12:09:19 RRSAgent has joined #pmwg 12:09:23 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/10/30-pmwg-irc 12:09:23 RRSAgent, make logs Public 12:09:24 Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group 12:09:28 ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Details 2025-10-30: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2025Oct/0035.html 12:09:29 Chair: wendy, susan 12:09:29 Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group Telco 12:09:29 Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2025Oct/0035.html 12:09:54 q+ 12:13:12 the potential member is "Infocomm Media Development Authority for Singapore", https://www.imda.gov.sg 12:41:03 s|the potential member is "Infocomm Media Development Authority for Singapore", https://www.imda.gov.sg|| 12:53:07 SueNeu has joined #pmwg 12:55:00 duga has joined #pmwg 12:55:15 present+ 12:58:21 gpellegrino has joined #pmwg 12:58:53 AvneeshSingh has joined #pmwg 12:59:07 present+ 12:59:08 present+ 12:59:28 toshiakikoike has joined #pmwg 12:59:37 present+ 12:59:50 MasakazuKitahara has joined #pmwg 12:59:52 shiestyle has joined #pmwg 13:00:11 present+ 13:00:22 wendyreid has joined #pmwg 13:00:44 present+ 13:00:47 present+ 13:00:49 matatk has joined #pmwg 13:00:52 George has joined #pmwg 13:00:53 present+ 13:01:01 kimberg has joined #pmwg 13:01:03 mgarrish has joined #pmwg 13:01:19 present+ 13:01:20 JenStrickland has joined #pmwg 13:01:23 present+ 13:01:26 Fredrik has joined #pmwg 13:01:29 present+ 13:01:33 present+ 13:01:47 George has joined #pmwg 13:02:04 present+ 13:02:07 present+ 13:02:39 present+ 13:03:19 DaleRogers has joined #pmwg 13:03:41 Hadrien has joined #pmwg 13:03:49 present+ 13:04:06 scribe+ 13:04:21 present+ 13:05:14 q+ 13:05:14 Topic: APA and PMWG Joint Meeting 13:05:39 CharlesL has joined #pmwg 13:05:48 wendyreid: Goal is a joint meeting with APA. Typically done at TPAC, but that had scheduling issues 13:05:49 ack ivan 13:05:49 present+ 13:06:11 ack gpellegrino 13:06:54 gpellegrino: I have an agenda proposal, I would like extended desc to happen now for schedule reasons 13:07:17 matatk: We have discussed in TAG and APA, I have some ideas 13:07:26 Subtopic: Extended Descriptions 13:08:26 https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/wiki/Standardizing-Extended-Descriptions:-User-Stories,-Testing-Results,-and-Current-Limitations/ 13:08:26 gpellegrino: Brief intro - for descriptions that go beyond alt text (formula, etc) 13:08:43 ... anyone can see them, not just for screen readers 13:08:56 ... we are missing ways to control them 13:09:11 ... there are a few ways to do it, but they all have issues in epub 13:09:25 ... for instance summary details breaks with pagination 13:09:47 ... aria details is more interesting, and works ok when it is all in the same file 13:10:18 ... But we need something that puts the description in one file and the item it describes elsewhere 13:10:31 ... but have a link between them 13:10:46 ... We have footnote and endnote metadata for links 13:11:22 ... 1. How to identify a link goes to an extended desc 13:11:41 ... 2. how can programmatic relationships be maintained cross file 13:11:58 George has joined #pmwg 13:11:59 ... 3. How can we know something is an extended desc when we open a file 13:12:37 matatk: We have some possible solutions, I will give an overview 13:13:02 janina has joined #pmwg 13:13:14 present+ 13:13:32 ... these come from APA, with some ideas from Jeffrey Yaskin (TAG) 13:14:16 ... some sounds a little like the issue with long desc, and why it is now gone (misuse, no support) 13:14:26 ... We need to be aware of those risks 13:14:37 ... ARIA details is still very low support 13:15:14 ... Details and summary come to mind at first, but may not be right 13:15:17 DaleRogers has joined #pmwg 13:15:36 s/Yaskin/Yasskin/ 13:15:50 ... Putting the metadata on the link breaks down on an inter doc link, but maybe `rel` is better for cross document 13:16:00 ... that might preserve the data 13:16:30 Patching in content - discussed as an enhancement of a Declarative Partial Updates CG: 13:16:38 ... There is also a proposal to patch in content 13:16:53 ... which might be interesting to lazy patch in content from other sources 13:17:23 ... APA had the same concerns as reviewed here (misuse, support) 13:18:02 ... We had a different way of viewing the problem. One problem with navigating away is coming back 13:18:50 ... easy to do in JS, but is this a problem with the platform that you need to be able to come to where you were as a general problem for the web 13:19:17 ... One last thing is to get ARIA and TAG feedback 13:19:27 ... And keep APA up to date 13:19:28 q? 13:19:31 q+ 13:19:42 ack AvneeshSingh 13:19:51 AvneeshSingh: Thank you, good overview 13:20:00 q+ 13:20:13 ... main problem is detecting the extended desc via machine 13:20:26 q+ 13:20:33 ack CharlesL 13:20:34 ... We really need the semantics, not a specific mechanism for showing it 13:20:59 CharlesL: What is the APA view on extending DPUB ARIA roles for the extended description? 