23:55:09 RRSAgent has joined #i18n 23:55:14 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/11/09-i18n-irc 23:55:34 Meeting: Internationalization Working Group - TPAC 2025 23:55:37 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/09-i18n-minutes.html addison 23:57:53 present+ Addison, Fuqiao 00:04:01 saji has joined #i18n 00:07:29 saji has joined #i18n 00:07:29 addison has joined #i18n 00:07:29 florian has joined #i18n 00:08:06 r12a has joined #i18n 00:08:23 present+ Eemeli 00:08:39 Bobby has joined #i18n 00:08:39 saji has joined #i18n 00:08:39 addison has joined #i18n 00:08:39 florian has joined #i18n 00:09:43 present+ Bobby 00:09:47 present+ Martin 00:09:51 present+ Florian 00:09:52 present+ Bert 00:09:58 Bobby has joined #i18n 00:09:58 saji has joined #i18n 00:09:58 addison has joined #i18n 00:09:58 florian has joined #i18n 00:10:08 RRSAgent, make minutes 00:10:10 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/09-i18n-minutes.html xfq 00:10:40 chair: addison 00:10:40 RRSAgent, make minutes 00:10:41 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/09-i18n-minutes.html xfq 00:11:08 Bobby has joined #i18n 00:11:08 saji has joined #i18n 00:11:08 addison has joined #i18n 00:11:08 florian has joined #i18n 00:12:11 Bobby has joined #i18n 00:12:11 saji has joined #i18n 00:12:11 addison has joined #i18n 00:12:11 florian has joined #i18n 00:13:32 Bobby has joined #i18n 00:13:32 saji has joined #i18n 00:13:32 addison has joined #i18n 00:13:32 florian has joined #i18n 00:14:31 scribe+ 00:14:34 Topic: Introductions 00:14:40 Bobby has joined #i18n 00:14:40 saji has joined #i18n 00:14:40 addison has joined #i18n 00:14:40 florian has joined #i18n 00:14:40 Richard Ishida 00:14:49 scribe+ addison 00:15:26 Martin Dürst 00:15:37 Eemeli Aro 00:15:43 Florian Rivoal 00:15:54 Bobby has joined #i18n 00:15:54 saji has joined #i18n 00:15:54 addison has joined #i18n 00:15:54 florian has joined #i18n 00:15:57 Bert Bos 00:16:17 Fuqiao Xue 00:16:25 Daisuke Shiohara 00:16:30 present+ Daisuke Shiohara 00:16:43 Ryusei Saijiki 00:16:49 present+ Ryusei Saijiki 00:17:03 Bobby Tung 00:17:09 present+ 00:17:22 Bobby has joined #i18n 00:17:22 saji has joined #i18n 00:17:22 addison has joined #i18n 00:17:22 florian has joined #i18n 00:17:45 present+ atsushi 00:18:37 Addison Phillips 00:19:04 Bobby has joined #i18n 00:19:04 saji has joined #i18n 00:19:04 addison has joined #i18n 00:19:04 florian has joined #i18n 00:19:05 https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/86ea031d-776b-426e-aa2a-bdf6ba6d50af/ 00:19:12 Topic: Agenda Parking Lot 00:19:32 agenda+ 00:19:40 agenda? 00:19:47 oops 00:20:45 RRSAgent, make minutes 00:20:47 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/09-i18n-minutes.html xfq 00:21:04 berlysia has joined #i18n 00:22:11 addison: the parking lot is just requests that we have 00:24:18 schenney has joined #i18n 00:24:45 Topic: DOM localization 00:25:01 eemeli: a couple of different items on dom localization 00:25:15 ... should this be a thing that should be done? 00:25:31 and if we do would this be going into the html spec eventually? 00:25:54 ... separately from that where do we work on and incubate and standardize the representation of a message resource as a file format? 00:26:04 ... does not belong in the html spec 00:26:33 ... is this group a right place to incubate some or all parts of this? 00:26:45 ... or should that technically be happening somwhere else? 00:27:33 ... it is sounding to me like it would be much more benefical to talk about dom l10n more in depth after tomorrow's breakout session 00:28:09 florian: i would appreciate a 5-minute intro 00:28:53 addison: i would suggest maybe if this is necessary do it a little later 00:29:06 ... there is no way to localize a web app built-in 00:29:17 ... everybody rolling their own little l10n thing 00:29:27 ... eemeli and i have been working on MF2 for a while 00:29:40 ... would like to see MF2 be a native participant in the web 00:30:20 berlysia has joined #i18n 00:30:53 r12a: tomorrow morning there's also the wcag and non-latin language breakout 00:30:57 ... i can go to that 00:31:05 ... i would be useful there 00:31:17 ... i don't know whether anybody wlse needs to be at the wcag one 00:31:32 addison: i suspect it's going to take more than one conversation 00:33:32 Topic: IRI vulnerability, IRI status in general (cf. RFC3987, WHATWG URL) 00:33:48 addison: the errata