23:50:02 RRSAgent has joined #pmwg 23:50:06 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/11/09-pmwg-irc 23:50:06 RRSAgent, make logs Public 23:50:07 Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group 23:50:24 present+ 23:50:52 present+ 23:51:21 chair: wendyreid, shiestyle 23:53:04 rdeltour has joined #pmwg 23:53:36 present+ 23:54:25 AvneeshSingh has joined #pmwg 23:55:49 George has joined #pmwg 23:56:47 jroque has joined #pmwg 23:57:12 toshiakikoike has joined #pmwg 23:57:25 present+ 23:57:44 present+ 23:57:52 MasakazuKitahara has joined #pmwg 23:58:07 present+ 23:58:50 present+ 23:59:17 mgarrish has joined #pmwg 00:01:41 gpellegrino has joined #pmwg 00:01:54 scribe+ 00:01:55 present+ 00:02:09 LaurentLM has joined #pmwg 00:02:19 laurentLM+ 00:02:21 present+ 00:02:27 wendyreid: Welcome 00:02:33 present+ 00:02:52 ... today is mostly annotations, ISO, digital comics, plus extra time at the end 00:03:02 present+ 00:03:57 ... tomorrow we start with BG meeting (no conflict with PMWG), then we take over. Japanese publishing guidelines, html in epub, pub manifest, bugs, buffer for runover 00:04:20 ... [see calendar for times] 00:04:51 ... This year is a little different, there are breakouts at the end of meetings and before some 00:05:10 ... please follow the code of conduct, etc, etc 00:05:16 Topic: Update on Annotations 00:06:10 Hadrien has joined #pmwg 00:06:19 present+ 00:07:22 marisa has joined #pmwg 00:07:29 Hadrien has joined #pmwg 00:07:29 MasakazuKitahara has joined #pmwg 00:07:29 jroque has joined #pmwg 00:07:29 rdeltour has joined #pmwg 00:07:29 Brady has joined #pmwg 00:08:39 Hadrien has joined #pmwg 00:08:39 MasakazuKitahara has joined #pmwg 00:08:39 jroque has joined #pmwg 00:08:39 rdeltour has joined #pmwg 00:08:39 Brady has joined #pmwg 00:09:00 George has joined #pmwg 00:09:58 Hadrien has joined #pmwg 00:09:58 MasakazuKitahara has joined #pmwg 00:09:58 jroque has joined #pmwg 00:09:58 rdeltour has joined #pmwg 00:09:58 Brady has joined #pmwg 00:10:18 George has joined #pmwg 00:11:08 Hadrien has joined #pmwg 00:11:08 MasakazuKitahara has joined #pmwg 00:11:08 jroque has joined #pmwg 00:11:08 rdeltour has joined #pmwg 00:11:08 Brady has joined #pmwg 00:11:29 George has joined #pmwg 00:11:43 rrsagent, please generate minutes 00:11:44 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/09-pmwg-minutes.html wendyreid 00:12:03 rrsagent, make logs public 00:12:11 Hadrien has joined #pmwg 00:12:11 MasakazuKitahara has joined #pmwg 00:12:11 jroque has joined #pmwg 00:12:11 rdeltour has joined #pmwg 00:12:11 Brady has joined #pmwg 00:12:16 ... then it is on to implementations 00:12:26 https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/wg-notes/annotations-ucr 00:12:31 George has joined #pmwg 00:13:32 Hadrien has joined #pmwg 00:13:32 MasakazuKitahara has joined #pmwg 00:13:32 jroque has joined #pmwg 00:13:32 rdeltour has joined #pmwg 00:13:32 Brady has joined #pmwg 00:13:35 ikkwong has joined #pmwg 00:13:53 George has joined #pmwg 00:14:31 This is George 00:14:40 ikkwong has joined #pmwg 00:14:40 Hadrien has joined #pmwg 00:14:40 MasakazuKitahara has joined #pmwg 00:14:40 jroque has joined #pmwg 00:14:40 rdeltour has joined #pmwg 00:14:40 Brady has joined #pmwg 00:14:56 test test 00:15:00 George has joined #pmwg 00:15:54 jkamata has joined #pmwg 00:15:54 ikkwong has joined #pmwg 00:15:54 Hadrien has joined #pmwg 00:15:54 MasakazuKitahara has joined #pmwg 00:15:54 jroque has joined #pmwg 00:15:54 rdeltour has joined #pmwg 00:16:05 gerald has joined #pmwg 00:16:15 George has joined #pmwg 00:17:22 duga has joined #pmwg 00:17:22 jkamata has joined #pmwg 00:17:22 ikkwong has joined #pmwg 00:17:22 Hadrien has joined #pmwg 00:17:22 MasakazuKitahara has joined #pmwg 00:17:22 jroque has joined #pmwg 00:17:22 rdeltour has joined #pmwg 00:17:44 George_ has joined #pmwg 00:19:04 duga has joined #pmwg 00:19:04 jkamata has joined #pmwg 00:19:04 ikkwong has joined #pmwg 00:19:04 Hadrien has joined #pmwg 00:19:04 MasakazuKitahara has joined #pmwg 00:19:04 jroque has joined #pmwg 00:19:04 rdeltour has joined #pmwg 00:19:26 George_ has joined #pmwg 00:19:51 jkamata has joined #pmwg 00:20:17 test 00:22:13 cristina has joined #pmwg 00:24:22 IRC is something wrong. 00:24:24 https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/epub34/annotations/index.html 00:33:00 q? 00:54:57 denis has joined #pmwg 00:56:43 Hadrien has joined #pmwg 00:56:45 scribe+ 00:56:49 present+ 00:56:52 jroque has joined #pmwg 00:56:54 present+ 00:57:11 wendyreid: we still have some time, do we want to dive into nitty gritty details? 00:57:19 LaurentLM: There is a section we didn't discuss 00:58:12 magnus: We have a reading system used for students, they used colors for hightlight. Is there anything in the spec to correlate color and meaning? 00:59:12 wendyreid: I think keyword may come in here. maybe tags is better? Color is a way people annotate, but with only 4 colors maybe tags would allow for more customization 00:59:28 ... I wonder if we should think about tags and keywords together 01:00:03 Laurent: We went back and forth on the name. They are related 01:00:40 Hadrien: But this is different, we Magnus is asking for a color means a specific thing, vs color and tags can be combined 01:01:26 magnus: So colors have specific meanings for the students 01:01:26 denis has left #pmwg 01:01:52 q+ 01:01:55 laurent: this is more like a config setting in the RS, connecting a color and a tag 01:02:33 ack wendyreid 01:02:40 ... so we have to decide if thus is in the model or just up to RS 01:03:15 Seth: So we need to make it easy to connect these things, but the data would just know the color 01:03:49 wendyreid: A lot of this will come down to what the RS wants to do and allow for 01:04:39 ... I can imagine in a group context, I may use colors and tags, I can share with other people so they understand what the notes are about. 01:04:57 ... So we should break visual display and meaning apart 01:05:27 magnus: You may also want to filter by type 01:05:36 wendyreid: any other thoughts? 01:06:26 laurent: I have some sections on filtering, as well as multiple selectors 01:06:50 ... selectors should include a precise one, but also one that will survive mutation 01:07:02 ... We also looked at extensions 01:07:41 ... Also discussed putting this file i METAINF (for embedded annotations) 01:08:06 ... This has implications for signing EPUBs, but no one does that 01:08:52 ... There is also a section on the order of importing. Basically a recommendation to not bother with automatic detection 01:09:15 ... And also a recomendation on what to do if the RS does not support a color 01:09:32 ... It would be could to have people review these 01:09:36 q? 01:09:40 ... Questions? 01:10:10 George_: Media is supported, can audio and video be annotated? 01:10:42 laurent: it is in the requirements, but I think v1 should start with text. 01:11:18 ... We might allow full image in v1, but segments of images, videos, etc, most RSes won't be able to do that. So we should push that to v2 01:11:49 ... The evolution there will be with selectors. That is all that needs to change to support that 01:12:30 ... the issue isn't how to specify, but support for it 01:12:47 wendyreid: Currently we just have textual, not audio and image? 01:13:01 laurent: yes, the big issue is how to embed 01:13:49 wendyreid: A lot of annotation is currently done via images, anything with a stylus does that 01:14:12 ... so we probably need a way to embed this in annotations 01:14:27 ... it may be hand drawn text, images, etc 01:15:07 laurent: there are two issues, one is export file format, and how do we put that in an epub 01:15:18 q+ 01:15:23 ack duga 01:15:26 scribe+ 01:16:04 duga: Question about the stylus drawing, we never quite knew how to attach to the text in a way that was meaningful. If the content split or was adjusted, it was lost 01:16:15 ... attachment was a challenge 01:17:00 wendyreid: We would drop a selector in that position. If you drew a circle, we couldn't show the annotation, but just drop an icon to show the original image 01:17:19 ... so still selector based to the first point 01:17:37 ... so the problem isn't really solved 01:17:54 hadrien: it is very device dependent 01:18:44 Bobby6 has joined #pmwg 01:19:12 Bobby has joined #pmwg 01:19:15 ... It is more like a bookmark, it is not as specific as textual. But this is now growing 01:19:39 ... So worth investigating 01:20:42 laurent: Also commenting in other languages is important. We can support plan text and markdown. Do we need html to support ruby for annotations in Japanese? I have heard that this is uncommon in comments 01:21:06 ... which would be great since not everyone supports html in comments 01:21:30 ... and markdown works for basic styling 01:22:00 makoto: if you want to publish annotations, then ruby would be required 01:22:12 ... so this is out of scope at the moment 01:22:15 ... ? 01:22:48 laurent: there was a case of an author wanting to publish a book with their annotations 01:23:03 makoto: someimes the annotations are more important 01:23:08 q+ 01:24:00 wendyreid: In terms of publishing with annotations, wouldn't these be embedded in the content? This is part of the book 01:24:01 q- 01:24:07 q+ 01:24:08 q+ 01:25:24 seth: So if a famous author is editing their own book, annotates it, then send it on to the publisher the natural way is annotations in the epub 01:25:35 ack shiestyle 01:25:46 ... so are we creating a world where there is a seperate system to make these annotations? 