13:21:06 ack wendyreid 13:21:22 q+ to talk about identifying the extended descriptions (Charles asked about extending DPUB roles) 13:21:50 wendyreid: We still have the RS UA problem. Dynamic insertion of content doesn't really work in a RS due to pagination issues 13:22:21 ... we have a similar issue with footnotes, we solve that with links and popups 13:22:42 ... Goal for extended desc is to have a similar implementation 13:22:53 ... i.e. popups 13:23:09 ack matatk 13:23:09 matatk, you wanted to talk about identifying the extended descriptions (Charles asked about extending DPUB roles) 13:23:15 ... today we have trouble with footnotes as there are multiple implementations 13:23:38 matatk: CharlesL, you suggested extendending DPUB. Seems logical, and there is prior art 13:23:58 ... but should discuss with ARIA if this can be a solution for a wider problem 13:24:10 q+ 13:24:24 ... If you are sometimes talking same doc and sometime different, we should avoid two mechanisms 13:24:34 ... So `rel` still sounds interesting 13:24:39 q+ 13:24:55 rrsagent, who is here 13:24:55 I'm logging. I don't understand 'who is here', ivan. Try /msg RRSAgent help 13:25:21 zakim, who is here 13:25:22 wendyreid, you need to end that query with '?' 13:25:26 zakim, who is here? 13:25:26 Present: SueNeu, duga, AvneeshSingh, toshiakikoike, MasakazuKitahara, wendyreid, gpellegrino, shiestyle, matatk, JenStrickland, kimberg, Fredrik, George, ivan, mgarrish, Hadrien, 13:25:30 ... DaleRogers, CharlesL, janina 13:25:30 On IRC I see DaleRogers, janina, George, CharlesL, Hadrien, Fredrik, JenStrickland, mgarrish, kimberg, matatk, wendyreid, shiestyle, MasakazuKitahara, toshiakikoike, AvneeshSingh, 13:25:30 ... gpellegrino, duga, SueNeu, RRSAgent, Zakim, tzviya, ivan 13:25:36 ... regarding pagination, why not show as popup? But how do I know this is an extended desc to show in the popup 13:26:00 present+ George 13:26:02 q? 13:26:08 ... The document you have covers a lot of use cases, but we might want some that are from outside epub to make sure we have a general solution 13:26:08 ack mgarrish 13:26:29 kimberg has joined #pmwg 13:26:55 mgarrish: That is the concern. And long desc has a lot of baggage, so we would like to avoid that 13:27:07 ... and we do want something that is more broadly applicapable 13:27:38 ... This will probably take more discussion/input and why we are socializing it now 13:27:49 ack AvneeshSingh 13:27:55 ... Is there a broader audience for this? 13:28:08 AvneeshSingh: Extended desc can have broader appeal 13:28:41 ... In epub, for footnote we have aria role on link, and container has its own role 13:29:20 ... The container role might have an aria role, not dpub:aria, which makes it useful across the web 13:29:45 ... The other thing to highlight - whenever we discuss this, we are warned away from the long desc debate 13:29:59 ... We don't want long desc, we just want semantics 13:30:15 q? 13:30:26 ... how can we avoid that comparison? 13:30:27 q+ 13:30:33 q+ 13:30:36 ack: matalk 13:30:46 ack matatk 13:30:54 matatk: I'll have a rough go about differentiatiing from long desc 13:31:16 ... the point you make about identifying content that is currently visible is important 13:31:31 ... it seems like the big issue with long desc was that it wasn't rendered 13:32:25 q+ 13:32:32 ... So making that clear should help. And socializing this is very important to get all feedback. 13:32:51 ... Might be a harder sell in the epub sense, since it is in a different file 13:33:12 ack gpellegrino 13:33:15 q? 13:33:21 ... So there really should be an affordance for all users that this is available 13:33:32 ... So my question is, what should be next steps? 13:33:41 ... Maybe another call with APA? 13:33:41 q+ 13:33:48 ack janina 13:34:28 ack George 13:34:38 janina: In terms of selling programmatic access (the idea of that), it might be useful. If we don't make it discoverable then perhaps it was underspeced. That might be a way to sell it 13:34:49 q+ 13:35:02 George: So the link is always visible. On the web details is great, but has trouble in EPUB 13:35:28 ... in either case, it is always visible to all users, but we need to be clear that the semantics are important and need to be available 13:35:50 ack AvneeshSingh 13:35:56 q+ 13:36:05 ... the understanding that extended desc is there on the link and target is important 13:36:28 AvneeshSingh: Next steps - we need to do one more pass on the document. Need to clarify we are looking for semantics 13:36:55 ... we will also leverage html to make things programmatically available as part of sales pitch 13:37:10 +1 for a meeting with APA after TPAC. 13:37:10 ... Then maybe some of us can join an APA call after TPAC 13:37:14 q+ 13:37:23 ... Is a wiki page ok, or do we need to be more formal 13:37:26 ack JenStrickland 13:38:21 JenStrickland: I see how the semantics is a lovely pairing, but it doesn't work well with epub 13:38:52 ... Does epub ever have a popup? It seems like the semantics needs to be clarified for that 13:39:06 ack matak 13:39:18 ack matatk 13:39:20 Next steps: turn the wiki page into an Explainer () or write one as a markdown file in revision control. 