piece is a short conversation 00:34:00 ... the larger conversation is we haven't finished this work 00:34:05 ... WHATWG URL etc. 00:34:40 r12a: the ICANN UA Expert Group is looking at what standards need to be address 00:34:48 ... you came up obviously with the IRI stuff 00:34:50 ... just FYI 00:35:34 eemeli: @@1 00:36:17 eemeli: is there any representation of what is missing from the URL spec for it to be a full successor to the IRI spec? 00:36:37 martin: i think it depends on probably for web browsers there's not much that is missing 00:36:56 ... on the other hand there are things like how exactly should bidi work? 00:37:02 ... that's a very difficult problem 00:38:32 addison: I know mark davis is working on linkification 00:38:45 ... if that were to turn to a standard of some sort 00:38:51 ... you would want harmony on that 00:39:22 atsushi has joined #i18n 00:39:45 martin: it's very clearly a problem 00:40:04 ... if there's an easy solution somebody would easily do it 00:40:14 ... but the problem is that there's no solution 00:40:37 ... and in browsers @@ non-ASCII copy that out it turns into percent escaping 00:40:55 addison: the address bar is a special place 00:41:09 ... the challenge is that the address bar is not the only place where urls need to go 00:41:35 martin: it's more like a UI issue 00:42:16 eemeli: feels like the easiest here is to consider to consider all of the slashes to be directionally rtl 00:42:26 ... and to break up parts according to those 00:43:13 martin: the IRI spec currently say something but browsers do it a little bit different 00:45:16 s/directionally rtl/directionally ltr/ 00:46:14 addison: the url standard has some about presentation maybe not full 00:46:50 eemeli: can we identify the pieces that ought to be added to the url standard so that we could possibly even deprecate the iri spec? 00:48:04 ... martin would you be interested in putting something on a list of what is missing from the URL standard? 00:48:08 martin: i can do that 00:48:16 ACTION: martin: create a list of gaps in URL standard 00:48:23 Cannot create action. Validation failed. Maybe martin is not a valid user for w3c/i18n-actions? 00:48:41 ACTION: duerst: create a list of gaps in URL standard 00:48:41 Cannot create action. Validation failed. Maybe duerst is not a valid user for w3c/i18n-actions? 00:49:08 ACTION: addison: remind @duerst to create a list of gaps in URL standard 00:49:09 Created -> action #196 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/196 00:50:20 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/196 -> Action 196 remind @duerst to create a list of gaps in URL standard (on aphillips, duerst) due 2025-11-17 00:51:53 Topic: CSS 00:52:18 addison: we should think about how best to engage 00:52:47 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue%20state%3Aopen%20label%3Awg%3Acss ==> 156 open 00:53:02 ... i think that meeting at one time was very helpful 00:53:07 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue%20state%3Aopen%20label%3AAgenda%2BI18N%2BCSS 00:53:49 addison: we have shared interest 00:54:04 florian: i think the problem is not shared interest 00:54:33 ... my lack of attendance of our sync up meetings 00:54:44 ... i don't believe i can realistically be that champion 00:54:49 ... tho i wish i could 00:55:04 r12a-again has joined #i18n 00:55:05 addison: as long as css uses some mechanism like our agenda+ tag 00:55:19 ... or something to say this one is currently active and so interaction would be useful 00:55:33 q+ 00:55:39 ack next 00:56:23 r12a: i18n is part of the architecture , not an add-on 00:56:31 florian: i completely agree with that 00:56:49 ... i don't thiknn there is a general neglect of the i1n apects 00:57:04 ... but i18n questions canbe of cvarious levels of complexity 00:57:20 s/thiknn/think 00:57:26 s/canbe/can be 00:57:40 addison: we do tend to notice when there is action on something 00:58:03 ... at least i'm looking for new pending issues 00:58:13 ... we'll need to make sure joel gets that message 00:58:32 ... there are some higher level things like physical versus logical 00:58:38 ... on our radar for multiple years 00:58:44 ... needs to get done 00:59:06 r12a: it needs to be done because customers for css are people from all around the world 00:59:34 ... one thing we could look at is there's a champion in the csswg for i18n 00:59:53 ... the champion doesn't have to know