01:26:13 shiestyle: Actually image based characters are more important than ruby 01:26:23 ack George_ 01:26:29 ... but I am not sure about the publihing the annotations case 01:27:31 George_: Annotations point in to the book, footnotes point out. Second if we are not using html and someone inserts an image, is it just a jpeg with no alt text, etc? 01:28:19 laurent: So for image annotations? For body we could easily add alt text as plain text in the json 01:28:36 ... with the body as an object, we can add any property 01:28:45 wendyreid: Thank you for the update 01:42:22 present+ 01:45:00 present+ 01:55:56 DaleRogers has joined #pmwg 02:03:08 duga has joined #pmwg 02:03:09 MasakazuKitahara has joined #pmwg 02:03:24 present+ 02:04:12 present+ 02:04:38 present+ 02:05:01 Topic: ISO and Liaising with ISO/IEC JTC1/SC34 02:05:31 jkamata has joined #pmwg 02:05:51 hiro has joined #pmwg 02:06:02 seth2 has joined #pmwg 02:06:04 PUBLUS_Toyoda has joined #pmwg 02:07:29 scribe+ 02:07:35 gerald has left #pmwg 02:08:27 present+ 02:08:43 Hadrien has joined #pmwg 02:08:48 present+ 02:08:52 present+ 02:08:53 present+ 02:09:01 present+ 02:09:16 wendyreid: Two things to discuss, first is ISO port of epub 3.3 to ISO 02:09:24 ... By which I mean the full family of scpes 02:09:26 present+ 02:09:50 ... we agree it should be done, but timing has been an issue, due to some EU complications 02:10:04 jroque has joined #pmwg 02:10:13 present+ 02:11:05 ... we now have some info about that. There remain some unknowns, the short description is the EU a11y act caused a letter to go out about publishing standards, specifically EPUB. 02:11:24 ... This is all good, and it means the EU will adopt EPUB. 02:12:08 Magnus has joined #pmwg 02:12:35 ... the problem is kicking off ISO process may cause problems with that adoption. We have some questions - what exactly is the problem? Just starting it? voting? etc 02:12:53 ... And does this apply to everything or just a11y spec? 02:13:07 q+ 02:13:11 ack cristina 02:13:12 ... we are still trying to figure out who is talking to each other at ISO and w3c 02:13:28 cristina: This all sounds accurate 02:14:00 ... The committee needs to wait if there is an ISO spec in process 02:14:39 ... Second, the commision will accept the w3c standard 02:15:05 ... So I am glad the commission has contacted w3c so we can better understand the timeline 02:15:57 makoto: We also have Yong-Sang from ??? [some committee] 02:16:08 ... Perhaps he can comment 02:16:28 s/??? [some committee]/JTC7 SC34/ 02:16:32 Yong-sang: I have only heard about this from you (makoto) 02:16:41 makoto: Can you give our position? 02:17:25 Yong-sang: EPUB a11y is important to ISO, as members can adopt 3.3 as a national standard 02:17:59 ... This is why we really want these in ISO, so we can adopt these important specs 02:19:00 Daihei has joined #pmwg 02:19:01 makoto: I have been a member of SC34 and w3c and epub for decades 02:19:10 present+ 02:19:27 ... I will be chair of SC34 shortly 02:20:01 ... I have a new company working on bringing LCP to Japan 02:20:32 ... LCP is not w3c rec, it was created by IDPF and Readium. It is now part of SC34 02:21:38 ... There are a lot of committees, including one on AI. ISO is the right place to discuss things that matter to a number of countries. 02:22:21 ... We are currently looking at scrolling comics, EPUB, LCP 02:22:56 ... there are a number of groups under SC 34 02:23:06 ... [see presentation for list] 02:24:11 cristina has joined #pmwg 02:24:23 Bobby has joined #PMWG 02:24:36 ... we have some specs on EPUB3 preservation 02:24:40 it is worth to highlight that the EAA has a global impact as all international organizations willing to sell in Europe should comply with the EAA requirements and standards 02:25:22 ... AHG1 is for scrollable comics, but it does not make specs 02:26:21 ... it could create terms of reference that could make a spec, but it is hard (multiple countries have to agree and nominate 5 experts) 02:26:40 ... This is recreated yearly (it is an ad hoc group, so not permanent) 02:27:38 ... Currently there is no proper relationship between this group and SC34. I would like to present documents from AHG1 02:28:09 ... I am looking into filing documents for this now 02:28:37 ... The current specs at ISO are very old 02:28:46 ... I have not been able to update these 02:29:13 ... we also have epub 3.0.1, these are also very old, but are listed as current 02:29:33 ... same applies to epub a11y 02:30:15 ... Now to summarize normal vs. fast track process 02:31:19 ... Normal has lots of specific rules that have to be followed (e.g. May is not really used) 02:31:31 q+ 02:31:37 ... PAS or fast track is used for moving things standardized elsewhere 02:32:01 ack wendyreid 02:32:23 wendyreid: Question - does this mean we don't have to do editorial work to change language? 02:33:02 makoto: correct. I don't know where that idea came from. There is a cover page that will be handled by ISO, other minor things 02:33:15 MasakazuKitahara has joined #pmwg 02:33:38 laurent: So pagination since it is PDF there will be some changes, that is ok? 02:34:25 makoto: Proposal - SC34 should withdraw the old specs 02:34:38 ... This is really bad, these should not be the current version 02:35:16 ... I strongly advise that EPUB 3.3 and a11y 1.1 be submitted with NO changes 02:35:20 ryokik has joined #pmwg 02:35:38 ... Since I will be chair, I hope we can establish a better relationship 02:36:02 wendyreid: Thank you, this is good to hear. We were worried about making the changes, so that makes this a lot easier 02:36:34 q+ 02:36:37 ... the existing relationship was with publishing @ w3c, so I would like to understand if that still includes us since we are under that 02:36:41 q+ 02:36:45 ack cristina 02:36:47 ... I am very interested in the scrolled comics work 02:36:57 ack AvneeshSingh 02:37:00 q+ cristina 02:37:17 AvneeshSingh: we are aware of the ISO process and the requirements 02:37:43 ... We are currently wrapped up in the political issues. Not everyone is in the same loop 02:38:14 ... There are discussions with EU, and with ISO, and with w3c and ISO and these are all different conversations 02:38:36 ... I am concerned that we are having all these discussions without a proper strategy in place 02:38:52 ... I am tires of the adhoc relationship, we need a proper strategy 02:39:24 makoto: In the context of wcag I have had a lot of problems with the EU. 02:40:07 q+ 02:40:09 ack cristina 02:40:15 ... Many japanese changes have been rejected 02:40:34 ... my opinion is that a special relationship with w3c and EU is a problem 02:41:05 cristina: This is really a national issue, but it is also a business issue. There is a BG that needs to be involved 02:41:08 seth2 has joined #pmwg 02:41:18 present+ 02:41:57 wendyreid: One challenge has been that we don't have all the information 02:42:19 ... I did know not that the commission and w3c had been talking 02:42:36 ... and that the commission and w3c have been talking 02:42:54 ... this is a big deal, but we really need to know who has been talking 02:42:54 q+ 02:43:09 q+ 02:43:15 ... and it is very odd that people are talking and not including the chairs 02:43:51 ack mgarrish 02:43:52 bobby has joined #PMWG 02:43:59 ... so I think we can move ahead with liason with sc34 for now 02:44:09 ... and try to figure out the rest 02:44:35 mgarrish: We really need to get to a place where these can be kept in sync 02:45:17 ... I was editing the metadata for conservation document, and I had to keep saying what was different between these specs 02:45:21 ack cristina 02:45:24 q+ 02:45:27 ... the current space is simply not sustainable 02:45:53 cristina: When we presented to the commission it was as w3c 02:46:29 ... we have had a problem with people contacting w3c and not getting a response 02:46:31 ack wendyreid 02:46:33 ... this is an opportunity we don't want to muss 02:46:38 s/muss/miss/ 02:47:58 wendyreid: Pedantic question - we have epub 3.3. and a11y 1.1, but we are working on 3.4 and 1.2. If we publish one version, can we leave 3.3 with the EU? Or can we not publish anything? 02:48:16 makoto: The fast track process is quick 02:48:33 laurent: How many countries have to say yes? 02:48:38 q+ 02:48:50 ack ivan 02:48:57 makoto: I don't know. But many will just say yes, because they lose voting writes if they fail to vote 02:49:32 ivan: Makoto, as far as I know, we have to go through an editorial process, right? 02:49:49 ... that process means going between the two formats is a lot of work 02:49:59 makoto: I strongly believe that is incorrect 02:50:27 ivan: WCAG had to go through this painful process, why are we different? 02:50:47 makoto: I reviewed the wcag ISO with w3c and the only difference is the cover sheet and index 02:51:57 q+ 02:52:19 Yong-sang: JWG7 would like to take the responsibility for the editorial changes. We would like to pursue with just adding the cover page, but if there is a different position, then JWG7 would like to take the entire conversion effort 02:52:35 ... Just format work 02:52:51 ... Without changing the requirements from the original spec 02:53:00 ack ivan 02:53:20 ivan: Thank you, it will be an enormous help 02:53:39 ... I don't know who to contact for a once and for all final statement on what we need to do 02:53:52 ... we keep hearing different things 02:54:07 ... who at ISO has the official role to make such an official statement? 02:54:23 ... if it is just the cover page, then this radically changes the situation 02:54:48 q+ 02:54:59 ... Then the 3.4 question becomes more interesting 02:55:16 ... but where should we go for a proper answer? 02:55:43 makoto: Since I will be chair I should set up a meeting with ISO Geneva and this group 02:55:51 ... how does that sound 02:56:46 ack cristina 02:56:59 Yong-sang: we have 2 very strong options - [something[ and also makoto can talk [someone] 02:57:13 q+ 02:57:25 s/[something[/talk to the technical program manager/ 02:57:45 s/[someone]/to the editorial team at Geneva/ 02:57:47 ack ivan 02:57:50 cristina: [something i missed[ 02:58:31 s/[something i missed[/The EU will not publish an official standard, they will adopt the W3C version/ 02:58:54 ivan: The message I have is don't publish an ISO standard. So my question is can we work in parallel? Can we leave the w3c spec alone, and start working on ISO, but not publish until the EU is ready? 02:59:20 ... if we do this with 3.4 since it is a good 1.5 years out 02:59:29 q+ 02:59:45 q+ Makoto 02:59:46 cristina: we should organize a meeting with the commission to answer that 02:59:56 ack AvneeshSingh 03:00:34 cristina: I think it is important understanding if the spec is alignment with the commission 03:01:13 AvneeshSingh: Fasttrack will start after 3.4 after it is done. I don't understand how we could start it now? 03:01:19 q? 03:01:22 ... it has to be rec track first 03:01:48 avneesh: epub 3.4 /a11 1.2 are rec-track 03:01:50 ack Mak 03:01:52 ... I would like to get to an arrangement where EU isn't lagging behind 03:01:52 q+ 03:02:01 q+ 03:02:21 makoto: I have a fundamental concern that giving EU special status is unfair to other countries 03:02:43 q+ 03:02:49 ... I respect the work done, but it doesn't mean the EU can decline what other countries do 03:02:59 ack ivan 03:03:04 q+ Yong-sang 03:03:19 ack shiestyle 03:03:35 ivan: I am not sure what is a problem, re AvneeshSingh 03:03:45 shiestyle: How long does it take 03:03:59 makoto: 8 months plus bit, so say 1 year 03:04:05 q+ 03:04:09 ... if we want to delay we can request that 03:04:19 shiestyle: Can we stop publishing? 03:04:44 makoto: you can always withdraw at any time before publishing, even if all countries have voted yes 03:05:00 shiestyle: so it is canceled? 