IRC log of i18n on 2025-11-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/11/09-i18n-irc
23:55:34 [addison]
Meeting: Internationalization Working Group - TPAC 2025
23:55:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/09-i18n-minutes.html addison
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present+ Addison, Fuqiao
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present+ Eemeli
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present+ Bobby
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present+ Martin
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present+ Florian
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present+ Bert
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RRSAgent, make minutes
00:10:10 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/09-i18n-minutes.html xfq
00:10:40 [xfq]
chair: addison
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RRSAgent, make minutes
00:10:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/09-i18n-minutes.html xfq
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00:14:31 [xfq]
scribe+
00:14:34 [xfq]
Topic: Introductions
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Richard Ishida
00:14:49 [xfq]
scribe+ addison
00:15:26 [xfq]
Martin Dürst
00:15:37 [xfq]
Eemeli Aro
00:15:43 [xfq]
Florian Rivoal
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00:15:57 [xfq]
Bert Bos
00:16:17 [xfq]
Fuqiao Xue
00:16:25 [xfq]
Daisuke Shiohara
00:16:30 [xfq]
present+ Daisuke Shiohara
00:16:43 [xfq]
Ryusei Saijiki
00:16:49 [xfq]
present+ Ryusei Saijiki
00:17:03 [xfq]
Bobby Tung
00:17:09 [Bert`]
present+
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present+ atsushi
00:18:37 [xfq]
Addison Phillips
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00:19:05 [xfq]
https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/86ea031d-776b-426e-aa2a-bdf6ba6d50af/
00:19:12 [addison]
Topic: Agenda Parking Lot
00:19:32 [r12a]
agenda+
00:19:40 [r12a]
agenda?
00:19:47 [r12a]
oops
00:20:45 [xfq]
RRSAgent, make minutes
00:20:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/09-i18n-minutes.html xfq
00:21:04 [berlysia]
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00:22:11 [xfq]
addison: the parking lot is just requests that we have
00:24:18 [schenney]
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00:24:45 [xfq]
Topic: DOM localization
00:25:01 [xfq]
eemeli: a couple of different items on dom localization
00:25:15 [xfq]
... should this be a thing that should be done?
00:25:31 [xfq]
and if we do would this be going into the html spec eventually?
00:25:54 [xfq]
... separately from that where do we work on and incubate and standardize the representation of a message resource as a file format?
00:26:04 [xfq]
... does not belong in the html spec
00:26:33 [xfq]
... is this group a right place to incubate some or all parts of this?
00:26:45 [xfq]
... or should that technically be happening somwhere else?
00:27:33 [xfq]
... it is sounding to me like it would be much more benefical to talk about dom l10n more in depth after tomorrow's breakout session
00:28:09 [xfq]
florian: i would appreciate a 5-minute intro
00:28:53 [xfq]
addison: i would suggest maybe if this is necessary do it a little later
00:29:06 [xfq]
... there is no way to localize a web app built-in
00:29:17 [xfq]
... everybody rolling their own little l10n thing
00:29:27 [xfq]
... eemeli and i have been working on MF2 for a while
00:29:40 [xfq]
... would like to see MF2 be a native participant in the web
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00:30:53 [xfq]
r12a: tomorrow morning there's also the wcag and non-latin language breakout
00:30:57 [xfq]
... i can go to that
00:31:05 [xfq]
... i would be useful there
00:31:17 [xfq]
... i don't know whether anybody wlse needs to be at the wcag one
00:31:32 [xfq]
addison: i suspect it's going to take more than one conversation
00:33:32 [xfq]
Topic: IRI vulnerability, IRI status in general (cf. RFC3987, WHATWG URL)
00:33:48 [xfq]
addison: the errata piece is a short conversation
00:34:00 [xfq]
... the larger conversation is we haven't finished this work
00:34:05 [xfq]
... WHATWG URL etc.
00:34:40 [xfq]
r12a: the ICANN UA Expert Group is looking at what standards need to be address
00:34:48 [xfq]
... you came up obviously with the IRI stuff
00:34:50 [xfq]
... just FYI
00:35:34 [xfq]
eemeli: @@1
00:36:17 [xfq]
eemeli: is there any representation of what is missing from the URL spec for it to be a full successor to the IRI spec?
00:36:37 [xfq]
martin: i think it depends on probably for web browsers there's not much that is missing
00:36:56 [xfq]
... on the other hand there are things like how exactly should bidi work?
