19:11:10 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg
19:11:14 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/11/04-aria-apg-irc
19:11:14 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
19:11:15 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force
19:11:47 <Siri> Siri has joined #aria-apg
19:12:00 <Siri> present+
19:13:25 <jongund> present+ jongund
19:13:32 <arigilmore> present+
19:13:41 <arigilmore> No meeting next week because of TPAC
19:13:56 <Matt_King> TOPIC: Publication planning
19:14:05 <arigilmore> scribe+
19:14:27 <CurtBellew> CurtBellew has joined #aria-apg
19:14:33 <CurtBellew> present+
19:14:50 <arigilmore> Matt_King four PR's in the milestone for publication. none are technically ready yet
19:15:14 <arigilmore> Matt_King: we will not publish tomorrow, but SkipTo PR is close
19:15:37 <arigilmore> Matt_King: reviews pending from Adam_Page and arigilmore for PR 3213
19:15:56 <arigilmore> the link checker is failing, but not sure why
19:16:11 <arigilmore> jongund might need to do a merge to fix it. Didn't touch those files
19:16:48 <arigilmore> howard any idea why this is failing?
19:17:26 <arigilmore> jongund can try submitting again to see if it will resolve
19:17:45 <arigilmore> @howard a rerun should work
19:18:06 <arigilmore> jongund maybe the link I am using just has a hashtag and I need to update it
19:19:23 <arigilmore> jongund does the link checker check if a link is just a hashtag?
19:19:37 <Siri> can you add link to the PR?
19:20:13 <arigilmore> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3213
19:20:38 <arigilmore> Matt_King does the skipTo script end up creating a link with just a hash on the actual rendered page
19:20:50 <arigilmore> jongund yes if you are in IOS or android
19:20:59 <arigilmore> jongund reran it and the link checker passed
19:21:46 <arigilmore> jongund talkback and VO would be able to activate the link off the page and using javascript I can open it
19:21:59 <arigilmore> jongund this only happens in the popup mode
19:22:54 <arigilmore> jongund for some reason it does see the link, but it just won't activate normally when off screen
19:23:15 <arigilmore> Matt_King just looking for the pending reviews. This will be 1 of the 4 pending for publication
19:23:45 <arigilmore> Matt_King will change to later date for publication, but not sure when
19:24:28 <arigilmore> jongund would be nice to check on android too
19:24:43 <arigilmore> jongund will find someone else with another android advice
19:25:06 <arigilmore> Siri has a pixel and can test the SkipTo feature
19:25:50 <arigilmore> jongund turn on talkback with chrome and use swiping and see if you can double tap to open it and make sure you can activate the menu's
19:26:22 <arigilmore> jongund I did notice a big difference between android and IOS. Android with a keyboard willl let you use cursor keys
19:26:36 <arigilmore> Matt_King the arrow keys correct ?
19:26:41 <arigilmore> jongund yes
19:26:52 <arigilmore> Matt_King on IOS you can only use tab keys
19:27:07 <Matt_King> TOPIC: Issue 3193: listbox example with aria-actions
19:27:57 <Matt_King> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3372
19:28:34 <arigilmore> Matt_King didn't see any commits yet. how's it going?
19:28:51 <arigilmore> CurtBellew waiting for something, but can't remember haha
19:29:08 <arigilmore> Matt_King: need to summarize the changes
19:30:59 <arigilmore> Matt_King: in ARIA we had a separate meeting
19:31:45 <arigilmore> CurtBellew has a list of things to implement. Wants to use aria-live when going up and down. Add favorited or starred to the actual name of the option
19:31:56 <arigilmore> CurtBellew how will the buttons get read out
19:32:04 <arigilmore> Matt_King this is a browser bug
19:32:36 <arigilmore> Matt_King concrete changes are changing the name when the item is marked as a favorite and announcing when the item is moved up or down
19:32:57 <arigilmore> Matt_King: you can model from listbox from rearrangable options, which has move up and move down
19:33:36 <arigilmore> Matt_King: aria-live is included in that example which has strings that we previously discussed with the exact announcement we wanted
19:34:01 <arigilmore> jongund: one more thing with the left right keyboard interaction
19:34:28 <arigilmore> Matt_King: during TPAC we will take a look at aria-actions. We will use the PR preview for the meeting
19:34:52 <arigilmore> Siri: question: these interactions are only on hover or focus?
19:35:01 <arigilmore> how does the user know if they never use it?
19:35:25 <arigilmore> Matt_King: this is a discovery thing just like gmail
19:35:53 <arigilmore> Matt_King: normally if you are gonna interact with the list then you will eventually see these interactions
19:36:29 <arigilmore> Matt_King: the goal here is to help people show how aria actions can help them
19:36:58 <arigilmore> CurtBellew thinks he will have time before TPAC
19:37:36 <Matt_King> TOPIC: Issue 3377: Spin button pattern home and end guidance
19:38:00 <Matt_King> GITHUB: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/3377
19:39:05 <arigilmore> Matt_King: there is something about the spinbutton pattern that turns out to be problematic, but we only discovered when writing screen reader tests in the ARIA AT screen reader group
19:39:42 <arigilmore> Matt_King: in the spinbutton pattern is that Home should set the value to Min Value and End should set the value to Max value
19:39:58 <arigilmore> Matt_King: however if you can type into the box then home/end have specific interactions
19:40:35 <arigilmore> Matt_King: support standard editing keys for single line input and i've listed the four lines that discuss this
19:41:06 <arigilmore> Matt_King: the last note states we should not have any javascript editing the values
19:41:45 <arigilmore> Matt_King: historically we thought of this as a slider, but sliders are not capable of typing a value
19:42:28 <arigilmore> jongund to me it seems like the home/end key should change the number rather than the cursor, but one has to win right?