03:05:02 ack cristina 03:05:08 wendyreid: Yes, but we could restart 03:05:43 cristina: I don't think EU will stop. The question is an international one, so we can sell everywhere 03:05:55 q+ makoto 03:06:14 ... I am not so sure that everyone in Japan agrees. This needs to be a business decision 03:06:25 q? 03:06:36 zakim, who is here? 03:06:36 Present: Brady, wendyreid, shiestyle, toshiakikoike, AvneeshSingh, rdeltour, MasakazuKitahara, mgarrish, gpellegrino, jroque, George, Hadrien, George_, cristina, marisa, 03:06:40 ... DaleRogers, seth, duga, jkamata, Daihei, ivan 03:06:40 On IRC I see bobby, ryokik, MasakazuKitahara, cristina, Daihei, jroque, Hadrien, PUBLUS_Toyoda, hiro, jkamata, duga, DaleRogers, George_, rdeltour, ikkwong, marisa, gpellegrino, 03:06:40 ... mgarrish, AvneeshSingh, RRSAgent, Zakim, wendyreid, shiestyle, tzviya, ivan 03:07:10 present+ Yong-Sang_Cho 03:07:16 wendyreid: let us drop the international issue. This is about logistics. We don't have all the info yet, so we need to figure that out first 03:07:23 ack Yong-sang 03:07:48 yong-sang: I am curious about the EU standard you are refering to? What standard do you mean? 03:07:50 present+ charlesl 03:08:18 cristina: There is not standard for ebooks, they will adopt a technical spec 03:08:42 q+ 03:08:55 yong-sang: Usually the ISO standard is auto (maybe) adopted by EU 03:09:21 ack George_ 03:09:31 ... We should make epub a living standard 03:10:01 George_: I love that, it sounds great. I want to move things forward in parallel and avoid the sequential nature 03:10:27 present+ ikkwong 03:10:28 ... I don't like having to get it locked down, then sent to ISO, then having issues that can't be resolved 03:10:47 ack mako 03:10:54 ... getting things to move forward smoothly would be grat 03:11:17 ack AvneeshSingh 03:11:24 makoto: when epub 3 was submitted there were a lot of requests for changes that I resisted 03:11:57 AvneeshSingh: We need a proper relationship with ISO, figuring that out will solve these issues 03:12:13 ... To ivan it was about 3.4 going to ISO 03:12:19 George_: I misunderstood 03:12:36 seth2 has joined #pmwg 03:12:42 s/George_:/ivan:/ 03:13:14 wendyreid: I have reached out to see who I should talk to, apparently it is Rigo. We need to figure out the parameters on all 3 sides. Would be great to have all 3 in a room 03:13:28 ... we do not want to favor one group over another 03:13:57 q+ 03:13:59 q+ 03:14:12 makoto: Do you feel comfortable with an official relationship between us and SC34? 03:14:14 ack George_ 03:14:20 wendyreid: No problem, sounds good 03:14:40 George_: I hope the ISO publication is something that is not in PDF would be important to me 03:14:55 ack ivan 03:15:31 ivan: Two things. One is I hope we are talking about the 3 rec track docs, and not unbundling 03:16:43 ... second, to broaden what George_ said, my understanding is that what is published in w3c and iso the two texts should be identical 03:17:38 ... I know it is hard to get ISO docs into the public as html. I don't hold my breath though. W3C will still publish as html and make it available, so I don't really care 03:18:07 wendyreid: What do we have to do to get the realtionship done? 03:18:23 makoto: We just have to file a form. We just need to find someone to sign it 03:18:57 Daihei: What are the next steps on the internation relations side? 03:19:16 wendyreid: Next step is to find out who is talking to who. Then maybe schedule a meeting where we can all meet 03:19:44 ... For instance, understanding timelines would be very helpful 03:20:40 Daihei: From the global publishing side, the reason we need to take into account EU is the eaa has already been enacted 03:21:02 ... those a11y requirements affect the entire global community 03:21:29 ... The global system is interconnected, we have to give due consideration to all members, including the EU 03:21:47 wendyreid: That is what has made this so difficult 03:22:02 ... we understand the importance of all sides here. 03:22:13 q+ 03:22:26 ack duga 03:23:01 duga: Love having this conversation over and over again, I want to have this joint meeting, I would like to see that the EU has been saying "don't go to ISO until..." we need to know the "until" 03:23:04 q+ 03:23:17 ... it doesn't have to be an exact date, but we need to know an exact date 03:23:36 ack George_ 03:23:50 George_: The tricky thing is getting someone to speak with any authority 03:23:52 q+ 03:24:11 ack seth 03:24:12 Regarding the discussion around whether we are required to apply the editorial grammar rules when using PAS: 03:24:12 In ISO/IEC Directives, Part 1 – Consolidated JTC 1 Supplement 2023 03:24:12 https://iec.ch/system/files/2023-10/Consolidated_JTC1_Supplement_2023.pdf 03:24:12 "F.3.4.2 PAS Submission” 03:24:13 Paragraph 5: 03:24:13 The format and content of the submitted specification are not required to comply with the 03:24:13 ISO/IEC Directives Part 2. 03:24:49 LaurentLM has joined #pmwg 03:24:57 seth2: I have no context for a lot of this, but I did some research on fast track process 03:24:57 q+ 03:25:05 ... [see link] 03:25:13 ack ivan 03:25:16 ... basically contents does not have to be updated 03:25:46 ivan: The problem is, that used to be the case for sure. The info I got 2 years ago is that ISO changed this 03:26:10 ... so we have to check that that is still the official statement 03:26:40 makoto: Lots of things happened to normal process, but not to fast track 03:28:12 wendyreid: Time for lunch! Don't get lost 03:28:41 rrsagent, draft minutes 03:28:43 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/09-pmwg-minutes.html ivan 04:29:32 MasakazuKitahara has joined #pmwg 04:30:05 zakim, who is here? 04:30:05 Present: Brady, wendyreid, shiestyle, toshiakikoike, AvneeshSingh, rdeltour, MasakazuKitahara, mgarrish, gpellegrino, jroque, George, Hadrien, George_, cristina, marisa, 04:30:08 ... DaleRogers, seth, duga, jkamata, Daihei, ivan, Yong-Sang_Cho, charlesl, ikkwong 04:30:08 On IRC I see MasakazuKitahara, rdeltour, ikkwong, marisa, gpellegrino, RRSAgent, Zakim, wendyreid, tzviya, ivan 04:30:23 shiestyle has joined #pmwg 04:33:02 Topic: Update on Digital Comics 04:33:20 present+ 04:33:33 present+ 04:34:02 taka has joined #pmwg 04:34:40 Hadrien has joined #pmwg 04:36:23 scribe+ 04:36:34 ryokik has joined #pmwg 04:36:48 shiestyle: We'll start the afternoon session, update on digital comics, Hadrien has a presentation 04:37:08 Hadrien: Tried to summarize where we are right now, afternoon sessions will be related to comics 04:37:22 ... not necessarily have the discussions now, but set the table for those later discussions 04:37:37 [share slides] 04:38:06 Hadrien: if I had to summarize why we're doing this at all, EPUB is also for comics, not great for comics 04:38:15 ... it shapes a lot of the current work 04:38:26 jkamata has joined #pmwg 04:38:26 ... when we look at adoption of EPUB for comics, it varies by country 04:38:50 ... in Japan, it's an interchange format, you get what you need and discard the rest 04:38:58 present+ 04:39:07 ... in Europe and the US, it's different, ebookstores use EPUB as is for comics 04:39:15 ... not just interchange, but also display 04:39:35 ... what we've also seen, many of those stores also accept PDF 04:39:55 ... specialized stores, ones that specialize in comics, many don't use EPUB at all, some may ingest it 04:40:21 ... in South Korea, they pushed for a TTA standard (local), for continuously scrolled comics, they consciously chose not to use EPUB 04:40:28 ... EPUB is not the default standard for comics 04:40:49 ... it's used, but there is no single place where it's the standard, it always lives alongside other formats 04:41:10 ... example of new comics store, SweetShop, they sell PDF 04:41:27 ... other one, Panels, more EU, they'll be using CBZ/PDF 04:41:48 ... speciality stores not using EPUB 04:41:54 ... and why are people not using EPUB? 04:42:07 ... it's a number of things, in some cases, people think PDF is good enough 04:42:12 duga has joined #pmwg 04:42:21 ... it has native support 04:42:43 ... there has been a community standard, CBZ, which has been out for a long time 04:42:51 ... good enough for people for a long time 04:42:59 ... those have played a role in EPUB adoption 04:43:14 ... EPUB makes it hard to work with images, we can talk about this in the afternoon 04:43:21 ... we don't provide clear industry guidelines 04:43:39 ... different places have different ways to use EPUB, EBPAJ, more like a template 04:43:48 ... no guideline to "properly" do comics in EPUB 04:43:57 ... this seems more necessary for comics vs other publications 04:44:23 ... neither PDF or CBZ can support continuously scrolled comics 04:44:37 ... places where EPUB is better, other formats don't have spread control 04:44:48 ... spreads are under and over specified 04:45:10 ... last area we are better, metadata and semantics 04:45:21 ... we have useful, specialized metadata 04:45:38 ... even EPUB basic metadata, but we don't have the full metadata for comics yet 04:45:51 ... we have semantics from DPUB ARIA, etc. 04:45:56 ... need more added for comics 04:46:09 ... where we are now with EPUB 3.4 04:46:25 ... images in spine, contentious topic, but ask questions for our discussion later 04:46:38 ... we have AVIF and WEBP support, modern image format support 04:46:45 ... moving in the right direction 04:46:57 LaurentLM has joined #pmwg 04:46:57 ... we agreed on "roll" as a layout value 04:47:15 ... we haven't agreed on how to deal with those documents, what is in the spine 04:47:37 ... we have open issues on spreads, there are a few things that need to be addressed 04:47:50 ... comics specific metadata 04:47:58 ... semantics, need more discussion 04:48:09 ... some progress, lots to discuss 04:48:12 q+ 04:48:26 ... let's talk about images in spine, primary need is to identify an image for a specific page 04:48:32 fantasai has joined #pmwg 04:48:37 ... what we need is an ability to say "where is the image" 04:48:45 ... might be less contentious than images in spine 04:48:50 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/09-pmwg-minutes.html fantasai 04:48:57 q? 04:49:00 ... images in spine currently possible with fallback 04:49:21 ... usage today, we know in Japan do images in spine without fallback, there are also publishers using images in spine with fallback 04:49:31 ... it's not new, people use it today 04:49:51 ... questions we need to ask, should we allow them 04:50:01 ack ivan 04:50:40 Hadrien: Can we allow them? Do we do it for roll documents, pre-paginated, if we do it, how far 04:50:47 ... if we don't allow them, how can we make things easier? 