00:37:02 [xfq]
... that's a very difficult problem
00:38:32 [xfq]
addison: I know mark davis is working on linkification
00:38:45 [xfq]
... if that were to turn to a standard of some sort
00:38:51 [xfq]
... you would want harmony on that
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00:39:45 [xfq]
martin: it's very clearly a problem
00:40:04 [xfq]
... if there's an easy solution somebody would easily do it
00:40:14 [xfq]
... but the problem is that there's no solution
00:40:37 [xfq]
... and in browsers @@ non-ASCII copy that out it turns into percent escaping
00:40:55 [xfq]
addison: the address bar is a special place
00:41:09 [xfq]
... the challenge is that the address bar is not the only place where urls need to go
00:41:35 [xfq]
martin: it's more like a UI issue
00:42:16 [xfq]
eemeli: feels like the easiest here is to consider to consider all of the slashes to be directionally rtl
00:42:26 [xfq]
... and to break up parts according to those
00:43:13 [xfq]
martin: the IRI spec currently say something but browsers do it a little bit different
00:45:16 [eemeli]
s/directionally rtl/directionally ltr/
00:46:14 [xfq]
addison: the url standard has some about presentation maybe not full
00:46:50 [xfq]
eemeli: can we identify the pieces that ought to be added to the url standard so that we could possibly even deprecate the iri spec?
00:48:04 [xfq]
... martin would you be interested in putting something on a list of what is missing from the URL standard?
00:48:08 [xfq]
martin: i can do that
00:48:16 [addison]
ACTION: martin: create a list of gaps in URL standard
00:48:23 [gb]
Cannot create action. Validation failed. Maybe martin is not a valid user for w3c/i18n-actions?
00:48:41 [addison]
ACTION: duerst: create a list of gaps in URL standard
00:48:41 [gb]
Cannot create action. Validation failed. Maybe duerst is not a valid user for w3c/i18n-actions?
00:49:08 [addison]
ACTION: addison: remind @duerst to create a list of gaps in URL standard
00:49:09 [gb]
Created -> action #196 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/196
00:50:20 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/196 -> Action 196 remind @duerst to create a list of gaps in URL standard (on aphillips, duerst) due 2025-11-17
00:51:53 [xfq]
Topic: CSS
00:52:18 [xfq]
addison: we should think about how best to engage
00:52:47 [addison]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue%20state%3Aopen%20label%3Awg%3Acss ==> 156 open
00:53:02 [xfq]
... i think that meeting at one time was very helpful
00:53:07 [addison]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue%20state%3Aopen%20label%3AAgenda%2BI18N%2BCSS
00:53:49 [xfq]
addison: we have shared interest
00:54:04 [xfq]
florian: i think the problem is not shared interest
00:54:33 [xfq]
... my lack of attendance of our sync up meetings
00:54:44 [xfq]
... i don't believe i can realistically be that champion
00:54:49 [xfq]
... tho i wish i could
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00:55:05 [xfq]
addison: as long as css uses some mechanism like our agenda+ tag
00:55:19 [xfq]
... or something to say this one is currently active and so interaction would be useful
00:55:33 [r12a-again]
q+
00:55:39 [addison]
ack next
00:56:23 [xfq]
r12a: i18n is part of the architecture , not an add-on
00:56:31 [xfq]
florian: i completely agree with that
00:56:49 [xfq]
... i don't thiknn there is a general neglect of the i1n apects
00:57:04 [xfq]
... but i18n questions canbe of cvarious levels of complexity
00:57:20 [xfq]
s/thiknn/think
00:57:26 [xfq]
s/canbe/can be
00:57:40 [xfq]
addison: we do tend to notice when there is action on something
00:58:03 [xfq]
... at least i'm looking for new pending issues
00:58:13 [xfq]
... we'll need to make sure joel gets that message
00:58:32 [xfq]
... there are some higher level things like physical versus logical
00:58:38 [xfq]
... on our radar for multiple years
00:58:44 [xfq]
... needs to get done
00:59:06 [xfq]
r12a: it needs to be done because customers for css are people from all around the world
00:59:34 [xfq]
... one thing we could look at is there's a champion in the csswg for i18n
00:59:53 [xfq]
... the champion doesn't have to know anything in great detail about i18n
01:00:06 [xfq]
... but they need to be aware when those discussions need to take place
01:00:16 [xfq]
... and they need to engage discussion
01:00:46 [xfq]
florian: when we design something new do we take i18n considerations into account properly? i would say the answer is yes we do
01:01:26 [xfq]
... logical vs physical thing is the language as a whole has a gap
01:01:50 [xfq]
... maybe it's insuffcient lack of attnetion
01:03:56 [xfq]
r12a: for me the problem is not so much the detailed work
01:04:13 [xfq]
... but having somebody monitoring what's happening and trying to facilitate discussions
01:04:25 [xfq]
... we don't have any meetings scheduled anymore
01:04:36 [xfq]
addison: we didn't accomplish anything
