19:03:07 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-at
19:03:11 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/10/30-aria-at-irc
19:03:14 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
19:03:15 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jugglinmike
19:03:21 <jugglinmike> Topic: ARIA and Assistive Technologies Community Group Weekly Teleconference
19:03:29 <jugglinmike> present+ jugglinmike
19:03:32 <jugglinmike> scribe+ jugglinmike
19:03:41 <carmen> carmen has joined #aria-at
19:03:45 <jugglinmike> present+ carmen
19:03:47 <jugglinmike> present+ dean
19:03:52 <jugglinmike> present+ howard-e
19:04:10 <jugglinmike> present+ ChrisCuellar
19:04:17 <jugglinmike> present+ Joe_Humbert
19:04:25 <jugglinmike> present+ james
19:04:29 <jugglinmike> present+ Matt_King
19:04:46 <jugglinmike> present+ IsaDC
19:05:07 <jugglinmike> present+ mfairchild
19:05:42 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Review agenda and next meeting dates
19:05:44 <jugglinmike> https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/wiki/October-30%2C-2025-Agenda
19:06:30 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Requests for changes to agenda?
19:06:41 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Hearing none, we'll stick with the agenda as planned
19:06:46 <howard-e> howard-e has joined #aria-at
19:06:48 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Next AT Driver Subgroup meeting: Monday November 17?
19:06:56 <howard-e> present+
19:06:58 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Next CG meeting: Wednesday November 5
19:07:02 <jugglinmike> Topic: Current status
19:07:29 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: several test plans have newer versions, but they didn't require any new testing. I corrected some errors in which HTML features they are testing
19:07:43 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Upcoming will be a quantity spin button test plan. IsaDC is still working on that
19:08:05 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: There will be a couple more which will advance to "recommended" soon, and we're getting three new people from Apple engaged in the testing process
19:08:14 <jugglinmike> Topic: App release 1.22
19:08:29 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If you visit the "reports" page in the app right now, you will see two big differences
19:09:34 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The first is highlighting the amazing work that you'll all doing. If you've ever wondered how much work you've actually done, at the top of the reports page and the home page, there is a new banner that shows stats about how many assertion verdicts we've generated, how many commands we've tested, how many tests there are, how many people have contributed, and how much of all that has been done in the past 90 days
19:09:58 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We have 63138 assertion verdicts. That's a lot!
19:10:07 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: 9,493 in the last 90 days
19:10:12 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike: It's over 9,000!!!
19:10:35 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This is motivation for us to see progress. It's also showing value to the community and helping them understand that this is fresh
19:11:43 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The other change: every verdict is associated with an aria-html feature. There there are two new tabls: ARIA features and HTML features. There, you can see the breakdown of this data according to the assertions
19:12:00 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If you click on THOSE, you can get the raw data for that. And all the data is available in CSV format
19:12:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Which is pretty cool for analysis
19:12:34 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: There are still a few mistakes in that data. I'm working on getting that corrected before we highlight this at W3C TPAC during the week of November 10
19:13:06 <jugglinmike> ChrisCuellar: I'm excited to have this out!
19:13:22 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm over the top about this one. This is going to be very impactful at TPAC; I'm positive of that
19:13:51 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: here are other changes in the app; you can find a link to the full change set in the release notes referenced from the agenda
19:14:00 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Thank you to the whole Bocoup team for all the hard work on this release
19:14:17 <jugglinmike> Topic: Issue 1590: Failure to detect conflicts after editing previously generated reports
19:14:25 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-at-app/issues/1590
19:15:09 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I haven't seen any comments on this issue, yet. I wanted to check in because I added some test plans that are in the test queue right now. There are these hidden conflicts where I edited one of the runs but not the other, and so conflicts should be showing up in the test queue, but they're not there
19:15:38 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm pretty sure I know where the conflicts are (because I know what changes I made), but I don't want to erase those until we know the root cause
19:15:58 <jugglinmike> howard-e: If you know where they are and you want to move forward, you can. They are indeed invisible conflicts. There's no worry about data loss.
19:16:22 <jugglinmike> howard-e: The update on what's happening here: it's a little trickier than we initially thought, but we're still hoping to have a pull request out for review by either today or early Monday
19:16:40 <jugglinmike> howard-e: When that change does land, there won't need to be any re-testing. It will be an in-place correction
19:16:44 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Got it, thank you
19:16:51 <jugglinmike> Topic: Running test plan for Tabs with Automatic Activation
19:17:23 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I asked IsaDC to de-prioritize conflict resolution, so that's up to Hadi or I
19:18:16 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I heard back from Hadi--he hasn't been able to contribute recently, and it's not clear if he will be back soon. I've replied to learn if/when he thinks he can return
19:18:23 <jugglinmike> Topic: Running test plan for Tabs with Manual Activation
19:18:31 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: NVDA is done
19:18:47 <jugglinmike> dean: Joe_Humbert and I are still working out one last conflict on VoiceOver
19:19:21 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: In that conflict, the AT moved to the wrong tab. Dean marked the assertion that it said "tab" as "pass", and I marked it as "fail"
19:19:47 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: This is for "shift+j"
19:19:54 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: Should it be "untestable"?
19:20:05 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Did "shift+j" move backwards or forwards?
19:21:15 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We mark it as "untestable" when it goes to completely the wrong place
19:21:57 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I've never heard VoiceOver say "first form element" before. Is that really what it's saying?
19:22:01 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I can double-check...
19:22:21 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So it went to tab 2 of 4. I'm sure we didn't start on tab 3
19:22:29 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: And yes, it says "first form element"
19:22:43 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: When you do the "run test setup", which tab does it focus on?
