13:58:41 RRSAgent has joined #wcag2ict 13:58:45 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/10/24-wcag2ict-irc 13:58:45 RRSAgent, make logs Public 13:58:46 Meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference 13:58:46 zakim, clear agenda 13:58:46 agenda cleared 13:58:51 chair: Mary Jo Mueller 13:58:57 rrsagent, make minutes 13:58:59 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/24-wcag2ict-minutes.html maryjom 13:59:06 Zakim, please time speakers at 2 minutes 13:59:06 ok, maryjom 13:59:09 agenda+ 2.4.2 Page Titled 13:59:27 present+ 13:59:33 scribe+ Phil_Day 13:59:52 regrets: Bruce_Bailey 14:00:06 Mike_Pluke has joined #wcag2ict 14:01:14 present+ 14:01:26 loicmn has joined #wcag2ict 14:01:45 present+ 14:03:12 zakim, next item 14:03:12 agendum 1 -- 2.4.2 Page Titled -- taken up [from maryjom] 14:03:37 [Mary Jo sharing screen - displaying Google doc on 2.4.2 page titled] 14:04:13 Mike's comments after proposal 2 were regarding proposal 2. He then added longer comments after proposal 3 14:05:12 Google doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qFOc8cip3tKbH35XsxwYpZXxycLMhVgblbabg5V4UCY/edit?tab=t.0 14:07:38 Daniel made a comment - instead of using "such as", use "examples of ... include, but are not limited to" 14:08:01 Suggest we use this in page titled and in the orientation PR that was done recently. 14:09:01 We may need to debate whether we limit this to page oriented, then we can decide which examples to use 14:09:43 Question: should we limit page titled to textual or page oriented documents/software only? Or should we have it more general 14:09:49 q+ to say that I think that we should not restrict 14:10:14 Mike_Pluke: Wrote comments after Daniel's comments - arguing that we should not restrict the application. 14:10:14 ack loicmn 14:10:14 loicmn, you wanted to say that I think that we should not restrict 14:10:16 loicmn 14:10:57 loicmn: Don't think we need textual / page oriented. We agreed to restrict yesterday to things that have a title attribute or a way to edit it within the commonly used tool. 14:11:34 q+ 14:11:42 Example: JPG can have a title attribute - and can be done by authors - so why would we restrict it? And an image file will probably fail other accessibility requirements - so we don't need to explicit here. 14:11:54 ack Mike_Pluke 14:11:54 ack Mike_Pluke 14:13:01 Mike_Pluke: My comments were on Gregg's example of a folder of photos. The authoring tool - e.g. camera app - doesn't include title - so this type of example would be excluded 14:13:34 maryjom: Content management systems - another example - you often cannot change the filename or title, so again could be excluded as the common authoring tool does not support it. 14:13:48 Mike_Pluke: Think that Gregg's concern on folder of photos was not an issue. 14:14:24 q+ 14:14:29 q? 14:14:44 ack Daniel 14:15:31 q+ 14:15:39 Daniel: Even if you have photos with titles, and some AT can read it out aloud - there is no standardised way of doing this across platforms and systems. So even if we say programmatically determined - this would be excluded as there is no common way of adding the title that is standardised 14:16:24 POLL: Do you agree that we can remove "textual" or "page-oriented" from the text? 14:16:28 +1 14:16:31 +1 14:16:32 +1 14:16:34 +1 14:16:38 ack me 14:16:43 ack Mike_Pluke 14:16:48 ack Mike_Pluke 14:16:53 q- Mike_Pluke 14:17:27 [Mary Jo editing proposal 3 to remove textual / page oriented] 14:17:39 What about the use of metadata, title attribute, title style? 14:17:44 Do we need the word metadata? 14:18:01 POLL: Can we remove "metadata" and only refer to "Title" attribute? 14:18:05 +1 14:18:08 +1 14:18:11 +1 14:18:48 Daniel also happy with removal of the word metadata 14:19:03 Note - changed primary to common to match the earlier text 14:19:59 Current NOTE 14:19:59 NOTE: The “Title” attribute is specified as "editable through that document format’s common editing tools" so that authors can view and edit the Title without requiring specialized or external metadata utilities. The word “common" is included to exclude specialty tools not usually used for editing particular document types. The phrase 14:19:59 “page oriented” excludes movie, image, sound and other files that qualify as non-web documents but not intended to be covered by this requirement because AT does not generally access and expose title attributes for these document types even if present. 