19:42:59 <arigilmore> Matt_King screenreaders are expecting home to do what it normally does with those keys
19:43:52 <arigilmore> Matt_King lets say the spinbutton was a large value with incorrect value you could arrow left, but home should do that for you to go back to the beginnning
19:44:20 <arigilmore> jongund: we should adopt patterns consistent with how screenreaders use the keys. We will have to wait along time before those get updates
19:44:43 <arigilmore> jongund: honoring the path of least resistence then we should go with that
19:46:19 <arigilmore> Matt_King i don't think screenreaders will agree to change the home/end in cusotm spin button because then they will have to have different behaviour in custom spin button vs standard html with input type=number
19:46:54 <arigilmore> Matt_King browsers don't provide any special home/end behaviour
19:47:16 <arigilmore> the home/end move the cursor to the beginning of the input
19:47:50 <arigilmore> Siri but here you are saying when you click home then it will change to the min value and not bring it to the beginning of the input
19:48:10 <arigilmore> Siri it is changing context without informing me
19:48:27 <arigilmore> Matt_King: we should remove that home/end guidance
19:48:56 <arigilmore> Matt_King: the people spinner you will have to page up and down to hit the max/min values
19:49:44 <arigilmore> Matt_King: in a spinner that takes a long range of values then you can just type the min value
19:50:05 <arigilmore> Matt_King would anyone be opposed to removing the home/end guidance
19:50:18 <arigilmore> jongund: thinks its fine. The most logical thing to do
19:50:34 <Siri> +1
19:50:56 <arigilmore> jongund depend on the range there should be some guidance on page up and down
19:51:24 <arigilmore> jongund maybe page up and down should move to a certain percentage of increments. then eventually go to max/min values
19:52:11 <arigilmore> jongund if the range is 0 to 10 then page up/down should go to 0/10 and then if it's like 100000 then we should increment by percentages
19:53:03 <arigilmore> Matt_King page up/down should move at least 10 steps in each direction if the spinner has a very large range then maybe try dividing by 20?
19:54:13 <arigilmore> Siri thinking from user perspective. How will end user know what will page up/down will bring them to. Can we assign a key for min/max
19:54:30 <arigilmore> Matt_King you can type in the min/max. That's how they are different from sliders
19:55:05 <arigilmore> Matt_King: i think i have enough information to at least unblock the ARIA AT project and propose changes to the existing spin button
19:55:30 <arigilmore> Matt_King: that will effect how we change page up/down. We should test this in ARIA AT and will need to update after the spinner changes
19:56:09 <Matt_King> TOPIC: Issue 3373: "Read this first" uses client-side JavaScript
19:56:37 <Matt_King> GITHUB: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/3373
19:57:41 <arigilmore> Matt_King the "read this first" content on the top of each pattern page and other pages and it's being done by client-side javascript. This should not be done by the client side anymore
19:58:05 <arigilmore> Matt_King: we want the content fully controlled not in the build repository
19:58:34 <arigilmore> Matt_King we should control what the content is and where it goes in the repository and the rest is in the build
19:59:57 <arigilmore> Matt_King we already have a template, but i also noticed that when I do a local preview of the example pages the content shows in local preview. That one is being done in a way that the w3c team is happy with, so how is it happening if it's not client side javascript
20:00:40 <arigilmore> howard: the javascipt file that's there for it to render locally it does reconstruct the html and build it on the page
20:01:14 <arigilmore> Matt_King what's the difference between the read this first and the usage warning?
20:01:52 <arigilmore> Matt_King: see's the usage warning locally in the example file
20:02:13 <arigilmore> Howard: not for me...
20:03:27 <arigilmore> Matt_King: is in his local then goes to content then patterns, accordion, examples in a windows. I have skipTo, related links, design pattern, heading H1. in vscode it shows it but not in windows directly
20:04:32 <arigilmore> Matt_King should we do the read this first the same way as usage warning
20:05:19 <arigilmore> Howard: yes, but there is another comment asking if we are comfortable with contributors viewing this
20:06:08 <arigilmore> Matt_King we should do it the same way
20:06:33 <arigilmore> howard: what controls what page it gets used on on for the usage warning
20:07:06 <arigilmore> Howard it's probably being done through App.js
20:07:45 <arigilmore> Howard: App.js is on all the pages
20:08:03 <arigilmore> checks for a certain path
20:08:30 <arigilmore> Matt_King can we have a separate file
20:08:37 <arigilmore> Howard: yes
20:09:03 <arigilmore> zakim, end meeting
20:09:03 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Siri, jongund, arigilmore, CurtBellew
20:09:06 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
20:09:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/11/04-aria-apg-minutes.html Zakim
20:09:14 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, arigilmore; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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20:17:13 <Adam_Page> Adam_Page has joined #aria-apg