anything in great detail about i18n 01:00:06 ... but they need to be aware when those discussions need to take place 01:00:16 ... and they need to engage discussion 01:00:46 florian: when we design something new do we take i18n considerations into account properly? i would say the answer is yes we do 01:01:26 ... logical vs physical thing is the language as a whole has a gap 01:01:50 ... maybe it's insuffcient lack of attnetion 01:03:56 r12a: for me the problem is not so much the detailed work 01:04:13 ... but having somebody monitoring what's happening and trying to facilitate discussions 01:04:25 ... we don't have any meetings scheduled anymore 01:04:36 addison: we didn't accomplish anything 01:05:26 r12a: it's not "let's do extra i18n things" 01:05:38 ... it's a case of making sure that CSS meets theh needs of the world 01:05:54 ... it's apot of the process of building CSS 01:06:05 s/theh/the/ 01:06:12 s/apot/a part 01:08:24 Topic: Requirements for the layout of rosters 01:08:28 https://github.com/w3c/clreq/issues/268 01:08:28 https://github.com/w3c/clreq/issues/268 -> Issue 268 Requirements for the layout of rosters (by xfq) [未來工作/future] [i:justification] 01:09:38 https://github.com/w3c/clreq/issues/268 01:10:55 scribe+ 01:11:05 xfq: common in traditional media, alignment by column 01:11:32 ... aligned in three characters, and for two character cell there is space in middle 01:11:40 ... how to do this with CSS 01:12:22 xfq: dot in second line connects two, in half size 01:12:50 ... for thrid column it should align at the first 01:13:10 florian: for current CSS, text-justify 01:13:46 ... justify by name but not with character, name need to be marked up by span or some 01:14:28 florian: flexbox might also work potentially 01:16:04 xfq: ideally alignment should not be done by ideographic character, but by system spacing 01:16:22 r12a: names should have minimum length, and to be aligned by system 01:17:09 florian: I think you can get close to this with either flex or grid 01:17:16 ... either will have different shortcomings 01:18:24 martin: maybe clreq can see how far they get with grid/flex 01:18:35 ... and CSSWG can help 01:18:47 scribe- 01:20:28 r12a: what would help is if you could put the actual text for that black box in the github issue 01:20:32 xfq: I can do that 01:20:35 RRSAgent, make minutes 01:20:36 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/09-i18n-minutes.html xfq 01:21:23 Topic: CSS 01:21:24 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue%20state%3Aopen%20label%3Awg%3Acss 01:22:12 Topic: Ruby 01:23:12 r12a: i want to show people what we have in terms of finding issues related to a particular language such as japanese and ruby and so on 01:23:30 https://www.w3.org/International/ 01:23:48 https://www.w3.org/TR/typography/ 01:23:49 r12a: this is the i18n homepage 01:24:08 ... if you look under language enablement there's a link called language enablement index 01:24:16 berlysia has joined #i18n 01:24:16 ... if you scroll down that page 01:24:47 https://www.w3.org/TR/arab-lreq/#vertical_text 01:24:53 [r12a shows the page] 01:26:48 https://www.w3.org/TR/jpan-lreq/#inline_notes 01:27:05 https://www.w3.org/TR/hani-lreq/#inline_notes 01:27:26 https://www.w3.org/TR/kore-lreq/#inline_notes 01:27:38 https://www.w3.org/TR/mong-lreq/#inline_notes 01:29:24 florian: i know that there is a wealth of interconnected information in these sets of pages 01:29:46 ... it's never quite been clear to me on when i'm supposed to go there 01:30:53 r12a: if you want to check reqs go the reqs page 01:31:05 ... if you want to check tests go to the tests page 01:34:26 r12a has joined #i18n 01:35:17 schenney has left #i18n 01:40:37 r12a-again has joined #i18n 02:02:42 saji has joined #i18n 02:02:55 r12a has joined #i18n 02:10:36 berlysia has joined #i18n 02:13:59 r12a has joined #i18n 02:14:09 Topic: Fonts 02:14:22 bobby: limitations about local fonts in CSS 02:14:40 ... cannnot use system fonts like Kai and Fangsong 02:14:46 ... important in Chinese typography 02:15:00 atsushi has joined #i18n 02:15:09 ... use for emphasize etc. 02:15:21 ... some system fonts only have one weight 02:15:28 ... we do not use italics 02:15:48 ... we cannot use synthetic oblique fonts 02:16:02 ... we change typeface for emphasis 02:16:11 ... if there's no way to use a local font 02:16:21 ... there is not way to indicate emphasis 02:16:33 ... we talked about this in