01:05:26 [xfq]
r12a: it's not "let's do extra i18n things"
01:05:38 [xfq]
... it's a case of making sure that CSS meets theh needs of the world
01:05:54 [xfq]
... it's apot of the process of building CSS
01:06:05 [xfq]
s/theh/the/
01:06:12 [xfq]
s/apot/a part
01:08:24 [xfq]
Topic: Requirements for the layout of rosters
01:08:28 [xfq]
https://github.com/w3c/clreq/issues/268
01:08:28 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/clreq/issues/268 -> Issue 268 Requirements for the layout of rosters (by xfq) [未來工作/future] [i:justification]
01:09:38 [xfq]
https://github.com/w3c/clreq/issues/268
01:10:55 [atsushi]
scribe+
01:11:05 [atsushi]
xfq: common in traditional media, alignment by column
01:11:32 [atsushi]
... aligned in three characters, and for two character cell there is space in middle
01:11:40 [atsushi]
... how to do this with CSS
01:12:22 [atsushi]
xfq: dot in second line connects two, in half size
01:12:50 [atsushi]
... for thrid column it should align at the first
01:13:10 [atsushi]
florian: for current CSS, text-justify
01:13:46 [atsushi]
... justify by name but not with character, name need to be marked up by span or some
01:14:28 [atsushi]
florian: flexbox might also work potentially
01:16:04 [atsushi]
xfq: ideally alignment should not be done by ideographic character, but by system spacing
01:16:22 [atsushi]
r12a: names should have minimum length, and to be aligned by system
01:17:09 [xfq]
florian: I think you can get close to this with either flex or grid
01:17:16 [xfq]
... either will have different shortcomings
01:18:24 [xfq]
martin: maybe clreq can see how far they get with grid/flex
01:18:35 [xfq]
... and CSSWG can help
01:18:47 [atsushi]
scribe-
01:20:28 [xfq]
r12a: what would help is if you could put the actual text for that black box in the github issue
01:20:32 [xfq]
xfq: I can do that
01:20:35 [xfq]
RRSAgent, make minutes
01:20:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/09-i18n-minutes.html xfq
01:21:23 [xfq]
Topic: CSS
01:21:24 [xfq]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue%20state%3Aopen%20label%3Awg%3Acss
01:22:12 [xfq]
Topic: Ruby
01:23:12 [xfq]
r12a: i want to show people what we have in terms of finding issues related to a particular language such as japanese and ruby and so on
01:23:30 [r12a-again]
https://www.w3.org/International/
01:23:48 [r12a-again]
https://www.w3.org/TR/typography/
01:23:49 [xfq]
r12a: this is the i18n homepage
01:24:08 [xfq]
... if you look under language enablement there's a link called language enablement index
01:24:16 [berlysia]
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01:24:16 [xfq]
... if you scroll down that page
01:24:47 [r12a-again]
https://www.w3.org/TR/arab-lreq/#vertical_text
01:24:53 [xfq]
[r12a shows the page]
01:26:48 [r12a-again]
https://www.w3.org/TR/jpan-lreq/#inline_notes
01:27:05 [r12a-again]
https://www.w3.org/TR/hani-lreq/#inline_notes
01:27:26 [r12a-again]
https://www.w3.org/TR/kore-lreq/#inline_notes
01:27:38 [r12a-again]
https://www.w3.org/TR/mong-lreq/#inline_notes
01:29:24 [xfq]
florian: i know that there is a wealth of interconnected information in these sets of pages
01:29:46 [xfq]
... it's never quite been clear to me on when i'm supposed to go there
01:30:53 [xfq]
r12a: if you want to check reqs go the reqs page
01:31:05 [xfq]
... if you want to check tests go to the tests page
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02:14:09 [xfq]
Topic: Fonts
02:14:22 [xfq]
bobby: limitations about local fonts in CSS
02:14:40 [xfq]
... cannnot use system fonts like Kai and Fangsong
02:14:46 [xfq]
... important in Chinese typography
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02:15:09 [xfq]
... use for emphasize etc.
02:15:21 [xfq]
... some system fonts only have one weight
02:15:28 [xfq]
... we do not use italics
02:15:48 [xfq]
... we cannot use synthetic oblique fonts
02:16:02 [xfq]
... we change typeface for emphasis
02:16:11 [xfq]
... if there's no way to use a local font
02:16:21 [xfq]
... there is not way to indicate emphasis
02:16:33 [xfq]
... we talked about this in clreq calls
02:16:51 [xfq]
... finally we have a new generic() function in CSS fonts L4
02:17:03 [xfq]
... but I don't know when it will be implemented in browsers
02:17:06 [xfq]
... that's the problem
02:17:40 [xfq]
... it's related to the CSS-i18n champion issue we just talked about
02:18:19 [xfq]
bobby: we have documented this in clreq
02:19:14 [xfq]
xfq: they are documented in the gap analysis
02:20:12 [xfq]
eemeli: i can fowrard this to the right people
02:20:17 [xfq]
r12a: who should we talk to?
02:20:34 [xfq]
eemeli: Henri
02:20:44 [xfq]
... does quite a bit of work with characters
02:21:45 [atsushi]
xfq: we had discussed within i18n, and have more than 10 trackers on this
02:22:08 [atsushi]
r12a: let's take this up again when florian is back
02:22:33 [atsushi]
xfq: for ruby, Murata-san is wokring on, and will join tomorrow?
