18:05:44 RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg 18:05:48 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/10/28-aria-apg-irc 18:05:48 RRSAgent, make logs Public 18:05:49 Meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force 18:05:49 present+ jugglinmike 18:05:55 scribe+ jugglinmike 18:05:56 howard-e has joined #aria-apg 18:05:58 present+ Adam_Page 18:06:02 present+ howard-e 18:06:07 present+ jongund 18:06:13 present+ siri 18:06:17 present+ Daniel 18:06:45 present+ bryan 18:06:49 present+ 18:06:56 present+ Matt_King 18:07:06 Topic: Setup and Review Agenda 18:07:08 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/October-28%2C-2025-Agenda 18:07:25 Siri has joined #aria-apg 18:07:49 Matt_King: any requests for changes to the agenda? 18:07:59 Matt_King: Hearing none, we'll stick with the agenda as planned 18:08:05 Matt_King: Next meeting: November 4 18:08:23 Matt_King: We will not hold a meeting on November 11 because many of us will be attending TPAC 18:08:39 CurtBellew has joined #aria-apg 18:08:44 present+ 18:08:46 Matt_King: I assume we will meet on November 18, but we may try to get a publication done before TPAC 18:09:03 Topic: Publication planning 18:09:18 Matt_King: I changed the milestone date to Wednesday of next week 18:09:24 jongund has joined #aria-apg 18:09:41 Matt_King: That might be influenced a little bit by this pull request that we'll talk about next (the one regarding aria-actions) 18:09:54 Matt_King: It seems as though we'll have jongund's pull request for skipTo ready 18:10:04 Matt_King: I believe Adam_Page tested that and that it works 18:10:25 Q+ 18:10:34 jongund: If someone could test it with Android, I would appreciate it. The issue also presented on Android and TalkBack, but I don't have an Android device to use for testing 18:11:08 jongund: I'll try to find an Android device 18:11:57 jongund: Do we want information about how the keyboard support does not apply to mobile devices? 18:12:04 q? 18:12:24 jongund: If someone is expecting to use the cursor keys even with keyboard enabled on mobile, it won't work on mobile 18:12:32 Matt_King: We have that disclaimer about mobile on every example page 18:12:45 Matt_King: It makes me wonder, though. Are you saying that it isn't even achievable? 18:13:35 jongund: Well, for example, on skipTo, if you enable keyboard operation--you can tab to a button, but you can only use "enter" (or perhaps it was "space") to activate the button 18:13:42 jongund: The keyboard is a whole different ballgame 18:14:31 jongund: I was going to try with an iPad, but it's strange. You can use the keys in a text area... 18:14:55 Matt_King: I don't think that's something for us to do anything more right now 18:15:10 jongund: At least we have that disclaimer regarding the operation on mobile 18:15:12 ack Daniel 18:15:15 -> https://w3c.zoom.us/j/89658097875?pwd=M2l6TnZUaC9ZNTU3K2hOd1lXQU9IQT09 Comment by Rémi on an alternative approach for not using javascript on the read this first banner 18:15:37 Daniel: Has anyone had a chance to review my issue--where remy has suggested an alternative approach for not using JavaScript injected content 18:15:51 Daniel: We agreed that this wouldn't block the previous publication 18:16:10 Daniel: But it would be nice to provide an answer there, even if we don't want to address it for the next publication, either 18:16:26 Matt_King: I don't want to cause a problem for the next publication... Let me review 18:17:28 Matt_King: This is issue 3373 18:18:47 howard-e: I could take a look. I've been off, so I missed this 18:18:55 howard-e: At first glance, this looks like it could work for us 18:19:00 howard-e: I will reply after this meeting 18:19:28 Matt_King: We'll have to talk separately about whether or not we can get it done for the next publication 18:19:31 jongund has joined #aria-apg 18:19:49 Matt_King: If we could at least get alignment before the next publication, that would help 18:20:37 Topic: Issue 3193: listbox example with aria-actions 18:20:51 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3372 18:21:12 Matt_King: I had a meeting with Sarah Higley and Brett Lewis about this yesterday 18:21:30 Matt_King: One of the questions was around, "why are the button names getting included in the label?" 