13:39:30 q+ 13:39:37 The HTML popover API is the thing I was thinking of. 13:40:31 matatk: The proposed next step (an explainer) is a good way to list all the rejected approaches (better than a spec) 13:40:49 ... so using an explainer format will help with review since they are familiar with the format 13:40:58 ... and I would be willing to help review 13:41:07 ... then TAG could give some good feedback 13:41:30 ack CharlesL 13:42:30 subtopic: Updates from APA 13:43:04 ack matatk 13:43:50 q+ 13:43:58 matatk: First pronunciation 13:44:09 https://www.w3.org/WAI/about/groups/task-forces/spoken-presentation/ 13:44:14 ... Need to make sure TTS will properly pronounce things 13:44:24 q+ 13:44:38 ... lots of use cases are around education 13:45:38 q- 13:45:41 ... we have explored some tech approaches 13:46:02 ... typically this has leaned on SSML, etc and we haven't had much success 13:46:47 ... there has also been a lot of discussion around CSS speech, some of that might be easier to implement 13:46:59 ... but we are really diving into real use cases first 13:47:45 ... Some tech answers, there may be some low hanging fruit in AT [I think I missed a detail here] 13:47:48 q+ 13:48:00 q- 13:48:05 ... At some point we will share the use cases to get feedback 13:48:08 ack Hadrien 13:48:28 Hadrien: Pronunciation has a lot of solutions, but none are implemented 13:48:30 q+ 13:48:56 q+ 13:49:02 ... another issue is SSML is just really poorly implemented 13:49:30 ... so even if we had the pronunciation, we have no way to use it 13:49:51 ... so we have a risk of coming to an unimplemented solution 13:50:30 https://kb.daisy.org/publishing/docs/text-to-speech/index.html 13:50:30 ack duga 13:50:37 q- 13:50:56 duga: on a previous project we worked on tts for audio book content. We gave up on 13:51:21 …anyway for the the author to provide pronunciation except having the author provide us with a sound file 13:51:28 …of them pronouncing it 13:51:32 q? 13:52:01 q+ 13:52:08 q+ 13:52:10 ack SueNeu 13:52:13 mgarrish: this is a good time to bring it up, big problem in need of solution 13:52:45 SueNeu: I do a lot of mixed language books, specifying language causes a voice change (jarring) 13:52:51 q? 13:52:53 q? 13:52:58 ... so I hope bilingual is on the list 13:53:16 ack shiestyle 13:53:35 shiestyle: Japanese text has ruby for pronunciation, but is also used for other things 13:53:56 ... we don't have a spec for which should be pronounced 13:54:13 ... sometimes both, sometimes base, sometimes ruby 13:54:19 q? 13:54:45 subtopic: symbols 13:54:56 matatk: Next, symbols. You may have seen them as AAC symbols 13:55:06 ... often used to help understand text 13:55:22 ... There is also Bliss symbolics with is entirely symbolic 13:55:40 s/symbolic/symbolic language/ 13:55:46 https://www.w3.org/WAI/about/groups/task-forces/adapt/ 13:56:01 ... there is a dictionary, which is constantly changing (it's a language) 13:56:17 ... You can't just add to web pages as there a number of symbols 13:56:42 ... we are working on a way to specify the symbols, then drop in the user prefered symbol set 13:57:01 ... We are currently looking at ruby to implement this, though that is a little controversial 13:57:20 ... main question is, is ruby supported in EPUB? 13:57:23 q? 13:57:27 q+ 13:57:34 ack duga 13:57:55 q+ 13:57:57 duga: There is ruby support in reading systems that support asian languages 13:58:05 ack George 13:58:16 George: Is there a symbol for extended desc? 13:58:17 q+ 13:58:34 q+ 13:58:37 ack shiestyle 13:58:41 ... seems perfectly logical. Publishers want a visual element for an extended desc 13:59:08 ack janina 13:59:15 shiestyle: RS in Japan all support ruby, as do major players launched in Japan 13:59:55 janina: I am willing to bet that extended desc will have such a symbol, assuming we get AAC fully supported 14:00:40 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:00:42 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/30-pmwg-minutes.html ivan 14:07:14 CharlesL has left #pmwg 14:09:30 LaurentLM has joined #pmwg 14:15:31 janina has left #pmwg 14:33:21 mgarrish has left #pmwg 16:27:26 Zakim has left #pmwg