04:50:56 bobby has joined #PMWG 04:51:03 q+ ivan 04:51:12 ... we need to test things out in several different ways, if it was clearer where to find the images, maybe that would be better 04:51:27 ... we know there is usage of fallbacks, it is in use in Japan, EU 04:51:32 ... there are many that use it right now 04:51:43 ... we might need to use a new property, or lean into what people are doing 04:51:56 denkeni has joined #pmwg 04:52:03 ... roll documents, we're blocked a bit by images in spine, we either say we do images in spine, or fallback 04:52:13 ... everything else would be a missed opportunity 04:52:29 ... if we force HTML in the spine, it's complicated for the sake of being complicated 04:52:46 ... expectation gap between what producers are doing and EPUB 04:53:07 ... expectation on the market that first page is displayed on its own, regardless of spread info 04:53:21 ... but we don't say anything about it in the spec, we should align with expectations 04:53:47 ... what does it mean when we have page-spread-*, the spec says it is meaningful, production differs 04:53:53 ... some people always include it 04:54:09 ... it means they want control, but there is a mismatch 04:54:19 ... I don't think it is a bigthing to solve but should be 04:54:30 ... how much control do we want to give over spreads? 04:54:38 ... values are overused or problematic 04:55:13 ... for semantics, we inherit many values from AHL WG, mostly to describe contents of a page, but not used much outside 04:55:39 ... there is a need for panel by panel, Amazon asked content producers to provide, but they need to use specialized software, there is interest in panel by panel 04:55:44 ... shame people don't use EPUB 04:55:53 jroque has joined #pmwg 04:55:56 ... we also have the ability to indicate volume and chapter 04:56:22 ... in Japan chapters are sold, but elsewhere it's volumes containing chapters, but we can leverage that 04:56:46 ... we need new things for continuous scrolled comics, we have seasons, episodes, issues 04:56:58 ... it could be relevant in a variety of markets 04:57:24 ... metadata, we need additional metadata, similar to document divisions 04:57:29 ... to say an EPUB is a volume of multiple chapters 04:57:37 ... question of EPUB or ONIX 04:57:58 ... we've had people ask for this, need series, story arc 04:58:10 q? 04:58:15 ... just wanted to set the table for other discussions 04:58:16 ack ivan 04:58:20 ack ivan 04:58:24 q+ 04:58:52 ivan: General question, before we dive into the technical discussion, lets say we solve all these issues, has the boat sailed on adoption? 04:59:07 ... would we change the picture you painted at the beginning, most people don't use EPUB 04:59:39 Hadrien: Good question, for paginated comics, we may have missed the boat, but for continuous scrolled comics, things are behind closed doors, there's no cross-platform standard 04:59:51 ... I could be wrong about paginated comics, but things can changed 05:00:30 ivan: To be more specific, we have the W3C process, if we do all the changes in some way or other, will we even have enough meaningful implementations to pass CR transition 05:00:54 Hadrien: Images in spine, we probably would, many of those reading systems don't consume EPUB 05:01:11 ivan: If I wanted to be a purist, it would be irrelevant to transition 05:01:26 Hadrien: I'd need to look into it, it's supported in some reading systems, two might be possible 05:01:35 ... for roll, that's new, we'd need new implementations 05:01:43 ... for spreads, its aligning with what people already do 05:01:57 ... semantics, what do we expect RSs to do with this? 05:02:21 ... seasons or episodes may offer breaks in the scroll, but its an unknown 05:02:40 ... metadata, depends on our expectations for RSs 05:03:14 ivan: What we used in 3.3 for metadata, there would be at least 2 systems that make a valid use of the metadata, how they use or display the content is not in our control, but if its useful to have it 05:03:53 Hadrien: The state of EPUB metadata is complex, there's cases where ONIX is preferred, the main use is sideloading, if we target that, we could have implementations, but it would be doable 05:04:17 ack fantasai 05:04:17 fantasai, you wanted to ask about slides 05:04:17 shiestyle: If they are optional features, they don't need to meet the criteria? 05:04:23 fantasai: Will the slides be posted? 05:04:26 Hadrien: Afterwards 05:04:28 ack duga 05:05:01 duga: I want to disagree with Ivan about implementations, a reading system is more than a device, if a reading system can accept features and eventually display them, that's an implementation 05:05:01 q+ koike 05:05:28 ivan: I don't think we disagreed 05:05:52 duga: My question then, some of these things, finding the images in the HTML, these feel like heuristics 05:06:11 ... I don't know if these belong in the spec, or a separate document, if you want to do this optimized image thing, look here 05:06:18 ... does this need to be in the main spec 05:06:40 Hadrien: I think that's a good question, we may need a best practice document for comics, I agree, some of this is heuristics 05:07:04 ... I agree that not everything should end up in the spec 05:07:20 ... it could be in a complementary documents, recommended semantics and metadata 05:07:22 ... less fragmentation 05:07:33 ... even in single markets we have fragmentation 05:07:40 ack koike 05:08:32 koike: Question, implementation for images in spine, if Voyager's and Kadokawa's reading systems implemented, would it satisfy W3C's standard? 05:08:34 q+ 05:08:41 scribe+ 05:08:48 Hadrien: These are already implemented? 05:09:04 shiestyle: I think they are, if both of us have these features 05:09:21 ivan: I don't know the internals, if they are independently developed, they meet the requirements 05:09:34 Hadrien: And it works in Thorium as well 05:09:39 ack wendy 05:09:48 wendyreid: Had this discussion with EPUB 3.3 05:10:00 wendyreid: There's the W3C implementation bar: 2 independent impl of a standard 05:10:10 wendyreid: We also have discussion with 3.3, we agreed that, 2 was not quite enough for publishing. 05:10:19 wendyreid: Because of the huge diversity of reading systems and reading platforms 05:10:33 wendyreid: It's great to have 2, but 2 is not enough to reflect that feature being well-supported 05:10:52 wendyreid: If we have 2-3, it means we cleared W3C bar, but on the way to our own declaration of well-supported 05:10:59 wendyreid: I think us meeting the W3C standard is relatively simple 05:11:08 q? 05:11:12 wendyreid: it's more whether publishing industry supports that we need to worry about 05:11:45 Hadrien: I might be wrong, I think we'll have more than 2 for AVIF, it's more than that for images in spine, quite a bit more, speads and so on 05:12:02 ... there's always a risk when we introduce new things what the support is 05:12:25 shiestyle: Any questions before we get deeper into this? 05:12:42 subtopic: Images in spine 05:12:58 shiestyle: The first topic is images in spine 05:13:32 Hadrien: I think this has been contentious, we've discussed for a long time, it came up when we first discussed FXL 05:14:00 q+ 05:14:04 ... we know that images in spine are used, we also know that people have issues with them, mainly for accessibility, I kind of feel that we're stuck in the same discussion loop 05:14:12 ... we have the same arguments for or against 05:14:18 ... we never manage to move forward 05:14:43 ... we're stuck as a result with the status quo, my questions I hope can move us towards a solution for this 05:14:57 ... we have some options within the spec, other options might require changes to the spec 05:15:21 ... we should avoid the status quo, I don't think it's good to have a difference between the spec and the industry 05:15:24 ack duga 05:15:45 duga: So you often point out that there aren't really accessible comics, or they are hard to do 05:16:02 ... I agree for comics, it doesn't make sense for XHTML, but for FXL we do have accessible content 05:16:26 q? 05:16:31 ... in that perspective, it is an accessibility issue for FXL, this subset of content is huge, comics is a big industry 05:16:32 q+ 05:16:43 ... for children's books, it's good that that content is accessible today 05:16:51 ... people are making use of these features 05:17:01 ... it's not fair to disregard the accessibility aspect 05:17:32 ... but if we do something for comics, that is weird, but we have rolled content, not sure if we should forget about HTML in this respect either 05:17:51 ... the other question, you listed two options, image in spine or image in spine with fallback HTML 05:18:02 ... would HTML in spine be illegal for roll comics? 05:18:20 Hadrien: Not saying it should be illegal, it would be disappointing to those producing that content 05:18:41 ... we shouldn't force people to put images in spine, but shouldn't force HTML either 05:19:00 q+ 05:19:00 ... would negatively impact adoption 05:19:01 ack LaurentLM 05:19:03 q+ 05:19:28 LaurentLM: In every specification, certain things are triggered by certain metadata, roll comics are triggered by specific metadata 05:19:30 q+ 05:19:56 Sam has joined #pmwg 05:19:56 ... we could say accessibility of scrolled comics is different, if we say we want to do the same for paginated comics, or do something different 05:20:07 ... we could extend the time of solving the accessibility problem 05:20:23 ... we don't have that content on the market, we don't know what an accessible comic needs to look like 05:20:28 ... more research needs to be done 05:20:42 q+ 05:20:50 toshiakikoike has joined #pmwg 05:20:55 Hadrien: There is a difference between partially accessible comics vs fully accessible comics, we don't know what makes a fully accessible comic 05:21:04 LaurentLM: Just adding HTML to comics doesn't make it accessible 05:21:08 ack rdeltour 05:21:16 rdeltour: I have a simple question, does it have to be EPUB 05:21:50 ... images in spine, it creates hurdles in interoperability, could it be a separate standard, a profile, something that is different? 05:22:16 ... another question about CBZ, basically a list of images in a zip, could be we somehow have a hybrid CBZepub? 05:22:27 ... could an epub be a CBZ or vice versa 05:23:11 Hadrien: First question is good, we see some places saying EPUB is not the solution. But one option to discuss, do we do something more like web publciations, SK is doing JSON with metadata and some controls 05:23:19 ... it goes to Ivan's question, has the boat sailed 05:23:41 ... but for some markets, EPUB is huge, like Japan, we can't pretend people don't use it 05:24:09 ... for CBZ, the order of images matter, the .epub may not be recognized by CBZ readers 05:24:22 ... you could name images in a way that works for CBZ 05:24:30 ... you could make something that works for both 05:24:39 ... or a packaged web publication that could also be an EPUB at the same time 05:24:47 q+ 05:24:47 ... maybe a little too creative there 05:24:52 ack wendy 05:25:03 wendyreid: I think I share Romain's question, does this have to be EPUB? 05:25:17 wendyreid: One of the underlying parts of this discussion is, philosophically, what think EPUB is? 05:25:44 wendyreid: Do we think that, as the group that maintains EPUB, who do we serve and who do we follow? 