18:21:41 Matt_King: Sarah offered to review the code of the pull request 18:21:50 Matt_King: She didn't think it was a problem with that code, though 18:22:11 Matt_King: Her suspicion is that the browser is not yet fully implementing the spec 18:22:22 Matt_King: We verified that when the action buttons are hidden, they are not in the name 18:22:59 Matt_King: Because this is name from content, the event that causes the name to be re-calculated is the change in style--away from "display: none" 18:23:15 Matt_King: When Sarah was looking at the code, she agreed that it appeared to be authored correctly 18:23:34 CurtBellew: That's great to know. I was really confused about this. It makes sense that the actions need this information 18:24:07 Matt_King: What we could do for now (unless someone ends up proving otherwise) is just assume that it's a browser bug 18:24:41 Matt_King: Just knowing that the code event that causes the browser to recalculate the name is when you change the "display" CSS property value 18:24:51 Matt_King: Okay, that clears up one thing 18:25:17 Matt_King: There was some feedback that I provided in there related to how the keyboard works--the left and right arrow getting back to the current option 18:25:27 CurtBellew: I was holding off while waiting for a resolution to the question about the name 18:25:50 CurtBellew: I don't know if I'll have time to look at it this week, but I should have time by next week (perhaps as early as this coming Friday) 18:26:16 Matt_King: From a priority standpoint, the most important thing is representing the starred state in the name of the option somehow 18:26:22 Matt_King: We should talk about what should happen 18:26:38 Matt_King: What should the screen reader experience be if you choose the "favorite" option from the actions? 18:26:54 CurtBellew: If we use aria-label to add "favorite", we'll wind up changing the name 18:27:09 Matt_King: If you favorited something, and you up and down arrow through the list, you need to know 18:27:36 CurtBellew: If we use a label, or if we use hidden text... 18:27:55 Matt_King: For a sighted user, when the buttons are not displayed, and you're just looking at the list--how is the "favorited" state shown to the user? 18:28:04 CurtBellew: you don't see it until you have focused 18:28:14 Matt_King: That seems like a shortcoming in the visual design 18:28:29 CurtBellew: There is a selected checkbox that we could replace 18:28:43 Matt_King: Yes. We're not doing multi-select in this example, so the checkbox is useless 18:28:58 Adam_Page: In Gmail, it has a "favorite" toggle that is always visible 18:30:02 CurtBellew: When you hover, the actions appear to the right. 18:30:12 CurtBellew: you typically see this kind of thing to the left of the text 18:30:24 Matt_King: Maybe emulating Gmail is not the most illustrative 18:30:41 Matt_King: Maybe just make a display icon on the left 18:31:29 Adam_Page: I agree. I like having something persistent on the left. And furthermore, having something to display the absence (rather than simply displaying nothing at all) 18:31:56 jongund has joined #aria-apg 18:31:56 Matt_King: It sounds like you're suggesting that the favorite should not be an action. That it should be a visually persistent thing 18:32:01 Adam_Page: Can it be both? 18:32:05 Matt_King: It could 18:32:21 Adam_Page: In a lot of ways, it feels like what I'm suggesting is more like in the tabs example 18:32:39 Adam_Page: This is a more sophisticated design. One action is persistently visible and three others are not 18:32:55 CurtBellew: What would the keyboard interaction be like to designate a favorite? 