14:20:07 Can we remove the last sentence? 14:20:17 POLL: Can we remove the last sentence of the Note regarding "page oriented" examples? 14:20:19 +1 14:20:21 +1 14:20:21 +1 14:20:29 +1 14:20:38 q+ 14:21:49 Mike_Pluke: Will take whatever we have today to add to the EN 14:23:52 Outcome of this can be put into a draft PR - and then Gregg can be invited to give comment - noting that this was the direction taken by the smaller group on Friday in the extra meeting. 14:24:02 maryjom to follow up with Gregg separately to invite input 14:25:02 Proposal 3: Gregg et al variation 14:25:02 - latest edit from today 14:26:32 “Common authoring tools" are the most popular or typical tools used for editing a particular document type. 14:27:25 Daniel: most typical? 14:27:25 “Common authoring tools" are the most typical tools used for editing a particular document type. 14:28:38 “Common authoring tools" are the most readily available tools used for editing a particular document type. 14:29:21 This success criterion is problematic to apply directly to non-web documents through simple word substitution because not all document formats provide support for a programmatically determinable ”Title” attribute, and document titles don't always describe the topic or purpose of the document. File names, as the WCAG 2 Understanding document 14:29:21 allows, also rarely describe the topic or purpose of the document – especially where the document names are not under the author’s control. However, where the document authoring tool or technology provides the capability to supply a title or name for a document, such as page-oriented publishing tools and word processing applications, when the 14:29:21 non-web document utilizes the “Title” attribute to provide a unique title or name inside of each document, and/or when a meaningful file name can be supplied, the user can more easily find it or understand its purpose. This would address the user needs identified in the Intent from Understanding Success Criterion 2.4.2. The following criterion 14:29:21 is recommended as a substitute for the WCAG language: 14:29:23 2.4.2 Non-web Document Titled: Where a non-web document is implemented in a format that provides a programmatically determinable "Title" attribute and is editable using common authoring tools for that document format, the non-web document has a title that describes the name, topic, or purpose. 14:29:23 NOTE: The “Title” attribute is specified as "editable through that document format’s common editing tools" so that authors can view and edit the Title without requiring specialized or external metadata utilities. “Common authoring tools" are the most readily available tools used for editing a particular document type. 14:30:19 Daniel: are we putting in a word substitution - think we should as we say that it applies. 14:30:47 maryjom: There is no web terminology - so what word substitution would we do? 14:31:10 maryjom: We are replacing the whole SC - rather than just substituting words 14:31:31 https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG22/#page-titled 14:31:54 Daniel: If we are replacing the whole thing - we should make it clearer 14:32:29 ... And we should reword to match WCAG2ICT syntax (e.g. don't start "Where a non-web document", but instead "This applies as written when ...") 14:34:22 maryjom: Pointed to the previous paragraph "This success criterion is problematic to apply ..." 14:34:48 Daniel: There seems to be a bit of disconnect between first paragraph and 2nd. 14:35:03 maryjom: Last sentence: "The following criterion is recommended as a substitute for the WCAG language:" 14:35:58 q+ to note a slight change to note 14:36:03 ack Phil_Day 14:36:03 Phil_Day, you wanted to note a slight change to note 14:36:36 Changed common editing tools to common authoring tools 14:36:40 NOTE: The “Title” attribute is specified as "editable through that document format’s common authoring tools" 14:38:02 POLL: Should we incorporate this guidance on applying 2.4.2 to non-web documents? 