clreq calls 02:16:51 ... finally we have a new generic() function in CSS fonts L4 02:17:03 ... but I don't know when it will be implemented in browsers 02:17:06 ... that's the problem 02:17:40 ... it's related to the CSS-i18n champion issue we just talked about 02:18:19 bobby: we have documented this in clreq 02:19:14 xfq: they are documented in the gap analysis 02:20:12 eemeli: i can fowrard this to the right people 02:20:17 r12a: who should we talk to? 02:20:34 eemeli: Henri 02:20:44 ... does quite a bit of work with characters 02:21:45 xfq: we had discussed within i18n, and have more than 10 trackers on this 02:22:08 r12a: let's take this up again when florian is back 02:22:33 xfq: for ruby, Murata-san is wokring on, and will join tomorrow? 02:22:50 Topic: Glossary and the normative approach 02:23:15 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/pulls 02:23:53 Bobby has joined #i18n 02:24:26 xfq: have discussed this glossary for a while, ready to merge? 02:24:43 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/pull/95 02:24:43 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/pull/95 -> Pull Request 95 Update the definition of 'Mojibake' (by xfq) 02:24:55 xfq: #95 for Mojibake 02:24:55 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/pull/95/files 02:24:55 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/95 -> CLOSED Action 95 write endorsement of html ruby markup extensions (on aphillips) due 2024-05-02 02:26:17 [xfq introduces the issue] 02:26:54 s/issue/PR/ 02:34:14 martin: it's not an issue of encoding, but an issue of decoding 02:35:05 boby: we can still find some old web pages on the web that use shift-jis and when you open it with modern browsers 02:35:11 ... they decode it with utf-8 02:35:17 ... and you cannot read anything 02:35:24 r12a: tofu is a different thing 02:35:28 ... lack of glyph 02:35:45 martin: or lack of fonts 02:36:00 r12a: how to say mojibake in chinese? 02:36:00 bobby: 乱码 02:36:11 Luànmǎ 02:36:29 bobby has joined #i18n 02:36:35 乱 means disorder, confused 02:36:40 码 means encoding 02:37:45 https://zh-yue.wikipedia.org/wiki/亂碼 02:43:45 xfq: specdev uses Mojibake 02:43:55 ... i don't think any other spec uses it 02:44:12 r12a: so it's a informative term and we can have Luànmǎ too 02:44:24 ... maybe it's not so important for the specs 02:44:59 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/pull/89 02:44:59 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/issues/89 -> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/pull/89 02:46:32 [xfq introduces the PR] 02:47:48 ok to merge 02:48:17 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/pull/88 02:48:18 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/pull/88 -> Pull Request 88 Update the definition of 'Bidirectional isolate' and 'Bidi isolation' (by xfq) 02:48:42 [xfq shows on screen for discussion on text/change in PR] 02:50:41 ok to merge 02:51:29 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/pull/91/files 02:51:30 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/pull/91 -> Pull Request 91 Update the definition of 'First-strong detection' (by xfq) 02:53:57 martin: maybe say something like first-strong is used when auto is set 02:54:08 xfq: i can add a link 02:55:26 r12a: "then uses that to guess at the appropriate base direction for the string as a whole" is missing from the new def 02:55:40 martin: "guess" is the core here 02:56:01 ... it should be used when the directionality is not known yet 02:57:54 Topic: Open issues and PRs 02:58:02 xfq: jumping into pending issues 02:58:07 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-drafts/pull/701 02:58:08 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-drafts/pull/701 -> Pull Request 701 Update qa-i18n (by xfq) 02:58:58 xfq: raised PR while ago, adding line to list of i18n targets 02:59:31 martin: "Keyboard usage" to "Keyboard layout and usage" 03:01:30 r12a: "Accessibility requirements" is too vague 03:01:44 ... maybe things like "readability requirements" and "legal requirements" 03:02:25 ... "script-specific readability requirements" 03:03:21 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-drafts/pull/702 03:03:22 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-drafts/pull/702 -> Pull Request 702 Add a brief mention of security issues (by xfq) 03:03:36 https://deploy-preview-702--i18n-drafts.netlify.app/questions/qa-escapes.en.html#security 