05:25:53 wendyreid: We try to strike balance between what industry wants and what readers need 05:26:00 wendyreid: And lately also government regulations 05:26:15 wendyreid: On the surface, about images in spine, questions what do we want EPUB to be 05:26:26 wendyreid: Many of us fought for EPUB to be the accessible standard, accessible by default. 05:26:42 wendyreid: Images in spine is where we need to make decision, in order of priority, where do we put things? 05:26:48 wendyreid: Does accessibility trump everything? 05:26:56 seth2 has joined #pmwg 05:27:00 wendyreid: Disappointing that some markets didn't choose EPUB as the standard, for variety of reasons 05:27:12 wendyreid: But companies releasing apps with PDF or CBZ are not thinking about accessibility 05:27:14 +q 05:27:17 wendyreid: in their application or business model 05:27:24 wendyreid: That's a choice that they made in their business 05:27:29 wendyreid: But do we want to make that choice for EPUB 05:27:32 present+ seth2 05:27:56 wendyreid: We know there are many inaccessible EPUBs out there, because businesses made that decision. But for EPUB, you have to make a *choice* to make inaccessible. We give all the tools, they choose not use. 05:28:06 wendyreid: But here we would give them a tool to make inaccessible content. 05:28:13 ack fantasai 05:28:13 wendyreid: Make that possible. 05:28:41 fantasai: What are the implementation challenges with having images in spine vs in HTML 05:29:18 Hadrien: Apps that implement this, they don't use webviews, they use platform APIs, with HTML they need to find ways to render those images, if its SVG they need to rasterize the images 05:29:28 ... not saying they should do that, but that is what they do 05:29:50 fantasai: Is there or has their been an effort to create a profile for HTML that prioritizes images? 05:30:20 Hadrien: Japan has it, it's not used by everyone even in Japan, it's something you know if you're in industry, but it has no official status 05:30:31 ... the closest would be the EBPAJ profile 05:30:40 fantasai: Would it make sense to standardize on that? 05:31:09 Hadrien: Possibly, it falls on the line of having an alternate profile or best practices document 05:31:50 fantasai: The HTML file would need to conform in a spec, it would validate, for reading systems would know to parse as an image, but we have the additional structure, the framework for creating accessible content is still there 05:32:04 ack ivan 05:32:10 Hadrien: The reality would be it might be fragmented, but would move people in the right direction possibly 05:32:30 ivan: To put things in perspective, the approach Romain suggested is how we published the audiobook standard 05:32:47 ... it follows the rules of Publication Manifest, it's an analogy 05:33:26 ... a very different point, at some point in your slides, image in the spine fallback to HTML as a solution, there were two other approaches discussed, one was suggested by Matt 05:33:48 ... referring to the fact you could put the alt into the package, it's legal in the spec, 05:34:04 ... other possibility was to include the accessibility info in the image itself through metadata 05:34:31 Hadrien: The first is to use meta:refines, refine the image using it's id to provide description 05:34:37 ... one way to do it 05:34:43 ... those have been discussed before 05:34:48 ack gpellegrino 05:35:24 q+ 05:35:38 gpellegrino: We can have images in spine with fallbacks, I suggest we leave the spec as is, we advise on how to make comics 05:35:44 ack rdeltour 05:36:17 rdeltour: For the sake of completeness, in one of the slides you mention was the objective was to link a page to an image, maybe it's also possible to use the nav doc, may also be used to link the pages to the document 05:36:22 q- 05:36:26 ... not sure if that works, maybe worth looking into 05:36:30 ack seth 05:36:49 seth: I have missed some of the previous meetings, we've heard a lot from reading systems people, I never hear from publishers 05:37:12 ... I want to know what the issues are with tooling to add the necessary accessibility info to documents 05:37:20 ... it can't just be there's no interest 05:37:30 ... there must be challenges 05:37:55 ... is there a gap in the EPUB production process that blocks this being possible 05:38:22 q+ 05:38:27 Hadrien: A page in a comic can have a lot of information, you'd need to describe each panel, and even within panels 05:38:46 ... comics are visual by nature, for screen readers, you'd need to produce text in the right order 05:38:56 ... almost a transformation of the content, like a novelization 05:39:06 ... there's a huge complexity in how to produce the thing 05:39:17 ... do you need to get the author involved, are you following the author's intent? 05:39:20 Ozawa has joined #pmwg 05:39:27 ... lots of open questions and cost associated 05:39:57 ... if the resulting text is just a huge block of text, it's not functional either, it would need to be a full HTML document with everything you'd need 05:39:59 q+ 05:40:28 Hadrien: Some of it is cost, some of it is technical, there's needs beyond just screenreader users 05:41:03 ... one panel at a time plus text to speech, not only do you need equivalent text for a given fragment, then we have tactile images 05:41:15 ack ivan 05:41:16 ... we can do some of that today, we can't do what say EAA expects 05:41:59 q+ 05:41:59 ivan: I want to come back to what Gregorio said, and the spec of today allows what you need as allowing an HTML file as fallback, I may have misunderstood the second part, this may only be valid for roll comics 05:42:21 ... I would be uneasy to add something to the spec for just one type of content 05:42:22 +1 ivan 05:42:49 ... it relates to what Hadrien said, falling back to an HTML file, seems to be only a rudimentary way to handle accessibility for an image 05:42:57 ... not sure we can handle it today 05:43:06 +1 05:43:28 gpellegrino: Ivan, my proposal was not to allow this way only for roll content, since it's already allowed for any content in the spine 05:43:37 ... my proposal was to have guidelines for producing comics 05:43:39 ack fantasai 05:43:56 fantasai: I wanted to scope the question down to sighted users who need accessibility support? 05:44:27 ... to make that work, you need to have a format to support that additional content, you need a reader to support that, and you need tools to produce that content 05:44:35 ... does that exist? 05:44:40 Laurent: No 05:44:51 s/does that/does any of that/ 05:44:57 fantasai: If we want EPUB to be able to do this, is this getting us closer or further to that? 05:45:35 Hadrien: We're years away from being able to do what you describe, its too early to say, I don't think it would be a step in the wrong direction to add images in spine 05:45:55 ack wendy 05:46:02 ... if we really want to achieve comics accessibility we can say its someone else's problem, or we can work towards it 05:46:04 s/is this getting/is images in spine getting/ 05:46:07 q+ 05:46:26 +q 05:46:28 q+ 05:46:29 wendyreid: Discussed in ?? group about that. How do we make this possible? 05:46:44 wendyreid: We have some proposals, to solve what Elika described 05:46:50 wendyreid: Discussing side-by-side content 05:46:58 s/??/fixed layout accessibility/ 05:46:58 wendyreid: parallel content that's related to each other 05:47:04 wendyreid: I don't think we're as far away from this as we think we are 05:47:05 q+ 05:47:12 wendyreid: There are reading systems already that do side-by-side content (forgot name) 05:47:21 wendyreid: One that allows fixed layout and relayout together 05:47:31 wendyreid: A lot of it, unfortunately, it's about tooling. 05:47:41 wendyreid: Lack of will to make this happen 05:47:56 wendyreid: Especially nowadays, with AI, offers us a lot of ways to automate this that previously would have been fully manual 05:48:09 wendyreid: Only a few years ago, alt text for comics would have been fully manual, now can automate much of it 05:48:12 wendyreid: Image detection of panels 05:48:14 wendyreid: Etc. 05:48:33 wendyreid: I'm reluctant to say that it's not possible. It's increasingly possible. 05:48:47 wendyreid: Alternate format providers are already doing this work, just mainstream publishers are not 05:48:52 wendyreid: So I'm reluctant to give in on this. 05:49:01 wendyreid: We have the technology. Some of the tools already exist. 05:49:10 wendyreid: A lot more publishers can do in content development that they're not doing. 05:49:16 wendyreid: And more on reading system side that could make it possible 05:49:31 wendyreid: I've seen scrolled fixed layout content in EPUB readers. It's not impossible. 05:49:43 q? 05:49:49 wendyreid: Doesn't mean we should make provisions in the spec to sacrifice our principles 05:49:52 ack gpellegrino 05:50:04 ack me 05:50:34 shiestyle: We have 10 minutes left, we want to conclude this topic in TPAC, maybe gpellegrino's proposal, using the spec as is 05:50:46 ... we will not make consensus to make images in spine without fallbacks 05:50:56 ... should we vote on this? 05:51:39 LaurentLM has joined #pmwg 05:51:44 Hadrien: I think some people don't like image in spine with HTML fallback but its the current spec, having a best practice document that describes how to do this, that is doable 05:51:45 q+ 05:52:02 q+ 05:52:04 ... it solves what I was mentioning, that helps to drive things toward clearer guidance 05:52:11 ack seth 05:52:37 [Seth asks question about tooling and alternate text in Japanese] 05:53:13 q- 05:54:03 seth: Can someone from the Japanese publishing community share why they don't produce accessible content, is it tooling or something else? 05:55:32 koike: When preparing alt text for manga, just the speech bubble text is not sufficient, but people make prepare the description of the story, we can't prepare that content without the author 05:55:39 ... it's difficult to prepare that content 05:56:00 Hiroshi_Kawada has joined #pmwg 05:56:23 scribe+ Hiroshi_Kawada 05:56:53 ここには日本の出版社の人がいると思うので、聞きたい。漫画はなぜアクセシビリティをサポートしないのか。どういう理由があるのか？ 05:57:08 ???: Japanese publishers don't have the right to produce that type of content, only authors can 05:58:02 shiestyle: I'll explain this a bit more tomorrow, manga content is generally out of scope 05:58:09 漫画のアクセシビリティというのは、何を情報として含めるのかが難しい。ただセリフをテキストに変えさえすれば、漫画のコマに含まれている情報を正確に伝えることができたというのかというと、そうではないとも思っていまる。 