ... it could be v useful 00:35:02 ... but would be a huge lift 00:35:13 ... certainly something worth doing 00:35:27 ... for content models, Steve’s blog is probably the easiest way to look at this 00:35:49 ... those different kind of content models fall into different ??? 00:36:04 q? 00:36:18 SH: it looks like it’s focused on elements that make the element not be empty 00:36:27 JC: ?? 00:36:29 Jemma has joined #ARIA 00:36:46 ... i’ll try to look it up before tomorrow’s meeting 00:36:52 JN: that’s the problem 00:37:01 ... looking at these different thins 00:37:05 s/thins/things/ 00:37:21 MK: you were saying about different browsers and AT 00:37:28 ... do we have any info about what they are doing? 00:37:38 ... in the APG we have a table that lists every role 00:37:45 ... this is what happens for every role 00:37:49 JN: it might be 00:38:03 ... to take an example that i think we all agree shouldn’t be named, a paragraph 00:38:14 ... but you still can 00:38:22 VY: the browser won’t complain 00:38:23 q+ to clarify that name and content are not necessarily mutually exclusive, are fundamentally different and can have different requirements depending on type 00:38:37 JN: but then a list item can be named and that could be useful 00:38:43 ... but it generally makes things worse 00:39:06 MK: do we have any instances where some SR+browser combo is overwriting content and others are not 00:39:10 JT: i believe so 00:39:14 s/JC: ??/jcraig: also certain types of content (SVG, USD via ) can have their accessibility defined in the remotely loaded "embedded" content... e.g. SVG title element in a remote file's sub-DOM 00:39:15 ack Jamie 00:39:15 Jamie, you wanted to clarify that name and content are not necessarily mutually exclusive, are fundamentally different and can have different requirements depending on type 00:39:22 ... but don’t have an example top of mind 00:39:27 q? 00:39:32 JT: name is basically a flat string 00:39:36 ... as it’s currently defined 00:39:41 ... but content can contain semantics 00:39:44 ... and other objects 00:39:54 ... so if you flatten it you get just text 00:40:05 ... the second part is that they’re not mutually exclusive 00:40:12 ... an example is landmarks 00:40:15 ... the name is important 00:40:22 ... but you don’t want to overwrite the content 00:40:28 ... AT already know about these 00:40:41 ... with headings you can argue that the name should overwrite the content 00:41:13 ZB: ?? 00:41:30 JT: but in those situations people wouldn’t put a label on the heading 00:41:33 ZB: right 00:41:53 q? 00:42:00 ack me 00:42:08 s/??/for the heading example, a common pattern is links in headings, to create a permalink/ 00:42:14 q+ 00:42:15 MK: we need to figure out the end goal 00:42:20 ... before we jump into solving 00:42:29 ... there’s either intentional masking 00:42:40 ... or unintential masking 00:42:44 ... because of how browsers and at work 00:42:51 ... i wonder if there’s agreement in the room 00:43:01 ... about intentional overriding 00:43:10 ... is encessary in cases and something we don’t want to break 00:43:23 JN: you’re saying there are use cases for that overriding? 00:43:31 MK: yes, and they’re supported by the spec 00:43:56 ... yea, so the ones where the spec currently allows it, and is being used… is there agreement that we don’t want to break that? 00:44:00 s/JN: you/JT: you/ 00:44:06 JT: i would agree with caviats 00:44:13 q+ to discuss the follow-on problem... it's not just the agreement of the browser engine... there re different expectations from users of different downstream AT 00:44:17 ack siri 00:44:26 MK: it’ll be important to know about caviats 00:44:36 siri: for accordians ?? 00:44:47 ... i don’t feel like heading with label didn’t break accessibility 00:44:56 ... for a paragraph i can understand 00:45:21 ack jcraig 00:45:21 jcraig, you wanted to discuss the follow-on problem... it's not just the agreement of the browser engine... there re different expectations from users of different downstream AT 00:45:27 JC: clarifying question 00:45:27 Matt_King has joined #aria 00:45:36 q+ 00:45:37 ... if i recall correctly paragraph label is now prohibited 00:45:38 siri: yes 00:46:04 JC: what did you mean with the heading? 00:46:04 so we have the heading, then the button inside 00:46:10 s/so/siri: so/ 00:46:13 q+ to note that the spec doesn't actually specify whether names should or shouldn't override at all, plus answer the screen reader question 00:46:18 JC: this could be specific AAM problems 00:46:33 ... but the follow on, there are different user expectations based on which AT you use 00:46:51 ... VoiceOver on Mac might say “Accordian heading with two buttons” 00:46:56 ... then the user knows where to go from there 00:47:08 ... go into the heading to find the buttons for example 00:47:12 q? 00:47:21 q+ 00:47:25 ack giacomo-petri 00:47:31 ... but the accname spec right now says the name should include the button labels 00:47:42 siri: ??? 