02:22:50 [xfq]
Topic: Glossary and the normative approach
02:23:15 [xfq]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/pulls
02:23:53 [Bobby]
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02:24:26 [atsushi]
xfq: have discussed this glossary for a while, ready to merge?
02:24:43 [xfq]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/pull/95
02:24:43 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/pull/95 -> Pull Request 95 Update the definition of 'Mojibake' (by xfq)
02:24:55 [atsushi]
xfq: #95 for Mojibake
02:24:55 [xfq]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/pull/95/files
02:24:55 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/95 -> CLOSED Action 95 write endorsement of html ruby markup extensions (on aphillips) due 2024-05-02
02:26:17 [xfq]
[xfq introduces the issue]
02:26:54 [xfq]
s/issue/PR/
02:34:14 [xfq]
martin: it's not an issue of encoding, but an issue of decoding
02:35:05 [xfq]
boby: we can still find some old web pages on the web that use shift-jis and when you open it with modern browsers
02:35:11 [xfq]
... they decode it with utf-8
02:35:17 [xfq]
... and you cannot read anything
02:35:24 [xfq]
r12a: tofu is a different thing
02:35:28 [xfq]
... lack of glyph
02:35:45 [xfq]
martin: or lack of fonts
02:36:00 [xfq]
r12a: how to say mojibake in chinese?
02:36:00 [xfq]
bobby: 乱码
02:36:11 [xfq]
Luànmǎ
02:36:29 [bobby]
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02:36:35 [xfq]
乱 means disorder, confused
02:36:40 [xfq]
码 means encoding
02:37:45 [bobby]
https://zh-yue.wikipedia.org/wiki/亂碼
02:43:45 [xfq]
xfq: specdev uses Mojibake
02:43:55 [xfq]
... i don't think any other spec uses it
02:44:12 [xfq]
r12a: so it's a informative term and we can have Luànmǎ too
02:44:24 [xfq]
... maybe it's not so important for the specs
02:44:59 [xfq]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/pull/89
02:44:59 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/issues/89 -> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/pull/89
02:46:32 [xfq]
[xfq introduces the PR]
02:47:48 [xfq]
ok to merge
02:48:17 [xfq]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/pull/88
02:48:18 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/pull/88 -> Pull Request 88 Update the definition of 'Bidirectional isolate' and 'Bidi isolation' (by xfq)
02:48:42 [atsushi]
[xfq shows on screen for discussion on text/change in PR]
02:50:41 [xfq]
ok to merge
02:51:29 [xfq]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/pull/91/files
02:51:30 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/pull/91 -> Pull Request 91 Update the definition of 'First-strong detection' (by xfq)
02:53:57 [xfq]
martin: maybe say something like first-strong is used when auto is set
02:54:08 [xfq]
xfq: i can add a link
02:55:26 [xfq]
r12a: "then uses that to guess at the appropriate base direction for the string as a whole" is missing from the new def
02:55:40 [xfq]
martin: "guess" is the core here
02:56:01 [xfq]
... it should be used when the directionality is not known yet
02:57:54 [xfq]
Topic: Open issues and PRs
02:58:02 [atsushi]
xfq: jumping into pending issues
02:58:07 [xfq]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-drafts/pull/701
02:58:08 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-drafts/pull/701 -> Pull Request 701 Update qa-i18n (by xfq)
02:58:58 [atsushi]
xfq: raised PR while ago, adding line to list of i18n targets
02:59:31 [xfq]
martin: "Keyboard usage" to "Keyboard layout and usage"
03:01:30 [xfq]
r12a: "Accessibility requirements" is too vague
03:01:44 [xfq]
... maybe things like "readability requirements" and "legal requirements"
03:02:25 [xfq]
... "script-specific readability requirements"
03:03:21 [xfq]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-drafts/pull/702
03:03:22 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-drafts/pull/702 -> Pull Request 702 Add a brief mention of security issues (by xfq)
03:03:36 [xfq]
https://deploy-preview-702--i18n-drafts.netlify.app/questions/qa-escapes.en.html#security
03:05:38 [xfq]
eemeli: "inserting it into HTML"
03:06:06 [xfq]
... from a reader's point of view there's a little ambiguity of what "inserting it into HTML" means
03:06:18 [xfq]
... the way you're using it is correct
03:06:32 [xfq]
... but it is easy to misunderstand
03:06:54 [xfq]
r12a: and it's only the syntax characters
03:07:09 [saji0]
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03:07:13 [xfq]
... if i say hello in another language
03:07:20 [xfq]
... you don't need to escape it
03:12:26 [Zakim]
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03:14:37 [xfq]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-drafts/pull/705/files
03:14:38 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-drafts/pull/705 -> Pull Request 705 Use "text content" instead of "content" (by xfq)
03:19:28 [xfq]
r12a: we can remove "There are many character encodings to choose from."