05:58:11 q? 05:58:24 ack Hadrien 05:58:35 Hadrien: Just wanted to reply to Wendy's comment, and it leads into the next discussion 05:59:07 ... there's a number of documents that can't be made fully accessible, we have children's books, textbooks, comics, the solutions for all those can be slightly different 05:59:27 ... there's options for magazines, newspapers, there's content out there where you can view articles 05:59:35 ... we don't have a way to support those in EPUB 05:59:55 ... I've talked to many people, but they are missing the format, they don't know how to distribute it 06:00:26 ... I don't think comics fall into that, comics is a lot about storytelling, comics have more in comics with media overlays or SMIL than textbooks or newspapers 06:00:39 s/???/Ito-san/ 06:00:46 ... there's AI solutions out there, but they haven't been tested, and they don't have a way to represent that 06:00:57 ... there's prototypes, but it's still early 06:01:17 ... we don't have an easy way out of the hole we've dug ourselves into, is it now or in the future? Up to us 06:01:21 ack ivan 06:02:20 ivan: The way I read the standard now, for each image you'd have an HTML fallback, ideally one HTML with the alt text, making the publisher's lives easier, but you can't refer to a fragment in a fallback 06:02:37 ... if this is our solution, we force the author to produce one HTML per image 06:03:15 ???: What accessibility features do people want? 06:03:36 s/???/Tomikura-san/ 06:03:41 Hadrien: We hear from people that there is interest, people want access to what their friends are reading 06:04:10 ... also with EAA, in theory, most books on the market will be natively accessible, orgs will re-orient to focus on different types of content, usually education or comics 06:04:20 ... orgs want to produce the content 06:04:37 ... maybe publishers won't do it, but alternate format providers will 06:05:03 ... with Marrakesh treaty, people can do this, we might be in a world where speciality providers can do this work 06:05:26 ... it doesn't put burden on publishers, but it does create challenges for the providers 06:05:41 [break] 06:29:44 jroque has joined #pmwg 06:30:39 MasakazuKitahara has joined #pmwg 06:30:58 present+ 06:31:12 duga has joined #pmwg 06:32:13 present+ 06:32:37 present+ brent 06:32:39 LaurentLM has joined #pmwg 06:32:42 seth2 has joined #pmwg 06:33:31 Topic: Process Discussion 06:33:48 Brent: I'm from the AB and I'm here to help! 06:33:53 ryokik has joined #pmwg 06:34:06 Brent: Feel free to contact me outside this meeting also. 06:34:24 q? 06:34:43 Brent: Scope of what we're looking for feedback on. 06:34:57 Brent: Chartering a group - how did that go? Was it straightforward? 06:35:03 Brent: What about publishing? 06:35:12 Brent: What problems block you from moving along REC track? 06:35:22 Brent: Are there things in Process to make easier? 06:35:33 q+ 06:35:33 Brent: Have you ever dealt with formal objection? Suggestions for improvement? 06:35:38 ack ivan 06:36:17 ivan: My experience as Team Contact, most complicated for each group is handling horizontal reviews. 06:36:43 ivan: It's very difficult to know when to start a horizontal review, and how. 06:36:57 ivan: When you start, you get avalanche of questions which are not always relevant to the WG you're in 06:37:22 jkamata has joined #pmwg 06:37:29 ivan: Each WG has different requirements. EPUB vs Verifiable Credentials, for example. 06:37:47 ivan: So faced with HUGE questionnaires, requires a lot of work to say whether relevant or not. 06:38:00 ivan: Tendency of requiring a lot of work up front is becoming worse and worse. 06:38:10 ivan: TAG asks more things than it used to, etc. keeps getting complicated. 06:38:21 q+ 06:38:21 ivan: I consider horizontal review to be essential, but this process needs review. 06:38:50 ivan: So far glad I didn't have to handle formal objections or IPR issues 06:38:58 ack wendyreid 06:39:28 wendyreid: I think we're an awkward group to ask, as Ivan has spared us from difficulties because he is able to answer the questions 06:39:38 wendyreid: Also lucky not to face FOs etc. 06:39:54 wendyreid: Most of the truly thorny things we've dealt with in the Process have been things related to publication, knowing that we're doing right steps at right times 06:40:06 wendyreid: Candidate Amendments for RECs etc. 06:40:24 wendyreid: The thing we were trying to do was very simple, just needed to make some corrections. 06:40:33 wendyreid: We spent weeks just figuring out exactly what we're supposed to do. 06:40:47 wendyreid: Once we did it, it was fine, but ... debating level 2 vs level 3 change, etc. 06:41:01 wendyreid: We debated a lot of it, and it took longer than it should have for some necessary corrections. 06:41:09 wendyreid: Clarify to spec. 06:41:38 wendyreid: Falling into process quicksand where a lot of pathways, hard to tell when criteria apply and when they don't, to what degree, etc. 06:42:11 Brent: Good feedback. Even knowing that ability to navigate helped by having a good Team Contact. 06:42:14 ack fantasai 06:42:41 fantasai: I've been on the other side of formal objections, one of the challenges is finding information on it, the council page is not the easiest to find or navigate 06:42:48 ... we should have a website with the information, easy to find 06:43:08 ... probably true of many things, where the process is not an issue but finding the necessary information is challenging 06:43:37 q+ 06:43:49 ... for most cases people shouldn't need to read the process doc, there are some exceptions, the amendment process is complicated and needs to be made more easy to understand 06:44:02 ... it's not supposed to be that complicated, even if it has complications to it 06:44:21 Brent: We found it easier to do an 1.1 vs an amendment 06:44:30 fantasai: The amendment was more for corrections 06:44:37 ack ivan 06:45:11 ivan: Brent said what I wanted to say, the amendments process was difficult, and a tooling issue, so it was easier to go through the rec process 06:45:56 ... it's difficult to markup the changes, it was challenging, in other cases tooling like ReSpec is helpful 06:46:28 Brent: Would also like to hear from editors. 06:46:53 LaurentLM: The burden is to use ReSpec, but it's a good tool, so no real burden. 06:47:11 fantasai: I'm in a Bikeshed group, and same, it's easy. 06:47:18 q+ 06:47:22 ack ivan 06:48:04 ivan: We have had, still have, problems with Invited Expert restrictions. We've had people whom we couldn't get ans an IE, or only with an enormous fight, because person happened to work for company which recently left W3C. 06:48:21 ... that created a lot of problems for us, because that person was indispensible to the WG. Similar case now also. 06:48:35 ... So issues around IE position, which is related to the whole Membership discussion at W3C that regularly comes up. 06:49:02 ... It's a problem for WGs in general. Maybe Wgs lack enough people, and any obstacle that makes it difficult to get people who do the work is a problem. 06:49:08 ... This WG is in the same position. 06:49:45 fantasai: There are two reasons the restrictions exist, one is business reasons, the other is IPR, trying to solve this problem would require considering both 06:50:22 Brent: will have breakout on Wednesday to discuss this, and AB-led Member Meeting which everyone is welcome to join. 06:50:32 ... We want to hear from you, so don't hesitate to reach out. 06:50:59 Topic: FXL Changes and Digital Comics 06:51:24 q+ 06:51:34 ack ivan 06:51:36 fantasai: Did we conclude on the images-in-spine issue? Should there be a resolution? 06:51:49 ivan: Agree that having a resolution is what we need 06:52:27 ... but I wonder whether we can make the formal references to fallbacks a bit more flexible than they are today, to make it easier to collect all the hypertext into one file instead of one per image for 200 images 06:52:31 q+ 06:52:36 ... Might require adjusting how fallback is identified in the package document 06:52:50 ... Maybe an additional entry which would allow referencing a fragment in the fallback file 06:52:54 ... Because right now we don't have that 06:53:22 Hadrien: So, saying you'd have a single HTML with all the text, and you'd have the fallback point to a fragmentID 06:53:22 ivan: Yes 06:53:27 Hadrien: If we do that, that opens a lot of other questions 06:53:31 ack duga 06:53:47 duga: That fundamentally changes fallbacks and the spine and how this works. 06:53:54 ... Maybe a great change, but much bigger change. 06:54:06 q+ 06:54:08 ... Fallback in the spine is meant to be, this is the content document you can use instead of this other document. 06:54:17 ... You can just swap the files out 06:54:39 ... But we don't have fragments of documents in the spine. In fact we have specific restriction on re-using a document in the spine. 06:54:47 q+ 06:54:51 ... Avoids complications with navigation and paging etc. 06:55:00 ... So this is a giant can of worms. 06:55:07 ... If we do fallbacks, we should do fallbacks as we do now 06:55:08 q+ 06:55:31 ivan: Ok, but we have a problem. 06:55:54 ... image in the spine with HTML fallback is technically true, but very impractical 06:55:57 Hadrien: Yes, it is impractical 06:56:01 ack wendy 06:56:04 ack wendyreid 06:56:15 q+ 06:56:24 wendyreid: I would agree it was impractical if 1) it wasn't already how things happen and 2) if person who is making epub had to hand-write every HTML document 06:56:30 ... but this is automated. It's not difficult to produce the files. 06:56:42 ... The tooling is already there to do it, workflow is there to do it. 06:57:02 ... If there was a size concern here (and the size here comes from the images, realistically speaking), maybe 06:57:16 ... It does seem a bit silly to have 100 HTML files that aren't used, but in terms of effort it's not a big deal. 06:57:16 ack Hadrien 06:57:28 Hadrien: My suggestion comes from pragmatic viewpoint which is what's out there 06:57:31 Magnus has joined #pmwg 06:57:31 ... I see 2 things 06:57:42 ... Images in spine with HTML fallback, and HTML with image fallback. 06:57:53 ... We should recognize these as valid ways to deal with this problem. 06:57:59 ... not have it be word-of-mouth 06:58:05 ... So we need to acknowledge what's out there. 06:58:19 ... Secondly, one of those two should be how we recommend authoring content. 