1) yes, as-is, 2) yes, with changes, 3) no, more work is needed 14:38:12 1 14:38:16 1 14:38:17 1 14:39:02 Latest version of proposal 3: 14:39:02 This success criterion is problematic to apply directly to non-web documents through simple word substitution because not all document formats provide support for a programmatically determinable ”Title” attribute, and document titles don't always describe the topic or purpose of the document. File names, as the WCAG 2 Understanding document 14:39:02 allows, also rarely describe the topic or purpose of the document – especially where the document names are not under the author’s control. However, where the document authoring tool or technology provides the capability to supply a title or name for a document, such as page-oriented publishing tools and word processing applications, when the 14:39:02 non-web document utilizes the “Title” attribute to provide a unique title or name inside of each document, and/or when a meaningful file name can be supplied, the user can more easily find it or understand its purpose. This would address the user needs identified in the Intent from Understanding Success Criterion 2.4.2. The following criterion 14:39:04 is recommended as a substitute for the WCAG language: 14:39:04 2.4.2 Non-web Document Titled: Where a non-web document is implemented in a format that provides a programmatically determinable "Title" attribute and is editable using common authoring tools for that document format, the non-web document has a title that describes the name, topic, or purpose. 14:39:04 NOTE: The “Title” attribute is specified as "editable through that document format’s common authoring tools" so that authors can view and edit the Title without requiring specialized or external metadata utilities. “Common authoring tools" are the most readily available tools used for editing a particular document type. 14:39:05 1 14:41:04 Comparing latest non-web document titled vs softwaare 14:41:11 s/softwaare/software 14:43:23 Proposed change for consistency: 14:43:23 2.4.2 Non-web Document Titled: In non-web documents implemented in a format that provides a programmatically determinable "Title" attribute and is editable using common authoring tools for that document format, the non-web document has a title that describes the name, topic, or purpose. 14:43:31 to match non-web software 14:45:19 Now may wish to change the ending of software to match the latest changes for non-web documents (programmatically determinable "Title" attribute ... has a title that describes the name, topic, or purpose.) 14:47:12 2.4.2 Non-web Software Titled: In non-web software implemented on a platform that provides a programmatically determinable “Title” attributes for windows or screens, the non-web software provides titles that describe the name, topic or purpose of each window or screen. 14:48:44 s/attributes/attribute/ 14:49:38 Daniel: change provide to supports 14:50:03 Also change that for non-web documents 14:51:25 Now these are more consistent with each other (documents and software) 14:51:30 q+ 14:51:35 ack Mike_Pluke 14:52:00 Mike_Pluke: Question. Was there a proposal for adding a NOTE for non-web software? 14:52:08 ... Don't see a need for additional notes - just wanted to check 14:52:20 maryjom: There was no note for non-web software 14:52:38 [Mary Jo just checking the pull request] 14:53:48 POLL: Do you support the adjustments to the language for non-web software and non-web documents for consistency? 14:53:51 +1 14:53:53 +1 14:53:55 +1 14:54:00 +1 14:54:15 Latest edits : 14:54:17 2.4.2 Non-web Software Titled: In non-web software implemented on a platform that supports “Title” attributes for windows or screens, the non-web software provides titles that describe the name, topic or purpose of each window or screen. 14:54:17 2.4.2 Non-web Document Titled: In non-web documents implemented in a format that supports a programmatically determinable "Title" attribute that is editable using common authoring tools for that document format, the non-web document has a title that describes the name, topic, or purpose. 14:54:52 maryjom: Will create a pull request and send to everyone - will call Gregg to get his input, then do a call for consensus 14:55:44 Well done everyone - we have reached consensus on a difficult SC 14:56:09 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:56:11 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/24-wcag2ict-minutes.html Daniel 14:56:37 loicmn has left #wcag2ict 14:56:52 zakim, bye 14:56:52 leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Phil_Day, Mike_Pluke, Daniel 14:56:52 Zakim has left #wcag2ict 16:13:32 maryjom has joined #wcag2ict 16:13:41 rrsagent, bye 16:13:41 I see no action items