19:22:46 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: "Carl Anderson"
19:23:07 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Ah, so it doesn't work. In that case, I think you were right to mark this as "untestable"
19:23:13 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: This is test number 10
19:23:25 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I'm assuming that this is probably the same thing for test 12
19:23:44 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That's right
19:24:05 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That is the weirdest VoiceOver output...
19:24:39 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: On Test 13, it travels to some hidden tab panel
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19:24:46 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I observed this, too
19:25:05 <jugglinmike> dean: It's one of the tabs which is present but that is hidden, so it's not supposed to receive focus
19:25:27 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I tested that two times just now, and I'm seeing the behavior consistently
19:25:32 <jugglinmike> dean: Got it; I'll run the test again
19:27:56 <jugglinmike> james: How is the content hidden?
19:28:15 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: It's a tab panel that is hidden with "display: none". And it's empty
19:30:37 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Just use what Joe_Humbert wrote, dean
19:30:44 <jugglinmike> james: What does the setup script do?
19:30:58 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: It focuses the fourth tab
19:31:08 <jugglinmike> s/focuses/activates and focuses/
19:31:33 <jugglinmike> dean: I'll duplicate whatever Joe_Humbert's got on test 13
19:31:48 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I was experiencing 502 errors quite frequently last night
19:32:00 <jugglinmike> dean: And I can't get it to load at all right now
19:33:56 <jugglinmike> james: If you carry on going, does it go to the other three>
19:34:00 <jugglinmike> s/>/?/
19:34:05 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: Yes
19:34:54 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So that is VoiceOver conflicts
19:35:04 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The Bocoup team is working on the 502 errors
19:35:31 <jugglinmike> carmen: We're working on a solution: we're increasing the RAM on the server and considering other options
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19:36:40 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Joe_Humbert and IsaDC have one conflict in the JAWS run
19:37:03 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: It says "tab panel" but doesn't say anything about "tab list". Isn't a group of tab reported as "tab group"?
19:37:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Yes
19:37:56 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: It's test 13 for the "tab" keystroke
19:38:03 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I think I made a mistake
19:38:14 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This assertion is a "MAY" rather than a "SHOULD" or a "MUST"
19:38:24 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think Joe_Humbert got it right
19:38:34 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: Yes, I agree. I'm going to update my results
19:38:56 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This is awesome. Both of the tab test plans are just down to catching up on a few conflicts whose resolution we all agree about
19:39:26 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The next highest priority in the test queue (and where Joe_Humbert has already done a ton of work) is the switch with HTML checkbox
19:39:33 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We're waiting on results from mmoss and dean
19:39:44 <jugglinmike> dean: That's next on my agenda
19:40:02 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Fantastic. You're signed up for both VoiceOver and NVDA, dean. Mmoss is signed up for JAWS
19:40:07 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: mmoss is not present today
19:40:16 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We won't bother talking about two-state checkbox today
19:43:47 <jugglinmike> Topic: Feedback on plan for tabs with manual activation
19:43:51 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/issues/1318
19:44:13 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think this is feedback on the bot. I wanted to verify with IsaDC before moving it to ARIA-AT App
19:44:30 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I think I tagged Carmen, but I'm not sure about that
19:44:42 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: You did tag Carmen, yes
19:44:54 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I don't see the bad output in the issue
19:45:11 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: It should be recorded in the issue because I didn't modify it before
19:45:27 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: it should be in the result
19:45:48 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: the output isn't in the issue
19:50:47 <jugglinmike> Topic: Updating reports to latest screen reader versions
19:51:13 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Joe_Humbert, if you have time to help with VoiceOver: if you go to the tab labeled "automated report updates" in the test queue...
19:51:29 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Oh, my mistake. Not that tab
19:51:42 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: On the other tab, use the filter named "automated updates 2021"
19:52:20 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm looking for VoiceOver ones that I want to prioritize
19:52:28 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: You can send me a list asycnhronously
19:52:44 <jugglinmike> s/2021/(21)/
19:53:56 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I didn't want to update Safari to the new version 26, but I think it will be difficult to go back. I'm guessing the automation system is not using Safari 26, yet
19:54:04 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: we always recommend running the latest version
19:54:17 <jugglinmike> ChrisCuellar: I think updating is okay.
19:54:58 <jugglinmike> james: If the macOS version is 15, but the browser version is 26, that in itself could cause some differences
19:55:00 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: Agreed!
19:55:17 <jugglinmike> james: But I also think that there could be a lot more differences when the Safari version matches the macOS version
19:55:41 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I don't think there's any advantage to updating to Safari 26. If you stay where you are, you'll have the screen reader version that matches the bot right now
19:55:48 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: Okay!
19:56:39 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: If the output is wrong, do I correct the output, or do I file a bug?
19:56:49 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Well, actually, it would be good to file a bug
19:57:16 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: Okay, I'll go through and do all the VoiceOver ones and check the output compared to what my machine outputs, and if there are any discrepancies, I will file an issue
19:57:31 <jugglinmike> Topic: Request for change to alert test plan
19:58:07 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We can't do this issue justice in the three minutes remaining in this meeting. I'll place it at the top of the agenda for next week's meeting (which will be the final meeting before TPAC)
19:58:32 <jugglinmike> Zakim, end the meeting
19:58:32 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been jugglinmike, carmen, dean, howard-e, ChrisCuellar, Joe_Humbert, james, Matt_King, IsaDC, mfairchild
19:58:34 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
19:58:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/30-aria-at-minutes.html Zakim
19:58:43 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
19:58:43 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-at
20:01:50 <jugglinmike> RRSAgent, leave
20:01:50 <RRSAgent> I see no action items