18:33:23 Siri: When you favorite or do anything on that, when the star is hollow or filled in, it is not shown to the user anymore. Only the selected part of the listbox is shown 18:33:31 Matt_King: That's what we're talking about changing 18:33:46 Siri: I would say to show all the actions available for the selected item 18:34:10 Matt_King: We could make "space" and "enter" be the keyboard shortcut for the favorite, and then the other actions are accessible via the means already documented 18:34:20 CurtBellew: I like that idea 18:34:59 Matt_King: If it's favorited, you would want the icon to be part of the accessible name and not aria-hidden. But if it's not favorited, you would not want that piece of information to be part of the accessible name 18:35:39 CurtBellew: I've built this on top of listbox, but I should be able to make the necessary overrides to implement this behavior 18:35:58 Siri: If the user moves up and down with the arrows, will the user be informed via aria-live? 18:36:10 Matt_King: Ah, if you choose the option to move up or down 18:36:22 Matt_King: I agree; I think aria-live would be a good way to implement that 18:36:32 CurtBellew: I almost forgot about that. Thanks for the reminder, Siri! 18:36:45 present+ 18:37:23 Matt_King: I can net all of this out into a checklist of changes... But only if it will speed you up! 18:37:26 CurtBellew: definitely! 18:37:56 Matt_King: This example was really helpful in that discussion with Brett and Sarah. Even if we don't publish this before TPAC, we can always use the PR preview during TPAC. 18:41:40 Matt_King: I think we've worked out the things that we need to work out for this one for now. I'll make that list of changes for you, CurtBellew 18:41:50 Topic: Guidance on focusability of disabled controls 18:42:07 Subtopic: Issue 2318: Why does the APG advocate that disable components are keyboard reachable? 18:42:13 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2318 18:42:44 Matt_King: Ideally, I would like to get to a place where we feel comfortable closing this. It's been around for some time 18:43:14 Matt_King: There's a lot of comments and a long history in this isse 18:43:18 s/isse/issue/ 18:43:44 Matt_King: The APG was saying that you should always be focusing based on the controls, but the conversation surfaced the idea that you only sometimes do this 18:44:01 Matt_King: But depending on what you read, it's possible to get the impression that you always do it 18:44:19 Matt_King: The question is, who is responsible here. Should the APG be advocating for consistency 18:44:37 Matt_King: In the discussion, people share examples of times when operating systems do or do not show focusable controls 18:45:05 Matt_King: The content of the APG is slightly more aligned with native Windows than native macOS (though there were some examples from native macOS, as well) 18:45:17 Matt_King: I added a final comment with a few questions from last week 18:45:37 Matt_King: The first was: has anything changed? As far as I can tell, the design world still doesn't have a specific answer 18:45:55 Matt_King: The second question is: is there any relevant research that has been conducted since 2022? 18:46:12 Matt_King: I offered to bring it to this group to see if anyone here has anything the can point to related to this 18:46:56 Matt_King: How often does this come up in internal design discussions at the companies represented here? 18:47:05 Matt_King: It comes up at least twice a year where I'm working 18:47:17 Adam_Page: It comes up fairly often for us at Hilton, too 18:47:43 Adam_Page: We err on the side leaving "disabled" things unreachable and then using extra descriptive text describing while they are in the disabled state 18:48:16 CurtBellew: I see where you're coming from Adam_Page. The thing I always get hung up on is that disabled things aren't required to fulfill the minimal contrast requirements 18:48:33 CurtBellew: In theory, there are users who would land on these without being able to understand what it is 18:48:51 CurtBellew: That's part of the reason we take them out of the tab sequence 18:49:16 Adam_Page: That makes sense. We've had a fair amount of success in getting our designers to give disabled things much more contrast 18:49:25 Matt_King: Same here 18:49:52 Matt_King: If you're not going to disable something, then I say "hide it". If it isn't important to be perceived, then make it so no users can perceive it 18:49:57 Adam_Page: Plus one to that 18:50:33 Matt_King: If you need to be aware of the feature and how to access it, then the approach that Adam_Page described is appropriate 18:50:37 s/unreachable/reachable/ 