00:47:52 giacomo-petri: when we ?? the generic roles 00:47:57 ... at the time we also broke some of the ?? 00:48:04 ... to provide visual presentation 00:48:23 ... we had normal price vs promotional price 00:48:27 ... we would use aria-label to indicate the different prices 00:48:51 JC: can you clarify the example? 00:49:08 Jemma has joined #ARIA 00:49:15 GP: there was a strike through price and a discount price 00:49:18 present+ 00:49:21 ... and the aria-label was placed ??? 00:49:42 s/???/on the `div`/ 00:49:47 q? 00:49:51 JN: we’re not too worried about things that never really worked 00:50:07 MK: for most AT label information just disappears in those situations 00:50:09 s/there was a strike through price and a discount price/there was a strike through price and a discount price so the SRs were not adequately conveying the old content was stricken/ 00:50:12 ack Jamie 00:50:12 Jamie, you wanted to note that the spec doesn't actually specify whether names should or shouldn't override at all, plus answer the screen reader question 00:50:16 siri: i think it worked in JAWS at some point 00:50:23 JT: if the div was empty maybe 00:50:31 q? 00:50:44 ... with the exception of ?? 00:50:53 ... what ATs are having to do is make assumptions 00:51:05 ... the spec doesn’t say anything about whether label should overwrite content 00:51:24 s/exception of ??/exception of name prohibited/ 00:51:28 ... the answer to the heading questions 00:51:47 ... currently because headings are generally pretty straight forward in their content 00:51:52 ... if there’s an explicit label 00:51:55 ... aria-label for example 00:51:59 qq+ to mention the logistics of queueing with a prompt 00:52:04 ... then the label overrides the content complely 00:52:22 ... if the heading contains an itneractive element it doesn’t do that 00:52:30 ... that kind of solves the problem 00:52:33 ... but it’s not defined 00:52:36 ... which is scary 00:52:45 ack me 00:52:46 jcraig, you wanted to react to Jamie to mention the logistics of queueing with a prompt 00:52:51 ack jcraig 00:52:52 ... with the content model ??? 00:53:18 ... ????? 00:53:18 ack me 00:53:24 ack me 00:53:27 JN: drag this bag to problems and solutions 00:53:45 ... sounds to me that Jamie made it clear that label and content are different concepts 00:53:58 ... we should be clearer in the spec that these are different things 00:54:09 ... are there cases where label should overwrite content? 00:54:12 JT: yes 00:54:37 q+ 00:54:46 JN: do we have use cases for overriding where label overwrites content with focusable children? 00:54:50 JC: yes 00:54:58 q+ to answer use cases for nodes with child accessible nodes 00:55:01 ... there was ?? 00:55:13 daniel-mac_ has joined #aria 00:55:22 ack front-endian-jane 00:55:36 front-endian-jane: there are some data-viz examples 00:55:44 ... things that make visual sense and have some semantics 00:55:54 ... with trying to make it sr compatible 00:55:55 q+ 00:56:10 ... it would be a lot less code to be able to override content explicitly 00:56:11 q+ to respond to the charts/dataviz scenario 00:56:29 ... we usually have to write it multiple times and hack with css 00:56:31 ack sarah 00:56:31 sarah, you wanted to answer use cases for nodes with child accessible nodes 00:56:35 JN: could you not use role=img on it? 00:56:45 front-endian-jane: we don’t necessarily want it to be treated as an image 00:56:51 SH: ??? 00:56:58 ... so you overwrite that wiht an aria-label 00:57:00 q? 00:57:04 ... another is ?? 00:57:09 ... another is with an AI bot 00:57:13 ... if you’re arrowing through messages 00:57:30 ... it would be nice if you could hide the repeat commands (??) 00:57:32 q+ to note that these are not override cases 00:57:44 ack jcraig 00:57:44 jcraig, you wanted to respond to the charts/dataviz scenario 00:57:56 JC: to respont to the dataviz scenarios 00:58:00 q+ 00:58:05 ... which are kinda leading into aria actions… 00:58:18 ... there’s a session tomorrow where i talk about the ?? 00:58:22 ... what are we doing with SVG 00:58:30 ... interactive SVG 00:58:35 ... relevant to this situation 00:58:44 ... do we want something like a leafnote 00:58:54 ... VO on the desktop has this ?? 00:59:02 ... on iOS you can do it via the actions rotor 00:59:08 s/leafnote/leaf node/ 00:59:17 ... and it kinda sounds like that’s part of what we’re talking about 00:59:29 ... but you wouldn’t want that for the main content for a user 00:59:44 ack Jamie 00:59:44 Jamie, you wanted to note that these are not override cases 01:00:04 JT: the examples are, as i understand, where you don}t want the label to override? 01:00:11 SH: no i do want the override 01:00:35 JT: when you cursor through the content you don’t want the child nodes to be read 01:00:44 ... but you want to be able to navigate into it and still read them 01:01:00 ... so that’s where the definition of override is important 01:01:04 ... same with list item 01:01:18 q+ lucas 01:01:28 ... do you know how this works with the heading and link role? 01:01:35