03:05:38 eemeli: "inserting it into HTML" 03:06:06 ... from a reader's point of view there's a little ambiguity of what "inserting it into HTML" means 03:06:18 ... the way you're using it is correct 03:06:32 ... but it is easy to misunderstand 03:06:54 r12a: and it's only the syntax characters 03:07:09 saji0 has joined #i18n 03:07:13 ... if i say hello in another language 03:07:20 ... you don't need to escape it 03:12:26 Zakim has left #i18n 03:14:37 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-drafts/pull/705/files 03:14:38 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-drafts/pull/705 -> Pull Request 705 Use "text content" instead of "content" (by xfq) 03:19:28 r12a: we can remove "There are many character encodings to choose from." 03:22:18 RRSAgent, make minutes 03:22:20 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/09-i18n-minutes.html xfq 03:32:38 r12a has joined #i18n 03:48:44 r12a has joined #i18n 04:54:38 berlysia has joined #i18n 04:55:34 saji has joined #i18n 04:58:04 r12a has joined #i18n 05:00:32 r12a_ has joined #i18n 05:04:07 r12a_ has joined #i18n 05:04:58 Topic: Mention layout mirroring for bidi 05:05:57 https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/163 05:05:58 https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/163 -> Pull Request 163 Mention layout mirroring for bidi (by xfq) 05:06:01 https://deploy-preview-163--bp-i18n-specdev.netlify.app/#typ_bidi_styling 05:06:58 xfq: There were some comments and I made a pull request ^^ 05:08:03 hsivonen has joined #i18n 05:08:58 eemeli: "It should preferably automatic" -> "It should be preferably automatic" 05:09:08 eemeli: Typo: missing "be" 05:11:45 martin: what languages use sloping in both directions? 05:12:00 r12a_: In Hebrew it is a choice 05:12:08 saji5 has joined #i18n 05:12:14 Topic: Add some best practices to string-search 05:12:18 https://github.com/w3c/string-search/pull/28 05:12:19 https://github.com/w3c/string-search/pull/28 -> Pull Request 28 Add some best practices (by xfq) 05:12:38 s/directions/directions (in section 9.4) 05:13:08 https://r12a.github.io/scripts/hebr/he.html#fontstyle 05:13:59 https://r12a.github.io/scripts/arab/arb.html#letterforms 05:14:23 xfq: This is about string searching. I added that UAs should by default offer case-insensitive searching, using Unicode case folding. 05:16:55 eemeli: Section 5.18 of Unicode 17 05:17:24 bobby has joined #i18n 05:17:46 xfq: Current string search document doesn't refer to Unicode diretcly, but does point to charmod-norm, which does. 05:18:03 ... That might be enough. 05:19:00 eemeli: Maybe better to link directly and reduce need for clicks. 05:19:05 hsivonen has joined #i18n 05:19:27 ... Another typo: s/forms forms/character forms/ 05:19:31 hsivonen has joined #i18n 05:20:50 r12a_: Or maybe just characters, instead of character forms. 05:21:15 q+ 05:22:02 Zakim has joined #i18n 05:22:30 xfq: Another patch is to add ‘User agents MAY normalize numeric values to their ASCII forms (0-9) in string searching operations.’ 05:23:14 eemeli: Is that about characters that represent numbers? 05:23:18 xfq: Yes 05:23:28 hsivonen: Is this document normative? 05:24:47 ... Performance difference on long documents for collator-based search. 05:24:56 Itoe has joined #i18n 05:25:48 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nUCQxSCCIdfBas5l-jGu58O38FaCLuvlsBFAjvXrgNM/edit?tab=t.0 05:26:02 ... There is a request to me to write about this. Haven't written it yet. Let me paste something ^^ 05:26:56 ... Firefox doesn't do some things from this list. 05:27:42 xfq: I'll read though that document. 05:29:08 hsivonen: Firefox probably doesn't want to add a checkbox to ignore accents. 05:29:22 xfq: That's why I wrote ‘may’. 05:29:33 berlysia has joined #i18n 05:29:52 ... as in ‘MAY provide an option for diacritics-sensitive search’ 05:31:34 r12a_: About ASCII digits: also search for the value if the number is not decimal? 05:31:47 s/Firefox probably doesn't want to add a checkbox to ignore accents./Firefox probably doesn't want to add a checkbox to fold numbering systems, but it could be treated as an accent difference./ 05:32:43 eemeli: It is a ‘may’ 05:33:08 ... Allow implementers to think about what can be done. 05:34:14 r12a_: I've been searching a lot and keep finding things that I don't want. Such as finding é when I really want e. 05:35:15 q+ 05:35:20 eemeli: In many languages, letters with accent are really different and you don't want to mix them. 05:35:58 xfq: Maybe the ‘should‘ in the diacritics rule should be a ‘may’ then. 05:36:22 andreubotella has joined #i18n 05:37:06 r12a_: For me that applies to digits, too: I often do want to search for the character, not for anything with that value. 