18:50:53 CurtBellew: I agree with out assessments here, but it unfortunately comes down to a case-by-case decision 18:51:26 Matt_King: This issue was raised because maybe it sounds like the APG is advocating too strongly in one direction, or its wording doesn't have the right tone 18:51:45 Siri: In one of the examples, the APG said it was okay to give focus to a non-focusable element 18:52:08 Matt_King: I'm wondering whether or not we should consider any revisions to the current guidance in the APG--even just in tone if not meaning 18:52:41 Matt_King: Or to say, "it's fine the way it is," and close unless someone outside the Task Force has a specific suggestion (in which case, they should raise an issue with that suggestion) 18:53:07 Matt_King: There is a section named "Developing a Keyboard Interface" in the "practices" page 18:53:14 Adam_Page: I'll read that and add a comment to this issue 18:53:20 Matt_King: thanks, Adam_Page 18:53:23 jongund has joined #aria-apg 18:53:33 Matt_King: That gives us a path toward closure on this issue 18:53:40 Topic: Issue 3370: How should keyboard focus be handled for Tabs with aria-disabled? 18:53:47 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/3370 18:54:16 Matt_King: This is actually a really good question, especially for tabs with automatic activation 18:54:33 Matt_King: I am unclear of the use case for a disabled tab 18:54:50 Matt_King: If you have tabs with automatic activation, you arrow across the tab list, and the content of the tab is supposed to appear 18:55:04 Matt_King: If you arrow to a tab that is disabled, then it wouldn't change the content, I think 18:55:12 Matt_King: What would cause a tab to be enabled? 18:55:21 bryan: I never implement tabs that automatically open 18:55:38 Matt_King: But still, in that case, when would you have a tab that is disabled? 18:56:16 Scott O has a disabled tab example here: https://scottaohara.github.io/a11y_tab_widget/tests/disabled-tab.html 18:56:25 bryan: I found that, when I didn't disable tabs, it screwed up the rendering. I was having trouble getting it to render in JAWS. It would announce "tab 1 of five", but when you arrow around, you would only perceive four tabs 18:56:51 bryan: There were times where a client would want to periodically disable certain tabs based on what they had available within their systems 18:57:01 Matt_King: It seems like you would hide them 18:57:18 bryan: yeah, but it was easier to disable them 18:57:31 Adam_Page: It comes down to whether you want a user to understand that there is a disabled tab 18:57:47 Adam_Page: Scott O'Hara shared an example involving a grocery store 18:58:15 Adam_Page: Including a tab named "mangoes - out of stock". In this situation, you would want your customers to know that you generally sell mangoes 18:58:46 Matt_King: It sounds like you could make that message part of the tab panel itself... 18:58:50 Adam_Page: That's true 18:59:24 Matt_King: When you make the first focusable tab receive focus, then the question becomes, "what do you do when the first focusable tab is disabled?" 18:59:57 Matt_King: It says that "if none are selected, then...", but that's not quite right. There should always be a selected tab in a tab set 19:00:32 Matt_King: It sounds like we are aligned, though, that there are cases. I'm going to review the pattern. Based on the information gathered in this meeting, I can write a response 19:01:10 Matt_King: I wonder if we should provide an example of a disabled tab with good contrast in the APG 19:01:16 CurtBellew: That sounds good 19:01:18 Adam_Page: I like that 19:01:20 Siri: Me, too 19:01:45 Matt_King: It doesn't seem like it would be a very big change to one of our "tabs" examples 19:01:59 Zakim, end the meeting 19:01:59 As of this point the attendees have been jugglinmike, Adam_Page, howard-e, jongund, siri, Daniel, bryan, Matt_King, CurtBellew 19:02:02 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 19:02:03 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/28-aria-apg-minutes.html Zakim 19:02:10 I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 19:02:10 Zakim has left #aria-apg 19:02:16 RRSAgent, leave 19:02:16 I see no action items