03:22:18 [xfq]
RRSAgent, make minutes
03:22:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/09-i18n-minutes.html xfq
03:32:38 [r12a]
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05:04:58 [xfq]
Topic: Mention layout mirroring for bidi
05:05:57 [xfq]
https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/163
05:05:58 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/163 -> Pull Request 163 Mention layout mirroring for bidi (by xfq)
05:06:01 [xfq]
https://deploy-preview-163--bp-i18n-specdev.netlify.app/#typ_bidi_styling
05:06:58 [Bert]
xfq: There were some comments and I made a pull request ^^
05:08:03 [hsivonen]
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05:08:58 [xfq]
eemeli: "It should preferably automatic" -> "It should be preferably automatic"
05:09:08 [Bert]
eemeli: Typo: missing "be"
05:11:45 [Bert]
martin: what languages use sloping in both directions?
05:12:00 [Bert]
r12a_: In Hebrew it is a choice
05:12:08 [saji5]
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05:12:14 [xfq]
Topic: Add some best practices to string-search
05:12:18 [xfq]
https://github.com/w3c/string-search/pull/28
05:12:19 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/string-search/pull/28 -> Pull Request 28 Add some best practices (by xfq)
05:12:38 [Bert]
s/directions/directions (in section 9.4)
05:13:08 [r12a_]
https://r12a.github.io/scripts/hebr/he.html#fontstyle
05:13:59 [r12a_]
https://r12a.github.io/scripts/arab/arb.html#letterforms
05:14:23 [Bert]
xfq: This is about string searching. I added that UAs should by default offer case-insensitive searching, using Unicode case folding.
05:16:55 [Bert]
eemeli: Section 5.18 of Unicode 17
05:17:24 [bobby]
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05:17:46 [Bert]
xfq: Current string search document doesn't refer to Unicode diretcly, but does point to charmod-norm, which does.
05:18:03 [Bert]
... That might be enough.
05:19:00 [Bert]
eemeli: Maybe better to link directly and reduce need for clicks.
05:19:05 [hsivonen]
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05:19:27 [Bert]
... Another typo: s/forms forms/character forms/
05:19:31 [hsivonen]
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05:20:50 [Bert]
r12a_: Or maybe just characters, instead of character forms.
05:21:15 [hsivonen]
q+
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05:22:30 [Bert]
xfq: Another patch is to add ‘User agents MAY normalize numeric values to their ASCII forms (0-9) in string searching operations.’
05:23:14 [Bert]
eemeli: Is that about characters that represent numbers?
05:23:18 [Bert]
xfq: Yes
05:23:28 [Bert]
hsivonen: Is this document normative?
05:24:47 [Bert]
... Performance difference on long documents for collator-based search.
05:24:56 [Itoe]
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05:25:48 [hsivonen]
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nUCQxSCCIdfBas5l-jGu58O38FaCLuvlsBFAjvXrgNM/edit?tab=t.0
05:26:02 [Bert]
... There is a request to me to write about this. Haven't written it yet. Let me paste something ^^
05:26:56 [Bert]
... Firefox doesn't do some things from this list.
05:27:42 [Bert]
xfq: I'll read though that document.
05:29:08 [Bert]
hsivonen: Firefox probably doesn't want to add a checkbox to ignore accents.
05:29:22 [Bert]
xfq: That's why I wrote ‘may’.
05:29:33 [berlysia]
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05:29:52 [Bert]
... as in ‘MAY provide an option for diacritics-sensitive search’
05:31:34 [Bert]
r12a_: About ASCII digits: also search for the value if the number is not decimal?
05:31:47 [hsivonen]
s/Firefox probably doesn't want to add a checkbox to ignore accents./Firefox probably doesn't want to add a checkbox to fold numbering systems, but it could be treated as an accent difference./
05:32:43 [Bert]
eemeli: It is a ‘may’
05:33:08 [Bert]
... Allow implementers to think about what can be done.
05:34:14 [Bert]
r12a_: I've been searching a lot and keep finding things that I don't want. Such as finding é when I really want e.
05:35:15 [hsivonen]
q+
05:35:20 [Bert]
eemeli: In many languages, letters with accent are really different and you don't want to mix them.
05:35:58 [Bert]
xfq: Maybe the ‘should‘ in the diacritics rule should be a ‘may’ then.
05:36:22 [andreubotella]
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05:37:06 [Bert]
r12a_: For me that applies to digits, too: I often do want to search for the character, not for anything with that value.
05:37:25 [xfq]
ack hsivonen
05:38:08 [Bert]
hsivonen: Accent-sensitive search per language, e.g., for Finnish.
05:38:43 [Bert]
... I have only once seen a complaint about that.
05:38:57 [Bert]
... That is what Firefox do.
05:39:27 [Bert]
... Chrome and Safari search accent-insensitive.
05:40:11 [Bert]
... But if you're UI language is Finnish or Swedish, then non-spacing accents are not ignored.
05:40:58 [Bert]
... Need documenting what the cases and languages are. I've been asked to write it up, but haven't done so yet.