06:58:24 ... "this is the way you should do it" 06:58:33 ... Not necessarily in the spec, but that could cover other comic-related issues 06:58:42 ... We can also recommend other things like metadata, semantics etc 06:58:56 ... With that approach, we won't break anything, won't ask anything new, would just say "this is what is used, and this is what should be used" 06:59:00 ack rdeltour 06:59:18 rdeltour: If we knew how well fallbacks are supported in reading systems 06:59:24 ... we do have some tests for manifest fallbacks 06:59:29 ... but those are about one single document having a fallback 06:59:43 ... but I wonder if someone has tested when all the documents have fallbacks, how does that work, how to transition from one document to another 06:59:51 ... whether this is sufficiently tested to be a viable solution 06:59:53 q? 06:59:58 ack gpellegrino 07:00:06 q+ 07:00:43 gpellegrino: I think the time is not right for thinking about solutions for comics etc. So opening the possibility to just images in spine maybe problematic. So suggest we continue as we have now, postponing the discussion, and we can open a task force thinking about a11y and comics 07:00:47 q+ 07:00:53 gpellegrino: Maybe inside the a11y task force we already have 07:00:59 q? 07:00:59 gpellegrino: but I wouldn't take it up right now 07:01:03 ack ivan 07:01:08 ivan: I agree 07:01:35 ivan: Laurent, is it possible for you to take a typical example which has fallbacks with HTML and has a relatively large number of images, and turn it into a test case for our test suite? 07:01:39 LaurentLM: Yes 07:01:57 ivan: It would be a valuable addition to our test suite. LaurentLM is right, we have a basic test, but we don't have a good stress test. 07:02:29 ivan: Wit that, I think repeating what Elika said, I think we should have a vote and have a resolution on what we put for advice for this type of documents 07:02:29 ack LaurentLM 07:02:39 LaurentLM: I totally agree, and disagree with ? 07:03:00 s/?/Gregorio 07:03:04 LaurentLM: We don't validate 3.4 today. So we have time to make a pre-recommendation, and ask reading systems to support what's in the spec 07:03:12 q+ 07:03:18 +1 to Laurent 07:03:21 LaurentLM: We can easily make the evolution to support fallbacks if we know this is the right direction. 07:03:31 LaurentLM: So let's make a pre-recommendation that is a resolution of this 07:03:36 ack wendy 07:03:40 LaurentLM: And then when we make 3.4 we will be ready, and reading systems will be ready 07:03:52 ACTION: LaurentLM to add a images-with-fallbacks stress test to test suite 07:04:19 wendyreid: Something to consider is images with XHTML fallbacks, those happen to have alt text which is great, how do I signal to reading system that I want the fallback instead of the images? 07:04:31 ... Most reading systems don't open the OPF file to see what's there. 07:04:39 q+ 07:04:41 ... Maybe we now need to make fallbacks more obvious to users? 07:04:47 ack LaurentLM 07:05:09 q+ 07:05:11 LaurentLM: There's a simple way. If there is a version of a comic with some accessibility description, then the publisher should put it as the first choice. Image as a fallback. 07:05:13 q+ 07:05:18 ack Hadrien 07:05:23 LaurentLM: Favorite of the publisher should be first. 07:05:42 ack LaurentLM 07:05:44 Hadrien: That doesn't work. Many have put HTML first and images as fallback because it works in more systems, e.g. Apple Books can't work with images in spine. 07:05:56 ... So I don't think HTML in spine signals an intent from the producer 07:06:04 ... It has more to do with the state of the industry than anything else 07:06:16 ... There's no easy way to signal this preference. 07:06:34 ... We have a problem in general with fallback. We use spine to convey information instead of using manifest. 07:06:48 ack duga 07:06:51 ... If we go in that direction, we're uncover a number of problems with how we do information in spine 07:07:11 duga: Would go a step farther and say, if you have an accessible HTML document, you've made an accessible comic, don't put an image in the spine 07:07:18 ... Might not work in some crummy reader, they should update. 07:07:19 +1 for what duga just said 07:07:26 ... You spent a lot of effort making that. 07:07:34 ... So should only do this for comics that are otherwise inaccessible. 07:07:51 ... If there is useful HTML accessibility info, put it in the spine, don't put images there. 07:08:03 ... Similarly, for childrens books. Put the HTML in the spine. And that can be covered in the note. 07:08:05 q? 07:08:34 wendyreid: So maybe better resolution is, we're keeping the spec as-is, but we are in agreement that comics deserves better guidance, so we want to write that guidance. 07:08:49 ack fantasai 07:08:52 Hadrien: And want to acknowledge what has been done for last 10 years, in millions of files. 07:09:25 taka has joined #pmwg 07:09:35 fantasai: Brady covered what I wanted to say, if we are writing best practices, if you do it clearly enough, but if its clear enough readers that use images can extract them, enabling that functionality 07:09:43 ... make it clear for readers with better capabilities 07:09:59 s/make it clear/while making the content more accessible/ 07:10:26 PROPOSED: Write a best practices document for comics content as a separate working group note. No change to the specification for images in spine. 07:10:39 +1 07:10:41 +1 07:10:43 +1 07:10:43 +1 07:10:43 +1 07:10:44 +1 07:10:44 +1 07:10:45 +1 07:10:46 +1 07:10:46 q+1 07:10:47 +1 07:10:48 +1 07:10:57 +1 07:11:15 RESOLVED: Write a best practices document for comics content as a separate working group note. No change to the specification for images in spine. 07:11:18 ack 1 07:11:52 ivan: Should I close the issue? discussion? 07:12:01 Hadrien: Connected to this resolution is roll documents. 07:12:08 Hadrien: I was blocked for this PR because unsure about direction 07:12:15 s/Hadrien: /.../ 07:12:26 ... But we need to decide more wrt roll documents 07:12:38 ... [missed] 07:12:38 Magnus has joined #pmwg 07:12:48 ... We can get rid of many complexities. 07:13:00 ivan: I will mark the issue as needing to be closed, and chairs can figure it out 07:13:23 [discussion of what to discuss] 07:13:43 Subtopic: First page 07:13:46 s/[missed]/We had some remaining complexity with how to describe them in the specification, that is resolved with this, we can have an example with image with HTML fallback/ 07:14:01 github: #2755 07:14:15 https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2755 07:14:26 Hadrien: What we see in the market, you have 2 types of fixed layout 07:14:32 ... One that indicates position for each resource 07:14:38 ... and one that doesn't indicate for anything 07:14:50 ... partial info is quite rare 07:15:05 ... Authors typically assume that if no positions are given, the first will be on its own, and the rest is two by two 07:15:20 ... It is an unwritten expectation that almost everyone creating FXL documents has, but we don't say anything in the spec 07:15:26 q? 07:15:30 fantasai: So you're proposing to specify that. 07:15:36 Hadrien: Yes, let's add this concept into our spec 07:15:48 wendyreid: That would be in reading systems, not core? 07:15:53 q+ 07:15:56 Hadrien: Core has quite a bit of language about that 07:16:07 wendyreid: But expectation would be in reading system 07:16:29 Hadrien: We'd have to change language in core. Because currently implied that if you don't put any information, then it means spread is not relevant, which is not what market is expecting. 07:16:48 ack gpellegrino 07:16:49 ... some language in Core is confusing, so we have to change language there and also add more to reading system 07:17:13 gpellegrino: Considering e.g. PDFs and ??, agree that the first page should be displayed as a single page if no other info. 07:17:20 ... But are we allowing user to change it? 07:17:29 q+ 07:17:36 ack Hadrien 07:17:37 ... Sometimes it's wrong e.g. for PDFs, there's an option for users to change the default. 07:17:51 Hadrien: I think it's a good idea for reading system to decide to use spreads or not. 07:18:12 q+ 07:18:15 ... depending on orientation of device, often switch whether spread or not. E.g. portrait mode have no spreads, landscape mode use spreads. 07:18:25 ... possible user might want no spreads in either, some reading systems allow some don't 07:18:33 ... different from having option for first page on its own 07:18:52 ... I don't think we need an option for an offset, but good thing to have whether you want spreads or not, but is that something our spec covers? 07:18:54 ack gpellegrino 07:18:57 LaurentLM: no it's a reading system choice 07:19:34 gpellegrino: I agree, maybe something to suggest somewhere. But two options. One is whether spreads preferred or not. Other option is whether ifrst page is cover or not. 07:19:49 Hadrien: Linear no, wouldn't necessarily see it 07:19:55 ack fantasai 07:20:08 fantasai: Not familiar with this format, each resource would say if its on the left or right? 07:20:29 Hadrien: Yes, the spec says if you say nothing, it doesn't matter, and if you say, there is a spread, both are not true 07:20:48 ... what we see if people not declaring it, or always declaring it 07:20:50 q? 07:21:26 PROPOSED: Adapt spec language in Core and Reading Systems to say that if no information about placement in spreads, the first resource should be a page on its own. 07:22:31 Hadrien: We're talking about the spine override in this case. 07:22:58 +1 07:22:59 +1 07:22:59 +1 07:22:59 +1 07:23:00 +1 07:23:00 +1 07:23:03 +1 07:23:03 +1 07:23:05 +1 07:23:05 +1 07:23:07 0 07:23:08 +1 07:23:09 +1 07:23:09 +1 07:23:25 RESOLVED: Adapt spec language in Core and Reading Systems to say that if no information about placement in spreads, the first resource should be a page on its own. 07:23:27 q+ 07:23:43 ivan: Who will adapt the spec language? 07:23:54 ack ivan 07:23:57 ACTION: Hadrien to create PR to adapt the spec language 07:24:13 s/spec language/spec language for making first page on its own in spreads/ 07:24:42 Hadrien: Also want to remove language that says that, if there is spread placement information, it means that there should be spreads 07:24:42 q+ 07:25:25 Hadrien: [quotes spec] 07:25:42 Hadrien: Says presence of page spread info means it's a "true spread" 07:25:43 hiro has joined #pmwg 07:25:52 LaurentLM: Says it should not be should without a spread layout -- and this is false. 07:26:03 ack duga 07:26:06 https://www.w3.org/TR/epub/#page-spread 07:26:20 duga: When I joined my last team, that is how they implemented their reader, and everyone hated it and they gots a lot of complaints. 07:26:29 q? 07:26:30 ... They were following the spec, and we had to tell them to ignore the spec. 07:26:37 q+ 07:26:41 https://www.w3.org/TR/epub-33/#spread:~:text=To%20indicate%20that%20two,presentation%20is%20equally%20acceptable. 07:27:12 PROPOSED: Remove text saying that presence of spread information implies that the pages SHOULD be laid out as a spread, making either presentation equally acceptable. 