05:37:25 ack hsivonen 05:38:08 hsivonen: Accent-sensitive search per language, e.g., for Finnish. 05:38:43 ... I have only once seen a complaint about that. 05:38:57 ... That is what Firefox do. 05:39:27 ... Chrome and Safari search accent-insensitive. 05:40:11 ... But if you're UI language is Finnish or Swedish, then non-spacing accents are not ignored. 05:40:58 ... Need documenting what the cases and languages are. I've been asked to write it up, but haven't done so yet. 05:41:48 eemeli: So we should change the ‘should’ (in ‘SHOULD ignore diacritics’) to a ‘may’. 05:41:58 s/then non-spacing accents are not ignored/then accents that are analyzed to form a separate base letter are not ignored/ 05:42:25 s/you're/your 05:43:53 xfq: UAs may provide different UIs. 05:44:47 q+ 05:46:53 Looking at example in the spec of Dürst vs Duerst for German. 05:47:29 ack eemeli 05:47:45 present+ Nicolò 05:47:51 present+ Andreu 05:47:56 present+ Itoe 05:47:59 Introduction of some observers: Nicolò, Andreu and Itoe 05:48:47 Topic: DOM localization 05:49:13 eemeli: Breakout about this tomorrow. 05:49:35 ... Pretty easy to get 90 or 95% of the way. 05:49:55 ... But the last few percent can be hard, depending on the model you start with. 05:50:29 ... We have quite a bit of experience with localization of UI/UX. 05:50:55 ... Localization is more than translation. 05:50:59 nicolo-ribaudo has joined #i18n 05:51:58 ... Automated translation is pretty decent these days, but it different for word in a UI. What does ‘accept» on a button mean? 05:52:08 s/word/words/ 05:52:25 ... Still need human translators. 05:52:33 q+ 05:52:53 q? 05:53:10 ... Goal is to have the web platform support localization, i.e., HTML. 05:53:34 ... Compare how CSS attached to element. 05:53:59 ... A lot of work has been done in Unicode on MessageFormat. 05:54:15 ... What does a single message look like? How do you format it? 05:55:17 ... We need an imperative way to do localization, as well as a declarative way. 05:56:20 ... This needs work in HTML, but also work on a file format for holding the information. JSON probably not good enough. 05:56:58 ... There are various formats in use, including JSON or XML-based. 05:57:42 ... Question for this group is how much of the incubation for this should happen here? 05:58:16 ... Firefox has a lot experience with this and we have a system for building the frontend this way. 05:59:19 florian: It says ‘DOM’ localization. You mean a system where the localization happens in one document, with one URL? 05:59:41 ack florian 05:59:44 RRSAgent, make minutes 05:59:46 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/09-i18n-minutes.html xfq 05:59:52 eemeli: There is no single correct solution. Can be via a URL or some other state. 06:00:08 florian: You mentioned the Firefox UI, which doesn't have a URL. 06:00:35 eemeli: Not a visible URL, but internally it has a similar identifier. 06:01:17 florian: So also for different versions of a local document, as for an app? 06:01:20 eemeli: Yes. 06:01:47 ... Breakout session is tomorrow morning. 06:28:30 saji has joined #i18n 06:30:05 RRSAgent, make minutes 06:30:07 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/09-i18n-minutes.html xfq 06:30:39 nicolo-ribaudo has joined #i18n 06:31:13 berlysia has joined #i18n 06:37:00 r12a has joined #i18n 06:37:16 Topic: CSS 06:38:08 Topic: Ruby 06:38:17 r12a: there's markup and CSS for ruby 06:38:25 ... ruby is used in Chinese and Japanese 06:38:32 ... Korean and Mongolian a little bit 06:39:00 ... a couple of years ago, you had a bit of money to develop an HTML add-on spec 06:39:09 ... it'd be great to know what the progress is 06:39:40 [florian talks about the funding issue] 06:40:17 florian: my plan is this month to chase up in what has happened during in the horizontal review 06:40:33 ... which is a little bit from i18n and not from anyone else 06:40:50 ... my understanding is that firefox implements all that we have in the spec 06:41:00 ... amazon kindle implements some of what we have in this spec 06:41:18 bobby has joined #i18n 06:41:19 ... the part that