05:41:48 [Bert]
eemeli: So we should change the ‘should’ (in ‘SHOULD ignore diacritics’) to a ‘may’.
05:41:58 [hsivonen]
s/then non-spacing accents are not ignored/then accents that are analyzed to form a separate base letter are not ignored/
05:42:25 [Bert]
s/you're/your
05:43:53 [Bert]
xfq: UAs may provide different UIs.
05:44:47 [eemeli]
q+
05:46:53 [Bert]
Looking at example in the spec of Dürst vs Duerst for German.
05:47:29 [xfq]
ack eemeli
05:47:45 [xfq]
present+ Nicolò
05:47:51 [xfq]
present+ Andreu
05:47:56 [xfq]
present+ Itoe
05:47:59 [Bert]
Introduction of some observers: Nicolò, Andreu and Itoe
05:48:47 [Bert]
Topic: DOM localization
05:49:13 [Bert]
eemeli: Breakout about this tomorrow.
05:49:35 [Bert]
... Pretty easy to get 90 or 95% of the way.
05:49:55 [Bert]
... But the last few percent can be hard, depending on the model you start with.
05:50:29 [Bert]
... We have quite a bit of experience with localization of UI/UX.
05:50:55 [Bert]
... Localization is more than translation.
05:50:59 [nicolo-ribaudo]
nicolo-ribaudo has joined #i18n
05:51:58 [Bert]
... Automated translation is pretty decent these days, but it different for word in a UI. What does ‘accept» on a button mean?
05:52:08 [Bert]
s/word/words/
05:52:25 [Bert]
... Still need human translators.
05:52:33 [florian]
q+
05:52:53 [florian]
q?
05:53:10 [Bert]
... Goal is to have the web platform support localization, i.e., HTML.
05:53:34 [Bert]
... Compare how CSS attached to element.
05:53:59 [Bert]
... A lot of work has been done in Unicode on MessageFormat.
05:54:15 [Bert]
... What does a single message look like? How do you format it?
05:55:17 [Bert]
... We need an imperative way to do localization, as well as a declarative way.
05:56:20 [Bert]
... This needs work in HTML, but also work on a file format for holding the information. JSON probably not good enough.
05:56:58 [Bert]
... There are various formats in use, including JSON or XML-based.
05:57:42 [Bert]
... Question for this group is how much of the incubation for this should happen here?
05:58:16 [Bert]
... Firefox has a lot experience with this and we have a system for building the frontend this way.
05:59:19 [Bert]
florian: It says ‘DOM’ localization. You mean a system where the localization happens in one document, with one URL?
05:59:41 [xfq]
ack florian
05:59:44 [xfq]
RRSAgent, make minutes
05:59:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/09-i18n-minutes.html xfq
05:59:52 [Bert]
eemeli: There is no single correct solution. Can be via a URL or some other state.
06:00:08 [Bert]
florian: You mentioned the Firefox UI, which doesn't have a URL.
06:00:35 [Bert]
eemeli: Not a visible URL, but internally it has a similar identifier.
06:01:17 [Bert]
florian: So also for different versions of a local document, as for an app?
06:01:20 [Bert]
eemeli: Yes.
06:01:47 [Bert]
... Breakout session is tomorrow morning.
06:28:30 [saji]
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06:30:05 [xfq]
RRSAgent, make minutes
06:30:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/09-i18n-minutes.html xfq
06:30:39 [nicolo-ribaudo]
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06:37:00 [r12a]
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06:37:16 [xfq]
Topic: CSS
06:38:08 [xfq]
Topic: Ruby
06:38:17 [xfq]
r12a: there's markup and CSS for ruby
06:38:25 [xfq]
... ruby is used in Chinese and Japanese
06:38:32 [xfq]
... Korean and Mongolian a little bit
06:39:00 [xfq]
... a couple of years ago, you had a bit of money to develop an HTML add-on spec
06:39:09 [xfq]
... it'd be great to know what the progress is
06:39:40 [xfq]
[florian talks about the funding issue]
06:40:17 [xfq]
florian: my plan is this month to chase up in what has happened during in the horizontal review
06:40:33 [xfq]
... which is a little bit from i18n and not from anyone else
06:40:50 [xfq]
... my understanding is that firefox implements all that we have in the spec
06:41:00 [xfq]
... amazon kindle implements some of what we have in this spec
06:41:18 [bobby]
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06:41:19 [xfq]
... the part that would be pushed to a level 2
06:41:29 [xfq]
... it's basically the rtc part of the markup
06:41:35 [xfq]
... and the multi-layered ruby
06:42:11 [xfq]
... within this month or so enough work to actually call for CR
06:42:31 [xfq]
... on the CSS side of things there remains plenty of work to do
06:43:00 [xfq]
... there's diminishing returns to working on the spec
06:43:06 [xfq]
... before impls catch up
06:43:26 [xfq]
... the CSS spec pretty much picks the html set extension we've been talking about
06:43:49 [xfq]
... i don't know how productive it is you're too far ahead of the impls
06:44:24 [xfq]
r12a: i don't think we can expect much movement on the impls before we have the markups
06:44:36 [xfq]
... we have it in draft form, it is published as a WD
06:46:31 [xfq]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue%20state%3Aopen%20label%3As%3Ahtml-ruby-extensions
06:48:21 [xfq]
r12a: would it be possible to create L1 and L2 at the same time?