07:27:51 PROPOSED: Remove text saying that presence of spread information implies that the pages SHOULD be laid out as a spread, making either presentation equally acceptable. https://www.w3.org/TR/epub-33/#spread:~:text=To%20indicate%20that%20two,presentation%20is%20equally%20acceptable 07:27:54 +1 07:27:55 +1 07:27:56 +1 07:27:57 +1 07:27:59 0 07:28:01 +1 07:28:03 +1 07:28:08 +1 07:28:16 0 07:28:44 RESOLVED: Remove text saying that presence of spread information implies that the pages SHOULD be laid out as a spread, making either presentation equally acceptable. https://www.w3.org/TR/epub-33/#spread:~:text=To%20indicate%20that%20two,presentation%20is%20equally%20acceptable 07:28:55 ack ivan 07:29:07 0 (ok for the direction, but the paragraph needs a bit more modifications) 07:29:20 ivan: Laurent, for the PR that you will do, can you add a test for the test suite? 07:29:40 s/making/clarify that/ 07:29:48 wendyreid: We can modify existing spread tests 07:30:02 ivan: Anyway think about the test suite. 07:30:14 Hadrien: I'll ping you when I make the PR. 07:30:45 Subtopic: Orientation - https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2751 07:31:05 Hadrien: Seems like a lot of people oppose this property, and not many support it. 07:31:16 ivan: So remove or deprecate? 07:31:21 Hadrien: Probably deprecate 07:31:31 q+ 07:31:47 ivan: I have seen one book that used it, a French book on Egyptian temple which has photos and videos and probably handcrafted. 07:31:53 ack gpellegrino 07:32:07 Sam has joined #pmwg 07:32:12 gpellegrino: This is a WCAG violation, blocking re-orientation of the content. 07:32:31 ... but also some authoring tools like Pub?? which use this value a lot because they tend to add their content at full-screen on the device 07:32:50 ... and to have it full-screen on the device you have to block the orientation 07:33:02 q+ 07:33:11 ack duga 07:33:13 Hadrien: FXL you always contain both dimensions in the viewport. So if you want to use the full extent of the screen, force landscape, but only true for some screens and some documents 07:33:23 duga: and only if you have control over spreads, which we just decided you don't 07:33:37 q+ 07:33:38 duga: If the user decides they want to have two spreads in landscape, then all of a sudden you've lost the control. 07:33:50 Hadrien: Still the spread property where you can say both. 07:34:12 ... what we voted on is that if you put one resource on left one o right, it's not forcing spread. But you could use spread:both, or on a spine override, to do this 07:34:23 q- 07:34:26 ... Because you can still do both, you're not blocking anything else. 07:34:45 Hadrien: I would be in favor of deprecating this and changing the reading system behavior, because this is actively harmful for a lot of people. Not just a11y. 07:35:27 Are we proposing: Deprecate rendition-orientation in Core, and also update Reading Systems to ignore it. 07:35:43 https://www.w3.org/TR/epub-33/#orientation 07:35:45 PROPOSED: Deprecate rendition-orientation in Core, and also update Reading Systems to ignore it. 07:36:17 q+ 07:36:24 ack duga 07:36:39 duga: Should we deprecate rendition-orientation or just the non-auto value? 07:37:08 fantasai: If auto is the only non-deprecated value, then that's equivalent to deprecating the whole thing, so just deprecate the whole thing. 07:37:32 duga: Want to be clear what reading systems need to do. 07:37:51 wendyreid: We just say treat them all like auto. 07:37:52 PROPOSED: Deprecate rendition-orientation in Core, and also update Reading Systems to ignore it. 07:38:02 +1 07:38:02 +1 07:38:03 +1 07:38:03 +1 07:38:05 0 07:38:07 +1 07:38:08 +1 07:38:09 +1 07:38:11 q+ 07:38:11 +1 07:38:14 +1 07:38:14 0 07:39:01 RESOLVED: Deprecate rendition-orientation in Core, and also update Reading Systems to ignore it. 07:39:05 ack ivan 07:39:08 Move to https://www.w3.org/TR/epub-rs-34/#app-unsupported 07:39:24 ivan: Deprecation means that we have to move that property into the unsupported section. 07:39:42 ... but yeah, let's leave it to Matt to figure out the editing. 07:39:53 q+ 07:39:57 ack me 07:40:07 shiestyle: How about epub-check? 07:40:14 LaurentLM: epub-check checks the structure 07:40:27 Hadrien: Shouldn't affect epub-check. 07:40:30 fantasai: You can issue a warning. 07:40:35 gautierchomel has joined #pmwg 07:40:42 ivan: Might need to raise an issue to the epub-check repo. 07:40:44 +1 on creating an issue please 07:40:59 Hadrien: Have to be careful about warnings, some people treat them as not warnings. 07:41:14 ACTION: Ivan to create issue against epub-check wrt removing rendition-orientation 07:41:56 ivan: Don't forget to update the changelog 07:42:46 Hadrien: I also opened similar issues wrt `flow` which is really under-used, and another about layout overrides and spreads. 07:42:46 ... These are more contentious. 07:42:46 ... Flow much less interest in it 07:42:54 ... aside from shiestyle 07:43:03 ... I'm not sure what you are using it for is a problem? 07:43:27 https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2754 07:43:28 ... But when we go back to this, flow would probably be my next target. Because I don't really understand why an author should say whether content is paginated or scrolled. 07:43:37 ... Goes against principle of EPUB. 07:43:58 wendyreid: Wrt flow, was a way to declare scrolled comics in the before times. So when we add roll, we can say this thing does that better. 07:44:21 Hadrien: Yeah, we should do those together. But I think it's harmful othrewise. 07:44:44 shiestyle: But for now we need to keep scrolled-continous, because we use this feature for contents. 07:45:02 Hadrien: So we would acknowledge its previous usage, and treat is as equivalent of 'layout: roll' 07:45:12 shiestyle: Ok, we're out of time, so let's wrap up. 07:45:23 topic: closing 07:47:48 wendyreid reviews the agenda for tomorrow 07:49:35 rrsagent, draft minutes 07:49:37 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/09-pmwg-minutes.html ivan 07:51:30 rresagent, bye 07:51:35 zakim, bye 07:51:35 leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Brady, wendyreid, shiestyle, toshiakikoike, AvneeshSingh, rdeltour, MasakazuKitahara, mgarrish, gpellegrino, jroque, George, 07:51:35 Zakim has left #pmwg 07:51:38 ... Hadrien, George_, cristina, marisa, DaleRogers, seth, duga, jkamata, Daihei, ivan, Yong-Sang_Cho, charlesl, ikkwong, seth2, brent 07:59:21 shiestyle has joined #pmwg 08:00:06 gautierchomel__ has joined #pmwg 09:19:32 LaurentLM has joined #pmwg 09:54:14 shiestyle has joined #pmwg 10:53:23 shiestyle has joined #pmwg 11:54:31 shiestyle has joined #pmwg 12:55:36 shiestyle has joined #pmwg 13:56:42 shiestyle has joined #pmwg 14:57:48 shiestyle has joined #pmwg 15:58:54 shiestyle has joined #pmwg 17:00:01 shiestyle has joined #pmwg 18:07:21 shiestyle has joined #pmwg 19:53:18 shiestyle has joined #pmwg 21:01:27 shiestyle has joined #pmwg 23:02:32 shiestyle has joined #pmwg 23:24:58 shiestyle has joined #pmwg 23:48:42 shiestyle has joined #pmwg 00:45:47 rdeltour has joined #pmwg 00:54:44 marisa has joined #pmwg 00:55:47 present+ 01:15:08 mgarrish has joined #pmwg 01:21:39 marisa has left #pmwg 01:21:42 marisa has joined #pmwg 01:25:25 seth2 has joined #pmwg 01:35:55 Anyone know the channel for "Publishing Business Group Meeting" happening now? 01:36:54 jroque has joined #pmwg 01:37:30 To Seth it's #pbg 01:37:48 taka has joined #pmwg 01:39:49 hiro has joined #pmwg 01:42:42 LaurentLM has joined #pmwg 01:51:38 ikkwong has joined #pmwg 01:51:44 present+ 02:08:03 LaurentLM has joined #pmwg 02:14:32 Zakim has joined #pmwg 02:26:57 ryokik has joined #pmwg 02:30:36 toshiakikoike has joined #pmwg 02:31:05 CharlesL has joined #pmwg 02:31:28 taka has joined #pmwg 02:31:39 zakim, start the meeting 02:31:39 RRSAgent, make logs Public 02:31:41 Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group 02:31:50 present+ 02:31:55 present+ 02:32:07 jkamata has joined #pmwg 02:32:15 present+ 02:33:00 present+ 02:33:36 wendyreid has joined #pmwg 02:33:50 zakim, start meeting 02:33:50 RRSAgent, make logs Public 02:33:51 Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group 02:33:55 gpellegrino has joined #pmwg 02:33:59 chair: wendyreid, shiestyle 02:34:04 present+ 02:34:57 MasakazuKitahara has joined #pmwg 02:35:02 duga has joined #pmwg 02:35:04 present+ 02:35:07 present+ 02:35:30 present+ 02:35:30 seth2 has joined #pmwg 02:35:40 scribe+ seth 02:35:43 scribe+ seth2 02:35:53 present+ 02:36:19 Hadrien has joined #pmwg 02:36:21 jroque has joined #pmwg 02:36:22 present+ Junko Kamata 02:36:29 present+ 02:36:37 Topic: Day 1 overview 02:36:38 present+ Hadrien Gardeur 02:37:07 wendyreid: I want to do a quick overview of day one in case there are people who missed or refresh their memory or if things came up overnight that they had thoughts on 02:37:22 wendyreid: yesterday we spent the bulk of the day on annotations, fixed layout, comics 02:37:44 Bobby has joined #PMWG 02:37:48 wendyreid: there's been huge progress in annotations, the beginnings of what the format will look like, more work to be done but exciting, keep an eye on it 02:38:12 wendyreid: afternoon spent mostly on fixed layout, comics with progress and decisions on rendition proprerties 02:38:12 LaurentLM has joined #pmwg 02:38:22 ... what to do with images in spine, deciding on best practices on comics 02:38:56 ... also talked about ISO and what to do about the progress, good news: since that discussion talked to three people who can help so positive movement there. Upside of conversations at TPAC you can find someone who is relevant 02:39:10 ... for today, is there anything people want to ask about yesterday / comment on? 02:39:31 q? 02:39:50 ... for today we have a couple of topics, grab bag day of random things 02:40:15 ... starting with discusssion about the update to the japanese publishing guidelines, then in the afternoon updates to publication manifest and possibly HTML in epub, survey results 02:40:29 ... remainder of afternoon "general time" to do issue cleanup 02:40:40 ... we started the rendition properties discussion but maybe focus on the rest of the rendition stuff to get it finished 02:40:57 ... if there are other issues you want to discuss we have time so let us know 02:41:18 ... anything we missed or burning topics you want to discuss while we are all available? 02:41:25 q? 02:41:46 ... good start, ahead of schedule. Shinya, would you tell us about the japanese publishing guidelines? 02:41:56 Topic: Japanese Publishing Guidelines Update 02:41:58 shiestyle? 02:42:25 My slides: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1NXqa-9iK04QcvRojNCQdm0nU3JREH8XvOdCGpUiGLns/edit?usp=sharing 02:42:58 shiestyle: this TPAC was held in Japan so we prepared a special session for introducing japanese status for some kinds of guidelines update