would be pushed to a level 2 06:41:29 ... it's basically the rtc part of the markup 06:41:35 ... and the multi-layered ruby 06:42:11 ... within this month or so enough work to actually call for CR 06:42:31 ... on the CSS side of things there remains plenty of work to do 06:43:00 ... there's diminishing returns to working on the spec 06:43:06 ... before impls catch up 06:43:26 ... the CSS spec pretty much picks the html set extension we've been talking about 06:43:49 ... i don't know how productive it is you're too far ahead of the impls 06:44:24 r12a: i don't think we can expect much movement on the impls before we have the markups 06:44:36 ... we have it in draft form, it is published as a WD 06:46:31 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue%20state%3Aopen%20label%3As%3Ahtml-ruby-extensions 06:48:21 r12a: would it be possible to create L1 and L2 at the same time? 06:48:26 florian: yes 06:50:15 [Discuss how and when to draft L2] 06:50:57 florian: for example, for rtc, my plan will be to leave it in L1, marked at risk until we're forced to trying to go to REC 06:52:30 [Discuss if we ever want to go to REC] 06:53:22 florian: while we have 2 impls 06:53:22 ... one of them is not a browser 06:53:31 ... that means this text will not be accepted by whatwg 06:53:45 ... 2. we have some maintenance work to do on it 06:54:10 ... tts representation of ruby 06:54:27 ... will likely need some additional attributes with some new values 06:55:19 ... we would offer pull requests against the HTML spec to keep that subset in sync 06:56:10 r12a: it just seems to me that the going to REC bit adds extra time and effort 06:56:23 ... and knocks things out of the spec that haven't been implemented 06:56:36 ... we can do CR and push implementers to implement it 06:56:45 ... then it just makes life simpler 06:57:19 duerst has joined #i18n 06:58:08 r12a: rtc is not that much more to do 06:58:12 ... it's in the parser already 07:00:21 [Discuss how to test it in Amazon Kindle] 07:02:34 Topic: CSS 07:03:12 bobby: four Chinese typeface styles 07:03:19 ... Chinese do not have italics 07:03:27 ... we change typefaces for emphasis 07:03:29 andreubotella has joined #i18n 07:03:48 ... like switching between Hei (sans-serif) and Kai 07:04:01 ... we can list all Kai system fonts 07:04:06 ... that's stupid, but works 07:04:22 ... CSS ffonts L4 introduced a generic() function 07:04:33 s/ffonts/fonts/ 07:06:01 xfq: @@2 07:06:22 Bert_mobile has joined #i18n 07:06:23 florian: the font fingerprinting problem is more than tricky 07:06:26 ... it's hard 07:06:36 r12a: I seem to remember we were getting closer 07:06:59 florian: I think we were getting pretty close in terms of allowing people to do various things 07:07:06 ... some of which might be the right one 07:07:43 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/11775 07:07:44 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/11775 -> Issue 11775 [meta][css-fonts-4] Index of local font issues: fingerprinting, I18n, privacy (by svgeesus) [css-fonts-4] [i18n-tracker] [meta] [privacy-tracker] 07:09:12 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CJK_Unified_Ideographs_Extension_G 07:09:17 bobby: another case 07:09:24 ... Unihan Extension G 07:09:31 ... very recent new block in Unicode 07:09:51 ... the Jigmo font has glyphs from extention G 07:10:03 ... but if it's a local font 07:10:10 ... Safari can't load it 07:10:14 ... and it's a large font 07:10:52 I made a demo a while ago: https://xfq.github.io/large-webfont/ 07:12:56 florian: if we want to talk about multiple things with CSSWG, probably do not start with this issue 07:13:01 ... it will consume all the time 07:13:26 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/11257 07:13:27 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/11257 -> Issue 11257 [css-text-decor] Control the line height / proximity of text containing emphasis marks (by xfq) [css-text-decor-3] [css-text-decor-4] [i18n-needs-resolution] [i18n-jlreq] [i18n-clreq] [i18n-klreq] [i18n-mlreq] 07:13:47 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/10844 07:13:48 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/10844 -> CLOSED Issue 10844 [css-overflow] Line-clamp and approaches to ellipsis insertion (by frivoal) [css-overflow-4] [Closed Accepted by CSSWG Resolution] [i18n-tracker] [Needs Testcase (WPT)] [i18n-jlreq] [i18n-alreq] [topic: line-clamp] 07:14:34 Andreu: CSSWG #10844 07:14:35 Issue 10844 not found 07:14:43 ... this is a closed issue 07:14:54 ... but I do not agree with Addison's comments in the issue 07:15:14 florian: I'll introduce line-clamp 07:15:33 ... there already exists something in CSS which people often confuse this with 07:15:52 ... we're not talking about the thing that lets you add a dot dot dot at the end of a line 07:15:58 ... that exceeds its box 07:16:10 ... when a line is too long and it overflows in the inline direction 07:17:14 florian: we have solid agreement with i18n and CSS WGs is that the chopping should happen logically not physically 07:17:25 ... when we're doing this in multiple lines 07:17:29 ... but 07:17:48 ... the removal of extra content to make room for the ellipsis is logical 07:17:56 ... but physically where does the ellipsis go? 07:18:55 Andreu: the ellipsis indicates that the text is truncated 07:19:08 Bert_mobile has left #i18n 07:19:29 ... does it indicate that the embedding level is truncated or does it indicate that the paragraph level is truncated? 07:19:47 ... I showed several examples to Arabic and Hebrew speakers 07:20:01 ... including multiple nested levels of Hebrew and English 07:20:24 ... they did seem to agree that it would be better to place the ellipsis at the visual end of the line 07:20:53 ... the way the CSSWG has resolved on this is in agreement with what Andreu wants to do 07:21:13 ... I don't think is in conflict with what i18n WG has said as a formal resolution 07:21:15 ... however 07:21:22 ... the last comment that Addison left 07:21:35 ... seems to suggest another way 07:23:27 eemeli: I think if you've got user research, even if it's informal 07:23:44 ... that is strongly indicative that speakers think paragraph level makes more sense 07:23:55 ... that sounds very believable to me 07:24:48 ... this feels like a thing that what the humans expect does not necessarily match what logic might dictate 07:24:55 ... or you can argue the logic either way 07:25:27 Andreu: I was trying to implement Addison's suggestion in Chrome 07:25:43 ... this is completely alien to the way that Chrome or other browsers do things 07:25:51 ... because it's just at the wrong level 07:25:58 ... at the wrong place in the layout stage 07:26:10 RRSAgent, make minutes 07:26:11 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/09-i18n-minutes.html xfq 07:26:26 scribe+ Bert 07:26:42 RRSAgent, make minutes 07:26:43 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/09-i18n-minutes.html xfq 07:27:09 Bert: it depends on what kind of symbol you use 07:27:21 ... ellipsis vs arrow 07:28:24 ... if you end with a hyphenated word 07:28:54 r12a: be careful when you're saying hyphenation 07:29:01 ... do you mean words with hyphens in between 07:29:17 ... or do you mean end of line? 07:29:48 florian: currently we use the same logic as what we use for line breaking 07:30:10 ... we're tryiing to reuse the existing mechanism of CSS 07:30:17 ... avoid reinventing them poorly 07:30:24 s/tryiing/trying 07:32:22 Andreu: in my impl 07:32:51 ... I had just been assuming that you can compute the answers ahead of time 07:33:17 Bert: hanging ellipsis? 07:33:26 florian: separate question 07:34:48 eemeli: if you're a human dealing with this 07:35:10 ... @@2 07:36:00 r12a: Arabic language does not use hyphenation 07:36:08 ... but Arabic script used for Uyghur 07:36:14 ... you'll find lots of hyphenation 07:36:35 r12a: Persian doesn't 07:37:07 https://github.com/w3c/hlreq/issues/8 07:37:07 https://github.com/w3c/hlreq/issues/8 -> Issue 8 Hebrew Hyphen (by r12a) [i:segmentation] [s:hebr] 07:38:57 Topic: breakout sessions 07:39:19 r12a: wcag is trying to create readability guidelines 07:39:32 ... like leaving a certain amout of spacing between lines 07:39:39 ... it works for english 07:39:46 ... but not necessary for other scripts 07:40:17 ... they put together a task force that is looking at hwo they can extend wcag guidelines so that it meets the needs of people who use different scripts 07:40:33 ... they're struggling a bit in terms of how they're gonna capture that info 07:40:58 ... they've tried to choose 5 scripts 07:41:10 ... latin, cyrillic 07:42:38 RRSAgent, make minutes 07:42:39 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/09-i18n-minutes.html xfq 07:51:20 r12a has joined #i18n 07:58:38 r12a-again has joined #i18n 08:00:14 r12a_ has joined #i18n 08:00:20 Zakim has left #i18n