06:48:26 [xfq]
florian: yes
06:50:15 [xfq]
[Discuss how and when to draft L2]
06:50:57 [xfq]
florian: for example, for rtc, my plan will be to leave it in L1, marked at risk until we're forced to trying to go to REC
06:52:30 [xfq]
[Discuss if we ever want to go to REC]
06:53:22 [xfq]
florian: while we have 2 impls
06:53:22 [xfq]
... one of them is not a browser
06:53:31 [xfq]
... that means this text will not be accepted by whatwg
06:53:45 [xfq]
... 2. we have some maintenance work to do on it
06:54:10 [xfq]
... tts representation of ruby
06:54:27 [xfq]
... will likely need some additional attributes with some new values
06:55:19 [xfq]
... we would offer pull requests against the HTML spec to keep that subset in sync
06:56:10 [xfq]
r12a: it just seems to me that the going to REC bit adds extra time and effort
06:56:23 [xfq]
... and knocks things out of the spec that haven't been implemented
06:56:36 [xfq]
... we can do CR and push implementers to implement it
06:56:45 [xfq]
... then it just makes life simpler
06:57:19 [duerst]
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06:58:08 [xfq]
r12a: rtc is not that much more to do
06:58:12 [xfq]
... it's in the parser already
07:00:21 [xfq]
[Discuss how to test it in Amazon Kindle]
07:02:34 [xfq]
Topic: CSS
07:03:12 [xfq]
bobby: four Chinese typeface styles
07:03:19 [xfq]
... Chinese do not have italics
07:03:27 [xfq]
... we change typefaces for emphasis
07:03:29 [andreubotella]
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07:03:48 [xfq]
... like switching between Hei (sans-serif) and Kai
07:04:01 [xfq]
... we can list all Kai system fonts
07:04:06 [xfq]
... that's stupid, but works
07:04:22 [xfq]
... CSS ffonts L4 introduced a generic() function
07:04:33 [xfq]
s/ffonts/fonts/
07:06:01 [xfq]
xfq: @@2
07:06:22 [Bert_mobile]
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07:06:23 [xfq]
florian: the font fingerprinting problem is more than tricky
07:06:26 [xfq]
... it's hard
07:06:36 [xfq]
r12a: I seem to remember we were getting closer
07:06:59 [xfq]
florian: I think we were getting pretty close in terms of allowing people to do various things
07:07:06 [xfq]
... some of which might be the right one
07:07:43 [xfq]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/11775
07:07:44 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/11775 -> Issue 11775 [meta][css-fonts-4] Index of local font issues: fingerprinting, I18n, privacy (by svgeesus) [css-fonts-4] [i18n-tracker] [meta] [privacy-tracker]
07:09:12 [bobby]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CJK_Unified_Ideographs_Extension_G
07:09:17 [xfq]
bobby: another case
07:09:24 [xfq]
... Unihan Extension G
07:09:31 [xfq]
... very recent new block in Unicode
07:09:51 [xfq]
... the Jigmo font has glyphs from extention G
07:10:03 [xfq]
... but if it's a local font
07:10:10 [xfq]
... Safari can't load it
07:10:14 [xfq]
... and it's a large font
07:10:52 [xfq]
<xfq> I made a demo a while ago: https://xfq.github.io/large-webfont/
07:12:56 [xfq]
florian: if we want to talk about multiple things with CSSWG, probably do not start with this issue
07:13:01 [xfq]
... it will consume all the time
07:13:26 [xfq]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/11257
07:13:27 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/11257 -> Issue 11257 [css-text-decor] Control the line height / proximity of text containing emphasis marks (by xfq) [css-text-decor-3] [css-text-decor-4] [i18n-needs-resolution] [i18n-jlreq] [i18n-clreq] [i18n-klreq] [i18n-mlreq]
07:13:47 [xfq]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/10844
07:13:48 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/10844 -> CLOSED Issue 10844 [css-overflow] Line-clamp and approaches to ellipsis insertion (by frivoal) [css-overflow-4] [Closed Accepted by CSSWG Resolution] [i18n-tracker] [Needs Testcase (WPT)] [i18n-jlreq] [i18n-alreq] [topic: line-clamp]
07:14:34 [xfq]
Andreu: CSSWG #10844
07:14:35 [gb]
Issue 10844 not found
07:14:43 [xfq]
... this is a closed issue
07:14:54 [xfq]
... but I do not agree with Addison's comments in the issue
07:15:14 [xfq]
florian: I'll introduce line-clamp
07:15:33 [xfq]
... there already exists something in CSS which people often confuse this with
07:15:52 [xfq]
... we're not talking about the thing that lets you add a dot dot dot at the end of a line
07:15:58 [xfq]
... that exceeds its box
07:16:10 [xfq]
... when a line is too long and it overflows in the inline direction
07:17:14 [xfq]
florian: we have solid agreement with i18n and CSS WGs is that the chopping should happen logically not physically
07:17:25 [xfq]
... when we're doing this in multiple lines
07:17:29 [xfq]
... but
07:17:48 [xfq]
... the removal of extra content to make room for the ellipsis is logical
07:17:56 [xfq]
... but physically where does the ellipsis go?
07:18:55 [xfq]
Andreu: the ellipsis indicates that the text is truncated
07:19:08 [Bert_mobile]
Bert_mobile has left #i18n
07:19:29 [xfq]
... does it indicate that the embedding level is truncated or does it indicate that the paragraph level is truncated?
07:19:47 [xfq]
... I showed several examples to Arabic and Hebrew speakers
07:20:01 [xfq]
... including multiple nested levels of Hebrew and English
07:20:24 [xfq]
... they did seem to agree that it would be better to place the ellipsis at the visual end of the line
07:20:53 [xfq]
... the way the CSSWG has resolved on this is in agreement with what Andreu wants to do
07:21:13 [xfq]
... I don't think is in conflict with what i18n WG has said as a formal resolution
07:21:15 [xfq]
... however
07:21:22 [xfq]
... the last comment that Addison left
07:21:35 [xfq]
... seems to suggest another way
07:23:27 [xfq]
eemeli: I think if you've got user research, even if it's informal
07:23:44 [xfq]
... that is strongly indicative that speakers think paragraph level makes more sense
07:23:55 [xfq]
... that sounds very believable to me
07:24:48 [xfq]
... this feels like a thing that what the humans expect does not necessarily match what logic might dictate
07:24:55 [xfq]
... or you can argue the logic either way
07:25:27 [xfq]
Andreu: I was trying to implement Addison's suggestion in Chrome
07:25:43 [xfq]
... this is completely alien to the way that Chrome or other browsers do things
07:25:51 [xfq]
... because it's just at the wrong level
07:25:58 [xfq]
... at the wrong place in the layout stage
07:26:10 [xfq]
RRSAgent, make minutes
07:26:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/09-i18n-minutes.html xfq
07:26:26 [xfq]
scribe+ Bert
07:26:42 [xfq]
RRSAgent, make minutes
07:26:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/09-i18n-minutes.html xfq
07:27:09 [xfq]
Bert: it depends on what kind of symbol you use
07:27:21 [xfq]
... ellipsis vs arrow
07:28:24 [xfq]
... if you end with a hyphenated word
07:28:54 [xfq]
r12a: be careful when you're saying hyphenation
07:29:01 [xfq]
... do you mean words with hyphens in between
07:29:17 [xfq]
... or do you mean end of line?
07:29:48 [xfq]
florian: currently we use the same logic as what we use for line breaking
07:30:10 [xfq]
... we're tryiing to reuse the existing mechanism of CSS
07:30:17 [xfq]
... avoid reinventing them poorly
07:30:24 [xfq]
s/tryiing/trying
07:32:22 [xfq]
Andreu: in my impl
07:32:51 [xfq]
... I had just been assuming that you can compute the answers ahead of time
07:33:17 [xfq]
Bert: hanging ellipsis?
07:33:26 [xfq]
florian: separate question
07:34:48 [xfq]
eemeli: if you're a human dealing with this
07:35:10 [xfq]
... @@2
07:36:00 [xfq]
r12a: Arabic language does not use hyphenation
07:36:08 [xfq]
... but Arabic script used for Uyghur
07:36:14 [xfq]
... you'll find lots of hyphenation
07:36:35 [xfq]
r12a: Persian doesn't
07:37:07 [xfq]
https://github.com/w3c/hlreq/issues/8
07:37:07 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/hlreq/issues/8 -> Issue 8 Hebrew Hyphen (by r12a) [i:segmentation] [s:hebr]
07:38:57 [xfq]
Topic: breakout sessions
07:39:19 [xfq]
r12a: wcag is trying to create readability guidelines
07:39:32 [xfq]
... like leaving a certain amout of spacing between lines
07:39:39 [xfq]
... it works for english
07:39:46 [xfq]
... but not necessary for other scripts
07:40:17 [xfq]
... they put together a task force that is looking at hwo they can extend wcag guidelines so that it meets the needs of people who use different scripts
07:40:33 [xfq]
... they're struggling a bit in terms of how they're gonna capture that info
07:40:58 [xfq]
... they've tried to choose 5 scripts
07:41:10 [xfq]
... latin, cyrillic
07:42:38 [xfq]
RRSAgent, make minutes
07:42:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/09-i18n-minutes.html xfq
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